Reptile & Amphibian Forums

So there really is no such thing as het jungle?
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1.3.4 Leopard geckos
(Normie, unnammed, unnamed, unnamed, Amanda Jr, Peaches, Cream, Unnamed)
0.1 Mali Uromastyx
(Cleo)

The pattern morph Jungle is not a simple recessive mutation. It is a line bred mutation. However, you allow purchasers know that a particular hatchling comes from a Jungle lineage.

Simply put...No, a Leo can not be "het" for Jungle...

you wanna explain this to me? I'm concerned. I have sold het stripes, and now you have me worrying about my reputation. Dad was stripe, mom was (outwardly) noramal, and I got several jungles and a stripe from them.
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1.0 Hypo stripe, Het Rainwater from JL (BJ)
1.0 HypoTang from Crested (Apricot)
1.0 Tremper Albino (Cloud)
0.2 Hi-Yellow Leopard gecko (Beatrice, Pepper (het stripe))
0.1 Normal (Freckles)
0.1 SHCT Leopard Gecko (Brite)
0.1 Tangy Mutt Leopard Gecko (Rainbow)
0.1 Tremper Albino (Leucy)
RIP Peaches, Ghost, Bill
Hatched: ~25

aparently line bred means it has to be visual to pass it on.. is this correct? And stripes and jungles would be line bred which would mean it cant be het. SOMEONE TELL ME IF I AM WRONG PLEASe!
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1.3.4 Leopard geckos
(Normie, unnammed, unnamed, unnamed, Amanda Jr, Peaches, Cream, Unnamed)
0.1 Mali Uromastyx
(Cleo)

Line-bred morphs- These are animals that are variations of certain genes. It took generation upon generation to produce a particular pattern or color mutation.

Geckogrl6 - Your description of breeding a Stripe to a Normal proves right their that the mutation is not simple recessive. To be recessive (to be able to say normal offspring are het), breeding a Stripe to a Normal would produce all normals het for Stripe.

It all breaks down to...

GENETICALLY SPEAKING (allele gene locus) - Jungles/Stripes are normals that have ben breed to have a particular pattern
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Q: What does the term 'homozygous' mean?
A: Having the same alleles at a particular gene locus on homologous chromosomes.

Q: What does the term 'heterozygous' (het.) mean?
A: Having different alleles at one or more corresponding chromosomal loci.

Q: What is meant by a gene being recessive?
A: A gene that is phenotypically expressed in the homozygous state but has its expression masked in the presence of a dominant gene.

I had gathered that the one mom (out of 3 bred to the stripe male) had been an unknown het for stripe. If it is line bred, why did I get some totally normal, just a few jungles, and NONE in between? Did get an awful lot of circlebacks, you wanna explain that part?
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1.0 Hypo stripe, Het Rainwater from JL (BJ)
1.0 HypoTang from Crested (Apricot)
1.0 Tremper Albino (Cloud)
0.2 Hi-Yellow Leopard gecko (Beatrice, Pepper (het stripe))
0.1 Normal (Freckles)
0.1 SHCT Leopard Gecko (Brite)
0.1 Tangy Mutt Leopard Gecko (Rainbow)
0.1 Tremper Albino (Leucy)
RIP Peaches, Ghost, Bill
Hatched: ~25

If it is line bred, why did I get some totally normal, just a few jungles, and NONE in between? Did get an awful lot of circlebacks, you wanna explain that part?

Simply put, because it IS a Line Bred variation.

You never know what your going to produce when breeding line bred variations. Their is no guarantee. You could produce all Jungles one season, no Jungles the next and a mix the following year. When dealing with Line Bred variations, you are dealing with more then 2 alleles (of which 2 are in Recessive mutations, which is why their are Homo and Het for a Recessive morph) and this causes such a wide variation in pattern/color.

Their is absolutly nothing wrong with providing a buyer information on the geckos lineage. I would recommend you let a buyer know that a particular Normal hatchling comes from Jungle lineage. The hatchling, however would not be Het.

Just like to share some new info that i have learn .Though you can not get (true het jungle or striped) these have been fix for so long now that they can work in the same manner but more like (possible het) in that you can get jungle or striped out of a nomal that has jungle or striped histroy when bred to another normal with jungle or striped history or a achal jungle or striped but this is not guaranteed (some as possible hets)not like with (resseive type true het)like the albino,patternless,blizzard,ect when that are bred to normals with there genes.Are you getting it or have i lost you if someone gets it and can put it a better way please do.

Just like to share some new info that i have learn .Though you can not get (true het jungle or striped) these have been fix for so long now that they can work in the same manner but more like (possible het) in that you can get jungle or striped out of a nomal that has jungle or striped histroy when bred to another normal with jungle or striped history or a achal jungle or striped but this is not guaranteed (some as possible hets)not like with (resseive type true het)like the albino,patternless,blizzard,ect when that are bred to normals with there genes.Are you getting it or have i lost you if someone gets it and can put it a better way please do.

That is not new information, but you did provide a bit of inaccurate information.

1) You can produce the line bred variation if breeding that mutation to a normal (or any other type of morph) because it isn't a recessive mutation (or CoDom for that matter).

2) A line bred mutation can not be Het or Possible Het in any way shape or form. Their is no "kind of" it simply isn't. The genetics just aren't there.

3) Possible Het means that the particular specimen could carry the alleles required to produce a specific mutation (seen in Het to Het breeding). The only way to tell if a Possible Het is truely a Het is by test breeding. Being that this applies to Recessive mutations, a Jungle/Stripe/Etc. could not produce Possible Het offspring.
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If I by chance find my Cornsnake Morph Guide, I will get into a long-winded discussion about how genes works...But I have to look for the book first!

I'm not saying that they are poss het just the % of you getting a jungle from breeding two normals with jungle history seems to work in the same manner.A breeder here in the uk had to normal leo's that was the result of breeding a jungle to a normal when he back bred the two normals with jungle history back together he got a jungle baby.I know it's just hearsay but he is a credible soure here in the uk.

I'm not saying that they are poss het just the % of you getting a jungle from breeding two normals with jungle history seems to work in the same manner.A breeder here in the uk had to normal leo's that was the result of breeding a jungle to a normal when he back bred the two normals with jungle history back together he got a jungle baby.I know it's just hearsay but he is a credible soure here in the uk.

Gazz, I don't think you're understanding what Possible Het means...

Possible Het (usually from Het to Het breedings) means that the specimen might be Het for a particular mutation. Breeding trials will prove whether the specimen is or isn't Het. Once the breeding trials are complete, the Possible Het would then be labeled Het or not Het. A Possible Het does not stay as such the rest of its life (unless breeding trials are never done)...Once the hidden traits of that Possible Het are proven, that will determine whether or not it is Het. If the Possible Het proves to be a true het, it can produce the mutant offspring...If it proves to not be het, their is no possibility that it is Het, thus it does not carry alleles for the mutation. In no way shape or form would a Possible Het produce mutant offspring unless it is a true het...

Now...What you said about the UK breeder producing a Jungle from Normal parents with Jungle lineage. Yes, that can and does happen. BECAUSE the mutation is line bred. BUT it's not guaranteed (because it is neither Recessive nor CoDom). Which is why I suggest that if Normal offspring is produced from Line Bred parent(s), let the purchaser know of its line bred heritage.

When you outcross line bred variations, the quality of the variation decreases. Breed 2 A Jungles together; you will more then likely produce more A Jungles. Breed an A Jungle to a Normal; you will more then likely produce lower quality Jungles.