Reptile & Amphibian Forums

How come people refer to the Derma Ball as having a deformity?

Any non-natural "Twist" in a snakes DNA is a deformity.

Snakes that are missing the gene for melanin, technically have a deformity.

Manipulating the gene pool to create new morphs is enhancing and utilzing deformities for your own pupose.

I think people are jealous of the Derma snake so they criticise it.

Alan

p.s. Green is not your color...

Here's my personal opinion - if a human were born without physical atributes such as hands or skin - it would be considered a deformity. The derma is born without physical attributes of it's make up (pits and scales).

If a person is born with blonde hair as opposed to brown I do not consider them deformed. I would also not consider a human albino or black person or white person to be "deformed" based on their genetic ability or disability to produce a certin amount of coloring.
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Tosha

"Nihil facimus sed id bene facimus"

7.33.0 Ball Python (Harry and Fluffy and gang)
1.0.0 Angolan Python (Anakin Skywalker)
0.0.1 Green Tree Python (Verdi - yeah I know but my kids love the book)
0.2.0 Feline (Pippen and Pandora)
0.0.1 Desert Tortoise (Pope John Paul aka JP )
2.2.1 Fish (1,2,3,4)
0.0.2 frogs rescued from pool skimmer

humm I am bald.....am I deformed?
I have big feet too......am I deformed?
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RicK @ BbI

Ball Boutique,Inc.
Proud sponsor of this forum

Exactly Rick,

I guess with some people beauty (and deformties) are really only skin deep.

I guess my niece who was born with one arm is deformed and maybe (like some have previously stated) she should be put in the freezer with the Derma Ball. Then bald people, then blind people.......

The way I see it is the guy who owns the Derma Ball posted a pic. of his very beautiful and unusual snake and some jealous people told him it was deformed, that they didn't want the inferior genes mixing with their perfect ones, and he should kill his animal, even though he might love it and it is beautiful in his eyes.

Alan

If I had the money it would be MINE!
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RicK @ BbI

Ball Boutique,Inc.
Proud sponsor of this forum

I assume you were born with hair and feet so - no. Now if you were missing say your nose or growing a third eye - then lets talk.
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Tosha

"Nihil facimus sed id bene facimus"

7.33.0 Ball Python (Harry and Fluffy and gang)
1.0.0 Angolan Python (Anakin Skywalker)
0.0.1 Green Tree Python (Verdi - yeah I know but my kids love the book)
0.2.0 Feline (Pippen and Pandora)
0.0.1 Desert Tortoise (Pope John Paul aka JP )
2.2.1 Fish (1,2,3,4)
0.0.2 frogs rescued from pool skimmer

No I had hair but it is gone.
So genetic engineering......sad!
I am not normal. Why do men get hair pieces? To look normal.
But how many times do you hear there goes that guy with hair? Or there goes the bald headed guy......BTW All people know their mother but I know who my dad is too! LOL Think about that one!
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RicK @ BbI

Ball Boutique,Inc.
Proud sponsor of this forum

so how 'bout if I make him a scale piece...would that please everyone?
Jeremy
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Isn't it cooler that serpent's don't walk anymore?
(Genesis 3:14)

kool
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RicK @ BbI

Ball Boutique,Inc.
Proud sponsor of this forum

Wow, you sound like a real looker....

Was when I was younger.
To some they guess my age 7-15 years younger than I am.
I am 60 and proud of it!
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RicK @ BbI

Ball Boutique,Inc.
Proud sponsor of this forum

Varying patterns and pigments is VERY different from missing heat pits. That animal is missing an organ.

Joel
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0.1 Ball Python
0.1 Okeetee Corn Snake
1.0 Leopard Gecko

yes rick..you are deformed.

My dad always told me I didn't have common sense...a very vital trait for the survival of humans. I too am deformed. Hopefully it's not dominant and I don't pass it on to my kids.
Jeremy
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Isn't it cooler that serpent's don't walk anymore?
(Genesis 3:14)

Off with your head Master Jeremy!!

can't be an organ....must just be that scales form a cup to trap and transfer heat to the soft skin inside the "pit"......and must not really go into the snakes' body as one would think...as in making it an organ with a hole that goes inside to nerve centers........

it eats and I bet it sences heat too with it's face.not 100% as well as a normal ball no....but like let's take a wild guess and say 25% of the heat that a normal one does..

it's in a plastic box....it doesn't need heat pits.....

I personally saw it..it's nice..maybe 1000 grams by now??? and I would take it.........you bet....

....imagine........coral glow pastel derma ball.......look just like a popcicle..........?.......mmmmmmmmbanana and rasberry candy?..........

it is odd......it is wierd........it is sweet.......

*(and I do think we should freeze/kill alot of freaky stuff ....yes.even humans).....
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FOR THE 10TH TIME A HEAT PIT IS A HOLLOWED SCALE EXPOSING THE EXACT SKIN THAT YOU SEE ON THE DERMA, IN FACT THERE IS MORE AREA OF SENSITIVITY AND THAT IS WHY I FEEL THE ANIMAL NEVER MISSES A PREY ITEM.

AGAIN
JUSTIN

Black Pastels have shown a bulbous nose trait...would you say Black Pastels are deformed also?

Should we throw the ones that look too ugly in the freezer also with the Derma Ball?

Alan

I think it's a deformity...and I like it anyway.
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1.1 Balls (1.0 het clown 0.1 normal)
1.1 Kittys and
0.1 WC Human
"I need evaluation...and dinner; and by dinner I don't meen gnome heads!"

Pamela Anderson has deformities and I lika them just fine too.

The Derma Ball is unique and beautiful in its own way.

Albinos are unique and beautiful in their own way.

The gentleman was gracious for sharing the pic. of the Derma Ball.

Alan

I'm partial to Angelina Joli's lip deformity myself LOL
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1.1 Balls (1.0 het clown 0.1 normal)
1.1 Kittys and
0.1 WC Human
"I need evaluation...and dinner; and by dinner I don't meen gnome heads!"

A big nose is not the same as being born without one.
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Tosha

"Nihil facimus sed id bene facimus"

7.33.0 Ball Python (Harry and Fluffy and gang)
1.0.0 Angolan Python (Anakin Skywalker)
0.0.1 Green Tree Python (Verdi - yeah I know but my kids love the book)
0.2.0 Feline (Pippen and Pandora)
0.0.1 Desert Tortoise (Pope John Paul aka JP )
2.2.1 Fish (1,2,3,4)
0.0.2 frogs rescued from pool skimmer

A genetic defect is a genetic defect.

Black Pastels have a physical defect...same as the Derma Ball...same as the Albino Ball.

Alan

Wrong, a defect means a detrimental abnormality. Blue eyes are not, Blonde hair is not, a color variation is not detrimental. But misiing scales are and so is missing pits, as would a missing arm or being born a hemaphrodyte. Albinism and the other normal pattern anomalies are just variations.

Like I said..how do you know that Albino snakes do not have trouble thermo-regulating?

If this is the case then we should stop breeding Albinos as well?

Alan

n/p

You are wrong on so many levels here, firstly in order to determine whether or not a mutation is detrimental you must compare it with the environment in which it is kept.

You use the example of blue eyes and blond hair. Well if you take in the nature of the habitat where the blonde genes mostly come from (Scandinavia, Britain{red is a form of blonde, more like T albino}etc.) then you would see that in this setting, blonde and blue eyes is not detrimental in the least, since sun exposure is below average for the world. But place a blond and blue eyed person in Africa, and you can see where I am going with this, that mutation is now detrimental.

Same is true when applied to the Derma ball, in the wild the mutation would be detrimental to the animal in most of the cases, although it is possible that this mutation could prove to allow the animal to thrive in a niche much different than the "normal" ball python. But what would most likely be detrimental in the wild is much different than what is detrimental in captivity.

Breeders breed things that are "unique" and "different" and those animals carrying the trait are much more likely to become breeders themselves when they mature. This is selection at work, otherwise known as evolution, and in terms of evolution this animal is successful (successful in evolutionary terms means reaching maturity and succesfully producing offspring).

Think that is all,
Dan

Dan,
if reproduction is the definition of evolutionary success, I'm a complete failure. I have yet to reproduce. Some might argue that's natural selection at it's finest...I'd like to think that I'm a evolutionary successful progedy...Success waiting to happen...I hope my girlfriend thinks so too. here's to hopin'!
Jeremy
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Isn't it cooler that serpent's don't walk anymore?
(Genesis 3:14)

Yep in terms of evolution, you are a failure.

When it comes right down to it, the whole purpose of every living thing is to pass on its genetic material to its offspring, and if put that way then you and me both are failures (hell you are even a step ahead of me, no girlfriend here).

Have a good one,
Dan

I have actually never seen a black pastel with any big nose - so I am going to assume this is something new, something you are making up or just something so small it's not really noticable. Not that snakes don't have deviations - tail sizes aren't always consistant, eye sizes aren't always consitant - but hey - you know what - they are always there.
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Tosha

"Nihil facimus sed id bene facimus"

7.33.0 Ball Python (Harry and Fluffy and gang)
1.0.0 Angolan Python (Anakin Skywalker)
0.0.1 Green Tree Python (Verdi - yeah I know but my kids love the book)
0.2.0 Feline (Pippen and Pandora)
0.0.1 Desert Tortoise (Pope John Paul aka JP )
2.2.1 Fish (1,2,3,4)
0.0.2 frogs rescued from pool skimmer

"eye sizes aren't always consitant - but hey - you know what - they are always there."

Bet I can find some albino boas that will disagree with you on that statement-LOL, sorry, bad jab at the ol' boas! Very True though. Take care!

Paul

I still disagree with the idea that it's the heat pits that give the snake it's ability to sense temperatures. Thats like saying that it's the hole that gives a doughnut it's flavor. If anything, missing all those scales would make the snake more sensitive to temperature variations.

Scales are made of Keratin, same as hair. Would you consider a hairless human to be deformed?

Mark

>>Here's my personal opinion - if a human were born without physical atributes such as hands or skin - it would be considered a deformity. The derma is born without physical attributes of it's make up (pits and scales).
>>
>>If a person is born with blonde hair as opposed to brown I do not consider them deformed. I would also not consider a human albino or black person or white person to be "deformed" based on their genetic ability or disability to produce a certin amount of coloring.
>>-----
>>Tosha
>>
>>"Nihil facimus sed id bene facimus"
>>
>>7.33.0 Ball Python (Harry and Fluffy and gang)
>>1.0.0 Angolan Python (Anakin Skywalker)
>>0.0.1 Green Tree Python (Verdi - yeah I know but my kids love the book)
>>0.2.0 Feline (Pippen and Pandora)
>>0.0.1 Desert Tortoise (Pope John Paul aka JP )
>>2.2.1 Fish (1,2,3,4)
>>0.0.2 frogs rescued from pool skimmer

I think we already established that missing hair is already a deformity that needs to be exterminated from our species...I think they already started culling bald people in some parts of southern california.
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Isn't it cooler that serpent's don't walk anymore?
(Genesis 3:14)

Irregardless of if there are problems with the fact that the snake does not have pits or is missing half it's scales - it is a deformity as it is not the natural form of the ball python. You can argue this in circles but that is what it is by definition good bad or otherwise. Whether or not it can survive or live a normal life or reproduce or irregardless of whether or not you beleive it looks cool - it is a malformation, a deformity, disfiguration. Plain and simple.

Yes - I would think a person who is unable to produce hair would have some sort deformity as it is part of mammalian make up. But I'm not talking just someone thats gone bald - but someone that was born without the ability to produce hair - on their head, eyebrown, eye lashes, body hair the works.
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Tosha

"Nihil facimus sed id bene facimus"

7.33.0 Ball Python (Harry and Fluffy and gang)
1.0.0 Angolan Python (Anakin Skywalker)
0.0.1 Green Tree Python (Verdi - yeah I know but my kids love the book)
0.2.0 Feline (Pippen and Pandora)
0.0.1 Desert Tortoise (Pope John Paul aka JP )
2.2.1 Fish (1,2,3,4)
0.0.2 frogs rescued from pool skimmer

So is every morph out there!!! Do you really not understand that? If all other morphs were good for bp's they would be all over in the wild dont ya think.

Form as in the structure - morphs have all the appropriate sturcture of a normal ball python.
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Tosha

"Nihil facimus sed id bene facimus"

7.33.0 Ball Python (Harry and Fluffy and gang)
1.0.0 Angolan Python (Anakin Skywalker)
0.0.1 Green Tree Python (Verdi - yeah I know but my kids love the book)
0.2.0 Feline (Pippen and Pandora)
0.0.1 Desert Tortoise (Pope John Paul aka JP )
2.2.1 Fish (1,2,3,4)
0.0.2 frogs rescued from pool skimmer

n/p

Morphs are a different gene which affects thier phenotypes not thier physical attributes. Apparently that's something you cannot graps.
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Tosha

"Nihil facimus sed id bene facimus"

7.33.0 Ball Python (Harry and Fluffy and gang)
1.0.0 Angolan Python (Anakin Skywalker)
0.0.1 Green Tree Python (Verdi - yeah I know but my kids love the book)
0.2.0 Feline (Pippen and Pandora)
0.0.1 Desert Tortoise (Pope John Paul aka JP )
2.2.1 Fish (1,2,3,4)
0.0.2 frogs rescued from pool skimmer

Actually Tosha...

Main Entry: phe·no·type
Pronunciation: 'fE-n&-"tIp
Function: noun
Etymology: German Phänotypus, from Greek phainein to show typos type
: the visible properties of an organism that are produced by the interaction of the genotype and the environment

- From Webster.com

As you can see, phenotype is anything that is visibly displayed from the genetic code. As in, a het piebald, het clown, or het albino's phenotype is normal, they carry the gene but it is not expressed (and yes I know that there are markers for piebald and albino but they are not 100% accurate). The phenotype for the Derma whether it is homozygous derma, or heterozygous would be "Derma" plain and simple.

Also from an above post, you stated that color morphs are not structural mutations, and in this you are wrong. The structure of their pigment producing cells is different, making it a color morph. Proper term would probably be "structural" morph for these types of animals, but couldn't you say that about the clown gene as well, since those animals definitely have more of an angolan texture than a ball.

Just food for thought,
Dan

Then by your definition there are a lot of other animals in the pet trade that are 'deformed' Normal ferel dogs have pointed noses, upright pointed ears and curly tails. Are dogs with floppy ears, pug noses and straight tails then considered deformed? What about hairless or rex rats? What about Manx cats? What about darn near every type of goldfish in existance? All of these are mutations that affect form and not just color. I'm not saying that you are wrong to call it a deformity, I'm just saying that if you consider scaleless snakes to be deformed, then color mutations should also be considered deformities as well, after all they are not 'normal' when compaired to the average wild ball python.

Mark

I'm not applying any conotation positive or negative towards the term - but a deformity is any deviation from the normal form or structure. I'm not talking a different or mutant gene or a variation of a trait, but the simple structure of the animal (eyes ears nose mouth body limbs, etc). Would you consider a dog with - say - no ears - a flat beaver like tail or two noses deformed? What about a ball python with no eyes or one born without a tail? Just because the no pits or scales might make it cool looking to someone does not make it any less of a deformity.

The poster wanted to know why it was refered to as a deformity and I explained. If he or anyone eles wants to assume that automatically means it's negative then that's thier opinion, but it is not normal ball python form and structure - therefore it is a deformity. And thats all I've been saying.

I personally don't care for it wouldn't want one - there are those that do - so what - life goes on I don't care - my dream ball would be a purple one - if the only way to get a purple ball was to breed it to the Derma I'd live without it - but everyone is entitled to their opinion.
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Tosha

"Nihil facimus sed id bene facimus"

7.33.0 Ball Python (Harry and Fluffy and gang)
1.0.0 Angolan Python (Anakin Skywalker)
0.0.1 Green Tree Python (Verdi - yeah I know but my kids love the book)
0.2.0 Feline (Pippen and Pandora)
0.0.1 Desert Tortoise (Pope John Paul aka JP )
2.2.1 Fish (1,2,3,4)
0.0.2 frogs rescued from pool skimmer

Thank you Mark...you are Spot On!!!

Alan

You obviously have no clue. A missing gene is not what happens in Albinism or any other recessive or co-dom trait. it is a variation in the alleles of the gene which is still present. Missing a pigment is not detrimental directly to the health of the animal. Missing scales are, scales help the animal retain moisture, making it less susceptible to dehydration. Thermoreptive pits help the animal to feed and know its surroundings properly which is completely different. If he like it thats fine, but I know the only reason he does is the dollar signs he connects to it. There is no love for the animal involved. An animal like that should never be propagated. To say someone is jealous is wholly ignorant on your part I find it to be particularly disturbing that someone would want to propagate such a detrimentally handicapped animal. And hell no I am not jealous, disturbed yes, jealous no.

If it doesn't have heat receptors (news to me) than how does it eat? Can it feed by sight alone? I hope he isn't force feeding or any thing like that.
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1.1 Balls (1.0 het clown 0.1 normal)
1.1 Kittys and
0.1 WC Human
"I need evaluation...and dinner; and by dinner I don't meen gnome heads!"

A few months back didnt reptiles magazine have an article of a water snake or some other colubrid that had the same characteristics of the derma ball(except for the missing heat pits it doesnt have any to begin with) it had almost no scales at all?, and in the another issue they had a pic of a burmese python that had to be assisted out of its egg and it was discovered it had no head, and they had to humanely end it life? Also I think that the derma ball, even if it is a deformity should not be killed, if it will survive then let it be,
thanks
tony butler

I keep reeding that people have said to kill it, where? I havn't read that but if they did that isn't nice. It isn't hurting anyone and it seems to be doing ok.
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1.1 Balls (1.0 het clown 0.1 normal)
1.1 Kittys and
0.1 WC Human
"I need evaluation...and dinner; and by dinner I don't meen gnome heads!"

AMEN! Well said!

I didn’t think there was any doubt that it’s deformed. It doesn’t have scales or pits for Pete’s sake! A person without skin would be deformed!

Deformity- the condition of being disfigured or badly formed. A permanent change from normal body structure. Something that has a shape not normal for its kind or nature.

Color is one thing, but a structural disfigurement is something completely different. Pardon my harshness, but some people just need to get their heads out of their rears and face reality. It’s a cool snake, but there’s something very wrong with it. Having it as a pet is one thing, but breeding it to get more like it is a very different subject. Should it be euthanized? No. If it’s healthy and eating and living a good life, why do it in? But why would anyone want to breed this animal to get more Derma balls is beyond me. In this case, with all due respect to the breeder, it’s all about the money.

sss
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1.1 Balls (1.0 het clown 0.1 normal)
1.1 Kittys and
0.1 WC Human
"I need evaluation...and dinner; and by dinner I don't meen gnome heads!"

Gain! So trying to get him to "see the light" and actually care (mentally) for his animal is null & void. All that snake is to the "Breeder", is a big fat DOLLAR SIGN!

To rehash this again........Remember the "Twisty Kat"
Just because it can be done, doesn't mean it should be done.

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In Loving Memory of the best Brother God gave me
Sgt. Arnold DuPlantier II
(Army National Guard, Charlie Rock Co.)
06/03/1979-06/22/2005
Support Our Troops

>>Missing a pigment is not detrimental directly to the health of the animal.
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Isn't it cooler that serpent's don't walk anymore?
(Genesis 3:14)

And maybe Albino Balls can't thermo-regulate as well as the Derma Ball can?

I guess you play God selectively.

Alan

Albinos have been found as adults in the wild, has the Derma?
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1.1 Balls (1.0 het clown 0.1 normal)
1.1 Kittys and
0.1 WC Human
"I need evaluation...and dinner; and by dinner I don't meen gnome heads!"

I am glad this thread is so active. reading everyones posts is modifying my opin on the matter. Discorse is great.
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1.1 Balls (1.0 het clown 0.1 normal)
1.1 Kittys and
0.1 WC Human
"I need evaluation...and dinner; and by dinner I don't meen gnome heads!"

Thermoregulation with missing scales is playing russian roulette without a much more than normal need for water because of increased risk of dehydration. Something an albino would have no worry about. And since balls are nocturnal the color of the animals skin would have no baring on the sun since it would rarely encounter it anyway.

Hold up, this thing thermoregulates? Is it Warmblooded?!?!?!?!?!
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1.1 Balls (1.0 het clown 0.1 normal)
1.1 Kittys and
0.1 WC Human
"I need evaluation...and dinner; and by dinner I don't meen gnome heads!"

np
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Isn't it cooler that serpent's don't walk anymore?
(Genesis 3:14)

My understanding is that warm bloods thermoregulate and colds don't, which is why they are the temperature of their suroundings.
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1.1 Balls (1.0 het clown 0.1 normal)
1.1 Kittys and
0.1 WC Human
"I need evaluation...and dinner; and by dinner I don't meen gnome heads!"

What used to be called "cold blooded" is now being taught as animals that "thermoregulate". We don't have to DO anything to regulate our temperature. Reptiles do...They're not COLD blooded. They can actually have warm blood, but they have to regulate or warm it for themselves. Therefore, what used to be referred to as cold-blooded animals are now being referred to as "thermoregulating" animals. Just a technicality that's kinda stupid to argue over (not that we are), but it's what's being taught now.
Jeremy
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Isn't it cooler that serpent's don't walk anymore?
(Genesis 3:14)

I'm not arguing, just debating and learning. Sorry if I came off that way.
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1.1 Balls (1.0 het clown 0.1 normal)
1.1 Kittys and
0.1 WC Human
"I need evaluation...and dinner; and by dinner I don't meen gnome heads!"

That's where i am too (that's why I specified we weren't arguing). It's just discussing...I just learned about the new "labeling" in our school's biology text book last spring (I don't teach science). That's the only reason I know. Don't worry, I didn't ever sense we were arguing (maybe that's because I'm deformed and don't have my argue pits).
Jeremy
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Isn't it cooler that serpent's don't walk anymore?
(Genesis 3:14)

Thermoregualtion is the ability to control your temperature from the change of your surroundings ie; from one end of the cage to the other is a teprature gradiant so the animal can thermoregulate.

Thermoregulation means regulating heat. There are two ways to do this. You are either an ectotherm (formerly "cold blooded" or an endotherm (formerly "warm blooded". We do thermoregulate because we can control the temperature of our bodies.

No, they are cold-blooded, thats the point. Albinos are unable to absorb heat as well because of their white coloring and do not warm up as well.

This is very detrimental to its health, but people on this board are willing to over-look the poor freezing Albino cause they have one. But, in the case of the Derma, they are all concerned by the freak of nature. Why? 'cause they dont have one!

Alan

Ther have been a few ADULT albino balls found in the wild, and the color does not affect thermoregulation where the sun is not an issue so again you are wrong. The Derma on the other hand was from a captive hatced clutch and would not have survived in the wild.

"Albinos are unable to absorb heat as well because of their white coloring and do not warm up as well."

What does white coloring have to do with the snakes ability to warm up?? Do you think snakes only thermoregulate in nature with the sun?? What about large rocks that turn into heat sources all through the night?? Would the color of the animal have an effect on how the heat is absorbed?? Do albinos have a different density than normals?? If a "Derma Ball" doesn't have heat pits, how can it figure out where the "Hot spot" is?? I think it looks great, I don't believe it should be bred into other animals though.. Do we breed 2 headed and 1 eyed snakes back into the gene population? (some do to make MONEY, but most don't because the animal is genetically unsound) And besides the point, it probly won't even be passed genetically.
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Joe Lydon

OK...take two...
"Missing a pigment is not detrimental directly to the health of the animal."
I do think that an albino would not survive as long in the wild as a normal bp...and in MY opinions, being eaten by a predator is directly detramental to the health of ANY animal.

The thing is, we selectively breed bps and morphs because WE like them (it sure isn't b/c it's good for the animals). If you like a morph, and can care for it and WILL care for it, breed it. You just have to be responsible. Just like if you breed too many and then release them in the wild...it's irresponsible. If you breed them, keep them, and love them (tuck them in at night) do it...that's why ALL OF US breed them.
Jeremy
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Isn't it cooler that serpent's don't walk anymore?
(Genesis 3:14)

How would breeding the derma affect the offspring, I mean when a midget couple has a child it usually isnt a midget, or if someone is born without the ability to speak or hear the offspring can, my friend allens parents have been deaf and unable to speak since birth he speaks and hears fine,
If I offended anyone by saying Midget, I apologize, I don't know how to put it into words that wont be taken offensivly,
sorry
tony butler

Missing a pigment is not detrimental to there health in the wild. I think you might get a very different answer, and just so you know I really dont like the animal all that much but I dont see what makes it any different from breeding for any other morph. None of them are going back to the wild so what does it really matter? The funniest part is in a few years you will all be selling hets for Derma LMAO.

Just my input before this gets out of control...

Think about this, is it possible that it does have normal heat receptors? I mean, is it possible that there are only "heat pits" because of the thickened scales on the nose? Afterall, who knows what the heat receptors would look like with no scales? Maybe it is only skin with heat receptors working from under the surface? This totally makes sence if you think about it because why else would there be an absence of scales in where the heat pits are, except to allow the heat to travel up against the sensitive skin.

I'm no biologist, but i think it is a possiblity. I think it is a cool snake. Time will tell if it continues to be hardy but I say at least find out what genetics are at work before you write it off. It is obviously very capable of living and i would never kill a snake that isn't already doomed from the start.

It is not that there is just no scales, the actual pits are completely missing. The scales missing alone are sufficient reason to never ever propagate such an animal. Keep it as a pet but NEVER propagate it.

I am aware that the "pits" are missing. My point is that maybe that is only because the scales are missing an they heat receptors may still be completely intact.... Making skin the ONLY organ that this animal is missing.

I see no problem propogating this animal, at least for one or two generations. It is called science... that is what i'm interested in, not $$. Should they ever be sold? I don't know... but certainly not until we know the ins and outs involved with the genetics.

Do you think that the people that spent big dollars to buy it are not wanting to breed it for profit? Of course they are. I know how much was spent to purchase the animal and it was only done so out of the desire for monetary gain regardless of the effects the abnormalities would have on its or its offsprings lives.

I have no doubt its offspring will be sold. That is the owners business. He's not breaking a law, only the people that agree with that move will buy them.

I'm state what i would do with the animal. just an opinion. I'm not going to get worked up either way, as there are plenty of less ethically questionable animals that i need to get first.

Justin
www.jkobylkareptiles.com

Just going to sum up all my replies to the above posts in one to save me the time, so here goes.

Firstly, it has been stated that the "Derma" ball is in fact a deformity.

Now in my opinion a "deformity" is something that is detrimental to the success of an animal (success in evolutionary terms means reaching breeding age and producing offspring). In order to determine this we must also take into account the habitat the animal is striving to survive within.

Now lets apply this to the case of the "Derma" ball. This animal is kept in captivity, so reaching breeding size should be dependent on the health of the animal, ability to eat well, etc. Now if this animal was in the wild, it would be arguable that the lack of scales or heat pit scales (note, we do not know if this animal cannot receive heat sensory till there is a test done to prove it either way) would be detrimental to the animal most likely leading to death. The same case though could be made of an albino animal, an ivory, super mojave, pied, etc. (lack of black pigment makes thermoregulation tougher for the animal, lack of camoflage, etc.)

The problem with all of the "detrimental" and "deformity" talk is that this animal resides in captivity. Its' success is dependent on reaching a large enough size to breed and produce progeny. Sure the animal may require better humidity control due to its' lack of scales, but this requires slightly different animal husbandry, and would not inherently be detrimental to the animal except possibly in the wild (who is to say a scaleless animal wouldn't adopt a different niche due to its' peculiarity?)

So in summary, I think everyone is arguing over the wrong things. The true point to argue here is whether or not this animal's quality of life is impaired by this mutation.

Also just wanted to point out that this isn't some freak of nature folks, this is just another shining example of the genetic variation within the ball python population, it is evolution, and if this mutation within captivity is selectively bred for, then it is a successful mutation within the habitat within which it resides, that is all.

Dan

I think you nailed the hammer on the head of the nail...don't ask what I just said...I'm an idiot

I think quality of life is the key. Therefore, if we don't let these bp's breed b/c we assume they have a poor quality of life, then we should also sterilize all bp's and other animals that have crappy owners. As a matter of fact, we should also sterilze the owners so they won't be able to pass their pathetic genes on to create more "pathetic owner morphs".

Dan, I agree with you all the way.

Jeremy
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Isn't it cooler that serpent's don't walk anymore?
(Genesis 3:14)