Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I posted this in the morph forum but no replys sooo...

If Leucistics are the result of Lesser to Lesser, Lesser to Phantom, Lesser to Mohave and Mohave to Mohave breedings, than aren't these all variations of one morph, like the different lines of Pastel?
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1.1 Balls (1.0 het clown 0.1 normal)
1.1 Kittys and
0.1 WC Human
"I need evaluation...and dinner; and by dinner I don't meen gnome heads!"

No... they aren't.

Ralph hatched out some pretty sweet looking "super phantoms" which proved that the phantom and the mojave were not the same thing. I'm pretty sure you can tell that lessers and mojaves are different as well. They also produce different styles of blue-eyed lucy. If you learn the differences, you can tell the difference between a lesser x phantom lucy and a mojave x mojave lucy.

There's something about their genetic mix that creates a similar effect when combined though, and all we need is a little more time to figure out exactly whats going on...

What were the super Phantoms like? This to me is perhaps the most baffling phenomena in ball pythons.
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1.1 Balls (1.0 het clown 0.1 normal)
1.1 Kittys and
0.1 WC Human
"I need evaluation...and dinner; and by dinner I don't meen gnome heads!"

Here's your super phantom... Clutch 51

http://www.ralphdavisreptiles.com/birthing_record/pythons_10.asp

WOW! I can kind of see now how mixings with the Phantom could produce Lucys but only if it were in double homo form. If you take a Lesser and breed it to a Phantom and they are different genetically, than that is a double het, right? God these Blue eyes are confusing! Thanks for the link. Ralphs birthing records are so extensive that I never get too far in them.
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1.1 Balls (1.0 het clown 0.1 normal)
1.1 Kittys and
0.1 WC Human
"I need evaluation...and dinner; and by dinner I don't meen gnome heads!"

you take a lucistic that was produced by breeding a lesser and a mojave back to a normal? Do you get lessers, mojaves, and normals like you would breeding a bumblebee to a normal. or would you get all mojave/lesser looking animals like if you took a super pastel to a normal? Personally I think the second, but don't know if it has been done.

George Knaack

Clutch 51 on Ralphs Birthing records. Phantom X Lesser Lucy to a normal female produced 1.1 Lessers and 2.1 Phantoms.

http://www.ralphdavisreptiles.com/birthing_record/pythons_6.asp

Just like a bumblebee is a combo of a pastel and a spider a lucy created from a cross is two separte genes. I think you should get.

25% Lucy's
25% Lessers
25% mojaves
25% normals.

a lucy created from a lesser to a lesser should produce all lessers as offspring when breed to a normal.

Should be interesting to see if I'm right and if I am what the difference in price will be for Lucy's based on what created them...

JMHO, not yet proven.

Neil Golli

A double punnet square shows that a bumble bee can create a bumble when breed to a normal.

Break up the squares to make it easier. The bumble bee is a spider and a pastel. Each one when breed to a normal produces 50% of itself. Thus a bumble bee to a normal gets you.

25% bumble bee's
25% Spiders
25% Pastels
25% Normals

Neil Golli

There are still a lot more breedings to be done to be sure but it's looking like there may be a group of mutant alleles (different mutations of the same gene) here. This is different than say a bumblebee where pastel and spider have been proven to be different mutations of different genes. It would be more like stripe and motley in corn snakes. This theory was taken a step further last year when someone from Taiwan using the handle of Hahaman posted the theory that maybe even the dilute gene that turns a lesser into a platy might be yet another mutant allele in this group. I had originally thought platy was some sort of recessive addition to lesser but the platy butters that RDR hatched this year seem to support Hahaman's theory.

Using W for "white gene" the notation might go something like this:

w = the normal version
Wl = the lesser version
Wp = the phantom version
Wm = the mojave version
Wb = the butter version
Wr = the Vin Russo version
wd = the dilute version to make platy – apparently normal or near normal by it’s self

Having them all variations of "w" helps to remind you that (under the Hahaman allele theory) you can't have more than two of them - one from each parent. I'm looking forward to more interesting crosses to keep testing this but so far it holds up to every breeding I know of (which isn't the same as being proven). Here are some of the genotypes for the phenotypes per this theory:

Wl w = lesser
Wl wd = platy
Wl Wp = karma - blue eyed leucistic with a bit of a back stripe
Wl Wl = clean blue eyed leucistic
wd w = normal looking platy offspring used to make more platies (could also use a platy) when combined with lesser.

Under this theory leucistic X normal could not produce normal or leucistic.

I do believe fireball x fireball you get a lucy too.
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RicK @ BbI

Ball Boutique,Inc.
Proud sponsor of this forum

a black-eyed lucy
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red-

>If Leucistics are the result of Lesser to Lesser, Lesser to Phantom, Lesser to Mohave and Mohave to Mohave breedings, than aren't these all variations of one morph, like the different lines of Pastel?

This is a really good question. I've also wondered whether leucistic is a recessive mutant gene that happened to get bred into several stocks before two heterozygotes were mated. As far as I know, nobody has all the answers. It will require a lot of breeding to solve the puzzle.

Paul Hollander

there are already 10X as many lucys than snows out there. maybe more there popping put everywhere
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billy jean king
BugBusters

Same as the SK snow!
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RicK @ BbI

Ball Boutique,Inc.
Proud sponsor of this forum

That may be true (codoms will always produce faster) but with several adult snows ready to breed Double het females... I think you'll be seeing more snows that you'd expect in the next few years.

Also, I'll take a blue eyed white snake that produces 2-3 sweet pattern morphs over a pink eyed (washed out color) snow that makes black snakes and yellow snakes. Don't get me wrong, I love them BOTH, but if I had to only pick one, I'll take blue eyes over pink...

wait just one sec.

when you breed snow to DH there still is only a 25% chance that you'll produce another snow.

if you have a lucy thats a cross of two difference genes like lesser X phantom or lesser X mojavie for example. you'll have a 25% chance of producing lucys when breed to normals.

there are a lot more normals around than DH's thats for sure.

with that said lucys can mass produced with ease snows can not.
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billy jean king
BugBusters

I have to agree with Misskiwi here. Snows will probably hold their value longer (slightly) buuut... the white snake with the blue eyes will always be prettier than the sort of white snake with the creapy pink eyes.
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1.1 Balls (1.0 het clown 0.1 normal)
1.1 Kittys and
0.1 WC Human
"I need evaluation...and dinner; and by dinner I don't meen gnome heads!"

It is all a matter of choice and choice is always a debate. If you spend that kind of money then go with what you prefer best. Just for the record, a VPI Snow is not "sort of white".

"Who wants black snakes or yellow snakes if you breed the double hets together?" 10 years ago everybody wanted them and today they still sell and trade.

In '98 through '99 nobody really wanted Ghosts any more and were selling at $1500 for female...find a female for $1500 today.

Just my two cents...lol

I still like the black eyed better, the eyes are just awesome, black with the red pupil, but the blue eyeds are awesome too.
But it seems that everyone waited years for a lucy ball pythons and now there is how many different versions? Are there any that are 100% completely white with no yellow, or pink stripes down there backs?
thanks
tony butler

Yeah, the creepy pink eyes thing was meant to be somewhat humorous; should of put a LOL. Personally I love them all, just like the Blues a slight bit more. About the VPI Snow, are there any adults yet? What kind of yellowing out is there? I know the VPI Axanthics hold well but they still gain some color, don't they? Anyway one of the things I like about the snow is the lacy, off white pattern. Why make another all white snake, so there can be blue eyed, black eyed and pink eyed patternless white snakes? I think one of the Blue eyes is all white but hopefully someone more knollegable can confirm.
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1.1 Balls (1.0 het clown 0.1 normal)
1.1 Kittys and
0.1 WC Human
"I need evaluation...and dinner; and by dinner I don't meen gnome heads!"