Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Does anybody else feel that 99%(I feel I'm being modest here..) of all the "reptile products" specifically manufactured, and marketed to reptiles and amphibians, by such companies as Zoo Med, Exo Terra, T-Rex, et al, are all useless gimmicks- that do nothing to benefit your animal, and at the same time rob you of your money(especially considering that there are much better, and at the same time cheaper alternatives)? Or is it just me that thinks this?

Such ineffective products that come to mind(aside from the poor substrata, caging, and caging accessories that are commonly marketed) that "cater" to reptiles, include 'appetite stimulants', 'shed -ease', 'shed "Bag"', 'skin moisturizer', etc...

All of these products that I mentioned are in my opinion nothing more than 'quick fixes' or temporary solutions to serious husbandry problems and deficiencies, nothing more. I find it strange that several of these products have become ever-so-popular and widely 'accepted' in this hobby, instead of keepers working towards figuring out the reasons why their animals are experiencing such problems in the first place, and correcting these apparent flaws... Rubbing creme on a snake's skin, or putting it in a 'shed bag' to help relive its poor shed, as opposed to correcting the obvious humidity deficiencies within the enclosure-which is causing the shedding problems.... This level of thinking just doesn't make sense to me.

Through my experiences testing and building enclosures for zoos, private keepers, and myself,, I have come to the conclusion that EVERYTHING that any herp really needs in captivity(or at least everything that you cannot use from nature-ie. building supplies, heating and lighting elements,etc) can be purchased at your neighborhood home improvement store(ie. Lowes or Home Depot), of course, with the exception of foods and supplements. In fact, the many different available materials at such improvement stores, are in my opinion, far superior to anything that pet shops sell, specifically catering to reptiles.
-'special' "reptile basking Bulbs"- come on.... when is this going to end?. What a joke!

I'm curious as to what you people have to say about this, as I know that many of you here are Do it yourself'ers, and know such improvement stores like the back of your hand(as I do); while at the same time, I also see many people here who swear by such "reptile products" manufactured by these reptile companies...

I'm just curious to hear some of your opinions on these such products, and thier usefulness/benefits to the animals that we keep in captivity.

Gimmick? or legitimate product? Let's hear some opinions...

Cheers Folks,

Bob
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Treemonitors.com

I generally agree, but do feel that some of the reptile specific lights are unique to what you can buy elsewhere. It does take some effort and convincing to get a light manufacturers to produce a bulb that reduces the UV filters they otherwise put so much effort into.

Please note I said SOME of the reptile specific lights, not all. There is a lot of junk in that market as well. But there is also good stuff for certain application at Home Depot.

Honestly, I don't pay enough attention to the other stuff to even know what's out there. I do use a bit of commercial food and supplements for my Bearded Dragon but that's it.

I think Radiant Heat Panels and Cermic Heat Emitters are great but those are not reptile specific and really don't fit with the theme of your post.

I find it strange that several of these products have become ever-so-popular and widely 'accepted' in this hobby...

I don't see any evidence of the type of products you're describing being widely accepted within the "hobby". In fact, I read numerous posts saying that these products are a waste of money. It's only the relative newbies who come here with a basic question who are interested in these products. I have read this about everything from foggers, to mite treatments, to shed-aids, to incandescent lightbulbs. I don't think the hobby is buying these products, I think it's the guy gal who never ventures outside of their local petshop.

...instead of keepers working towards figuring out the reasons why their animals are experiencing such problems in the first place, and correcting these apparent flaws...

This seems a completely separate discussion from these products. I agree that this is a problem and I often don't like some of the proposed solutions, but it seems to have little to do with the various reptile specific products.

Regardless, I agree that there are a lot of lousy products out there, although I don't think it's the hobby buying them. I also agree that working towards rational solutions for husbandry problems is lacking. However, I don't see the relationship between that problem and the lousy products.

Chris, I think the market works on the laziness of the public. The quick fix, and a turn over of new customers.

But this is no different than any other area of sales. Sad that so many just grab an item, and take it at face value tht it is good, because someone makes a fancy package.

I think we as herp people take greater offense to this because we truley care for our animals. And if one has an animal, care for it. Or don't get it. I've actually cause trouble by refusing to sell an animal to some people.

This is really an involved topic, and pronges into many others. Hard for me to get my ideas across in a forum. It would be nice to sit down with people that think like people in here, to actually talk about these issues.
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Tom

www.herpzilla.com

Being active participants of online fora, such as this one, for many years, I think that many of us forget who makes up the majority of the reptile hobby. The majority of reptile keepers consist of the people who normally buy reptiles on impulse, and rely on pet shops for all their supplies and information. Regardless of their experience/skill level, or general understanding of reptiles, they are still part of this hobby/industry, as they are in fact keeping reptiles. We as 'online hobbyists', who are constantly sharing/exchanging ideas and information with others make up a slim proportion of people who keep reptiles. We have an 'advantage' over them in our understanding(usually), but alas, they are reptile hobbyists too, and whichever way you look at it, there are reptiles under the control of these keepers, just as they are by us.

In your previous post, you mention:

"I don't see any evidence of the type of products you're describing being widely accepted within the "hobby" ".

Just the fact alone that pet shops/reptile specialty shops stock their shelves with this stuff on a regular basis, and continue to restock them, and hence the manufacturer continues to produce them; is evidence enough supporting that there is in fact a demand, and it that these products are widely used and 'accepted'. If nobody purchased these products, would a manufacturer continue to produce them? or would pet shops continue to carry them? I am not necessarily talking about us "more experienced" keepers, but reptile keepers in general. There is much more to the herp hobby, than us online'ers.

"..instead of keepers working towards figuring out the reasons why their animals are experiencing such problems in the first place, and correcting these apparent flaws... "

While yes, I agree that my quote does differ slightly from the initial idea in my original post, and perhaps I should have arranged the post in two separate parts, I do think that they are strongly correlated with one another. The development of such products as shed creme, shed bag, et al (problem-fixing products), have caused many keepers(of varying 'experience' and comprehension levels) to depend on these products whenever a problem should arise with their captives. It is the availability and "campaign" of these products which lure keepers away from rationalizing and figuring out what is causing the problem that they are seeing in the first place(their own husbandry), and instead, these products teach people not to worry about their own husbandry conditions, and instead use a product which 'corrects' the condition at that particular moment of time- without ever correcting the cause for the situation. It is these products which distract keepers from questioning their own husbandry, as it appears to them that they can "fix" things with this single, 'magical' product.

-one month later when the snake goes through yet another bad shed, they simply just apply this 'shed creme' or put the snake into the 'shed bag' to "fix" the problem. I think that these such products are adding to the general lack of understanding, or rationalization of what reptiles require in captivity- physiologically and environmentally speaking, as they teach the keeper absolutely NOTHING.

It is this ignorance and lack of comprehension such as this, which hinders progression in this hobby. While yes, I agree with you that these beliefs and misunderstandings are generally limited to beginner keepers, some of these products were in fact designed and are produced and manufactured by 'big name' breeders/"experts" in their 'field'. And even if it was limited to ONLY beginner hobbyists, bad information is bad information, and as most of you know, bad/wrong information spreads like wildfire in the herp community.. and at many times becomes accepted as "fact" within the hobby(or at least to many people), thus affecting the lives of MANY animals.

My argument here, is that these products do not teach keepers anything about their animals. They fall under the spell of using these products to 'correct' a problem when it occurs, instead of encouraging them to analyze their own husbandry and conditions which they offer their captives. While this train of thought may not pertain to you, or me, or other 'long term', or experienced keepers, we all know that "we" do not make up all of this hobby, and there are millions of inexperienced keepers who take products such as these for granted, instead of asking themselves "why?".

So yes, I think that keeper incompetance/misunderstandings is, at least partially caused by using such products, as it does not offer any possibility for learning...

Cheers,

Bob
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Treemonitors.com

I have a much different concept of hobbyist, which I think explains our different viewpoints on this topic. I have a hard time including the guy/gal who picks up a couple of Anoles or a Leopard Gecko in the term hobbyist. From all of the data I have seen heard these are the people who are buying these products.

Also, many herp supply websites that are geared towards hobbyists have a much different inventory than pet stores, which also feeds my opinion. Again, I don't claim to pay real close attention to this, so I may be off.

This observation simply describes capitalism. Why would anyone not sell a product that is legal and generates a profit (provided they thought of it first)?

Jim

I think Chris said it best but felt to add that if you step back from the hobby and look at it from a buisness stand point. All we have is animals really everything else is an add-on sale. Since the early 90's the reptile hobby as doubled and I think its these add-on sales that kept companys like you mentioned a float. Now that they are saling it is only natural that they sell more add-ons to stay in competition. And Chris was right its the Mom/Dad from a single reptile household buying these products for there kids pet. I don't own a lizard lounge or a fancy cave retreat. It those one pet household that are tring to make the reptile todays Hamster. Personally I never will see those items but as something collecting dust at a petstore. Honestly you can probably compare them to the little air operated items sold for aquariums. Fish enthusists don't own them but the kid across the street haas one in his goldfish tank.
My 2 Cents
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"I am become death, the destroyer of worlds" July 16, 1945 Robert Oppenheimer

I won't go into a long list of object. But some are obvious standard long term husbandry practices gone commercial. Then they look to add to their items they offer. I can deal with basically the same idea in a new package. AGAIN, I say be an educated consumer. I can also deal with over priced items. As in light bulbs. I make my own red bulbs. Some day if I quit being lazy (very iffy) I want to make this type of items as a small business. I have a lot of ideas.

What I hate is a company put a name on a piece of crap item, and promote it when it is harmful. Being a retired cop, I just see thing simply as fraud. But it will not stop. Just try to pass the word on bad items. And shops should NOT carry bad items.

I wish I was 20 again, I'd have a nice setup to make a ton of stuff. Sell at real prices, and make a little cash. Not rape the public.

IMO
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Tom

www.herpzilla.com

What do you use to make your own red bulbs? I used to work in a research lab where we made our own red bulbs to create low-light conditions but for the life of me can't remember what we used. I think it was some sort of relatively common spray paint.

I do remember using various lighting films from the theatre industry over fluorescents. That stuff was handy.

Well, If I give out my secret then I'd have no sales if I ever do a business. What the hay. lol

Easiest way is to use high temp engine spray paint. If I go commercial I'll also acid tip the bulb first to add to adhesion. It takes a bit to CURE, not dry. Run the bulb for a week to avoid any gases.

I have a slightly better idea I'll keep for myself lol. I also tried black, it is very functional, but looks like crap when the bulb is on. But maybe I just need a better paint?

If you need black lights lowes carries 60watt and home depot carries 75watt, about $3. I do think there is some kind of conspiracy in the bulb industry. NO ONE carries red bulbs over 25 watts. Except herp bulbs, now come on, that makes no sense. Except they control an item for a higher priced market. Like boat items use to be.
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Tom

www.herpzilla.com

I have to agree with the majority of what was said.. The stuff like the shed ease and products like that are just out there to turn a profit.. If you read the ingredients on these products and then read the ingredients on a bottle of vasiline lotion they are quite similar.. Slap a herp on the label and raise the price 200%.. Some of the items are pretty good and I do belive research has went into them to make them better for reptiles but others are a spinoff of something else.. "Some" of the prefab food are good I beleive others are junk and shouldent even be on the market...
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www.MGReptiles.com
Professional Reptile Heating Supplies

I should clarify what I wrote in my post to you. The lab I used to work in had painted bulbs before and had the information on how to do so. It was not something I ever did, although my post reads that way. We ended up switching to a commercial product to insure consistency from bulb to bulb or using commercial filters for fluorescent fixtures.

At any rate, I do think it said something about high heat spray paint and somehow prepping the bulb. I don't recall acid dipping.

It's in my nature to look at stuff and find a better or cheaper way to do it. But I love great ideas that do it all too.

I make my own hand sanitizer. Suave hand lotion and 70% alcohol.

granded mine you have to work a bit more, as it has more aloe and lotion in it. But I have convinced myself it is an advanced feature of better skin care lol.
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Tom

www.herpzilla.com

I think you're preaching to the choir here. All of us know these products are junk but as one poster [can't remember who], mentioned the companies that make these products and the people who buy them show that there is a market. A couple of my favorite products [sarcasm] is the turtle water conditioner which apparently is used in lieu of actual water changes or better yet filtration. Also, I can't believe this powdered baby food junk that so many people seem to be buying into as the perfect Rhacodactylus food. Now I know hardly anything about Rhacos but I can't imagine that these lizards aren't eating insects along with fruit and nectar in the wild - yet people are thinking they can provide all the nutritional needs in a bottle.

Anyway, you just have to hope that those impulse buyers eventually stumble upon this resource and hopefully get good information that helps improve their husbandry.

One more thing - not all herp-related items are created equally. I can't count how many times some twit has said that Provent-a-Mite is a ripoff and that you can buy the same stuff at Wal-Mart as some kind of pesticide. Of course if you have read any of those mite threads you may have seen a post by Bob Pound of Pro-Products explaining the very real differences between the two products and the very real dangers. I guess that's a caveat to the whole idea of buying similar products that appear cheaper - just make sure it isn't too good to be true.
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Matt Campbell
25 years herp keeping experience
Full-time zookeeper
Personal collection - 21 snakes (9 genera), 20 lizards (4 genera), 6 chelonians (2 genera)

A few thoughts of my own.

When was the last time you went to the lighting department at Home Depot and got decent information on what the basking temps need to be for your bearded dragon.

I have used a $3.99 pesticide product from Steins for the last 8 years for any mite problems I have had. My snakes breed every year like clockwork and show no ill effects. Provent a mite isn't junk, its just very expensive and there are much cheaper alternatives. Even the Black Knight stuff that people touted as an alternative before the lawsuit apparently removed it from the market was a roach killer that someone decided to use on their snakes.

A lot of people do not want to use tupperware dishes for hide boxes and water dishes. I agree that the animals do not care what they are hidingin and drinking out of but many people want something that looks a little bit nicer.

Not everyone has the time and/or the knowhow or the desire to be a do it yourselfer, and not all resources on line give acurate information for these people to become one. herp specific products make it easier for them to enjoy their animals.

I agree, there is a lot of crap out there aimed at the uninformed. There is also a lot of very useful products and information available. The key is to find someone you trust to give you the honest information

"I agree, there is a lot of crap out there aimed at the uninformed. There is also a lot of very useful products and information available. The key is to find someone you trust to give you the honest information"

I beleive you nailed it right there..

As far as the rhac diets, I think they are a great addition to the animals diet. Note I said ADDITION.. I think all omni anaimals need the live food in their diets.. I have never fed mine just CGD or babyfood, it just isint natural..
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www.MGReptiles.com
Professional Reptile Heating Supplies

'Addition' - yeah, I totally agree. However, I know for a fact that at this month's breeder's expo at Tinley Park, IL there were a lot of Rhac breeders touting how great these geckos were because all you had to do was feed them baby food or this wonderfuly T-Rex stuff. Of course we'll see a repeat of the whole poor nutrition in Green Igs thing in a few years when all of these Rhacs start having problems from getting fed only baby food and no insects.
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Matt Campbell
25 years herp keeping experience
Full-time zookeeper
Personal collection - 21 snakes (9 genera), 20 lizards (4 genera), 6 chelonians (2 genera)

Not to sound harsh but keeping a lizard in a glass box is not natural. I do believe that through science and technology it is possible to develope a dry food that provides the same nutrient levels as live food. In fact, it mat be superior from a nutrient level to a limited diet of one or two types of feeder insects. Having said that, I have a hard time not offering my animals live foods as well as the prepared stuff. In fact, I find it much easier to offer live foods instead of the prepared stuff. The prepared stuff does have a place but I am with you it should probably be used in conjunction with a variety of live foods.

A few thoughts of my own.

When was the last time you went to the lighting department at Home Depot and got decent information on what the basking temps need to be for your bearded dragon.

The problem with the junk being sold is that some can actually kill a reptile. The point he is making is that some stuff is junk . He didnt say all but as time goes by it seems more and more is junk.
I do think the lighting and heating (minus heat rocks) is good.
Guy I know that goes to same gym I go to bought a white striped gecko. He knows I keep reptiles and told me it wasnt eating it was getting thin and weak tough temps were correct.
I went over his house to see the set up. He had one of those new type lizard dishes that vibrate so food looks alive with the dry crickets the same co sells.
The gecko was afraid of the vibrating dish and wasnt interested in freeze dried crckets .
He threw the dish away and the freeze dried junk and bought live crickets. The gecko ate them with gusto.
I wonder how many lizards have died due to junk like this. I think he made an excellent point.

Such ineffective products that come to mind(aside from the poor substrata, caging, and caging accessories that are commonly marketed) that "cater" to reptiles, include 'appetite stimulants', 'shed -ease', 'shed "Bag"', 'skin moisturizer', etc...

Those I find useless and yes they are gimmicks infact I wonder if some actually might do more harm than good.
I recently saw some type of cream that you apply to your snake when its shedding to help it shed being sold at pet store. It had vit E,Aloe vera,natural stuff but none needed and I wonder if infact some of it might irrittate a snake.
Many of the substrates are actually dangerous and if ingested can sicken or kill a reptile ofcourse they are marketed as safe.
The UV bulbs however I disagree I have never found bulbs with type of UV needed for lizards at home depot.
Infact I use night blacklight type bulbs for my snakes and find the regular blacllight bulbs to give off a different type of light spectrum that seems to hurt my eyes after awhile so use reptile "safe" black light bulbs.
Everything else you say is true . I dont mind junk but I do mind products that border on being unsafe .