Reptile & Amphibian Forums

apperently my 04 AZ mtn king dosent know how to hibernate she didnt last year and wont this year hmmmm. im getting some snake racks from rosysracks soon. im going to put them under the house were its cool would that work? All my other snakes are out till feburay or march so... i dont know. (sorry for spelling on break and im tired...LOL)

Personally I would not hibernate a snake at that age.
How big is she? and how much does she weigh?

Gary

What do you consider hibernation? Snakes stay active during brumation (hibernation). They travel around their enclosures, drink water, etc.. Don't expect your snake to hibernate like a bear and go into a deep sleep for several months. As long as the temps are low enough ( I have a problem here in southern AZ getting temps as low as I would like), your snake will do fine and lose very little weight.

Greg

Not uncommon.

I'll bet that as an adult it gets inactive prior to lowland Kings. Mountain Kings are known for shorter activity season, and they are not quite as sturdy for pets.

They are the most attractive, however. Enjoy yours.

Snakes don't hibernate. If they can't find places to go to keep their body temps high enough to digest, then they don't eat (in the wild.) If they can still move around (aren't frozen) then they might move around to if they need to or want to for some reason.

In captivity and with mtn kings, we often see the snakes refusing to feed in the late Summer and Fall. In the wild, it has been witnessed that they do indeed feed and feed well if they can find a place where temps allow, like certain basking sites, etc.

True, snakes do not hibernate. But many of them brumate. Hibernation is a significant, almost total, shutdown of an animal's metabolism. Brumation is a much lighter lowering of metabolism. I believe that animals in hibernation live off of stored fat, where many reptiles in brumation live off of glycogen that is stored in the liver.
I agree with the fact that if a wild snake can find prey and suitable temps, it will often take meals late into the season, and in some temperate areas they may feed year round. In captivity many kings will feed year round, but not my pyros. It is not a temperature issue, because there have been no significant changes in my temps from August to now. Most pyro owners are pretty familiar with the routine.

Greg

hibernate = "1. To pass the winter in a dormant or torpid state. 2. To be in an inactive or dormant state or period." The American Heritage College Dictionary (2000).

Whether we call it dormant, torpid, inactive, hibernation, or the newest term brumation, it's still pretty much the same thing to me. I've been calling it hibernation for 50+ yrs and so have many others. To say no snakes hibernate is going to alienate a lot of herpers if you ask me.

I've seen snakes passing the winter at temps at nearly 32*F, for months at a time w/o moving. Noone will convince me that they are active at any pursuit. Their metabolism is almost zero. They can go for five months, or more, w/o losing any weight. I also know there are snakes that can remain active all winter in some tropical and subtropical zones. That doesn't mean all snakes can.

Pyros are montane snakes. Sure we might be able to keep the babies active all winter, and might not, but once they are adults their instincts kick in and I believe most would need an inactive period. It's possible that some will find ways or reasons to stay active in otherwise cool weather, but I believe most adult pyros will need a rest period. I'd like to hear from folks who keep pyros active all year 'round and see what kind of results they get. Do pyro breeders know if they can even have active sperm w/o any cooling? I haven't bred them.

Anyway, I pretty much agree with Greg

TC

Thanks for the down to earth info,
it sure beats the longwinded B.S.

Thanks. Nice group of pyros there.

Ya know. This is a great species and all we have to do is get at the facts of what's going on with it. I think we're all pretty much on the same page. Yet, we often argue about the words we use to describe things. Last thing I want to do is alienate any fellow herpers. I'm pretty much willing to use any words that are acceptable to the group.

Off to work.

Peace all...TC

Why use terms that are not really correct? I'm not condemning. I used that term "hibernation" too for years. Then I found out why it really isn't the best way to describe what goes on.

I've also seen where mtn kings in the wild are still feeding (temperatures permitting) when in captivity they largely stop for most of us.

I've also seen pyros reproduce with little or no cooldown, and produce viable eggs.

I don't think you or I have all the answers. I know I don't. I just want the answers.

I actually meant to put that above post under JETZEN's.

But to answer your question in your other post, yes I have seen pyro breed and produce with a virtually no cooldown, or a very mild cooldown.

A friend had adult pyros CB. He kept them in a barn-like structure where he housed some boa constrictors. He used a space heater to keep the air temp from falling below 72 deg or so, although the floor got cooler.

The room was quite humid nearly year round. Not at all what I would previously have thought of as a good environment for pyro. Yet, his pyro produced healthy eggs and offspring w/o being subjected to below 65 deg temps in Winter and usually warmer. Just doesn't seem right, does it? Yet it happened, 2 or 3 years in a row before he sold the pyro adults.

Lets switch to rosy boas for this example. Textbooks and breeders will likely say that a nice 55 deg cooldown is a necessary part of breeding. Yet, I produced nice big babies with hardly any cooldown at all, just allowing the natural light cycle via a window into the snake room.

I'm not saying I have found the answer. Rather, I'm confused. I'm confused why it works one way for some and another way for others. "Just because" is not a good enough reason. There is something we are missing. Probably we lack a real knowledge of what conditions are really like where snakes live and breed.

I think your answer is in the lighting. This is going to be the first year I have ever actually cooled my snakes for breeding. In years past i just light "cycled" them. The lowest it got in my house (Florida) was in the low 60's but more often in the 70's. I tried to let it get cooler but my girlfriend didn't think leaving the windows open was a good idea

later Jason

Does this mean you cycled them in the dark?

Terry

Mark....
Don't you think a light cycle in the wild would be nearly complete darkness during winter months???
If it is too cold for a snake to be "out and about" wouldn't it go underground where it is completely dark?
FR stated once that a snake can actually find warmer temps by going deeper underground or in certain spots "out of the weather." I also think in these underground "brumation" spots they actually feed since their metabolism does not shut down at those higher temps they seek.

My brumation chamber is completely dark and temps stay around 55F and last year I still had 6 females lay slugs, but again it could have been some husbandry problems while the female was gravid rather than brumation temps or light cycling. I think every time ours snakes breed they have the potential to produce offspring if "conditions" are right....If they do not like the conditions then they do not become gravid (with fertile eggs).

Just my opinion....
John Lassiter

I always brumate my snakes in complete darkness and it works well for me.

If you had females that dropped slugs that sounds like they didn't get fertilized for some reason to me. Maybe the males weren't with them long enough or some other reason...just a guess

TC

You are correct. The cages had retreats for absolute darkness, but the window still let light in. The snakes did hide much of the time but also came out at times, especially on warmer days.
-----
Mark G
Montane snakes are the coolest...

Lets switch to rosy boas for this example. Textbooks and breeders will likely say that a nice 55 deg cooldown is a necessary part of breeding. Yet, I produced nice big babies with hardly any cooldown at all, just allowing the natural light cycle via a window into the snake room.

I'm not saying I have found the answer. Rather, I'm confused. I'm confused why it works one way for some and another way for others. "Just because" is not a good enough reason. There is something we are missing. Probably we lack a real knowledge of what conditions are really like where snakes live and breed.

Analyzing conditions where the snakes live is a good point. There are a lot of variables for each person in how they keep their snakes, and is why it is talked about so much. This is what I’d like to discuss and learn about.

Using rosy boas as an example isn’t too fair, however. They are very different snakes from kingsnakes. I believe it is likely rosies are active year ‘round in their habitat. They live in low desert regions where they likely utilize hot spots to keep their body temps up and to find and digest food. I would expect rosies to be able to stay active all winter and still produce young the following spring or summer.

Kingsnakes, however, are a different animal. Also, I believe a lot of folks don’t live in regions where kings have favorable conditions for staying active all winter, and many keepers don’t have access to computers or the info on these forums. A lot of keepers will read books for the average keeper, so bare with me with my literature references.

I’d like to quote Markel from his 1990 book, Kingsnakes and Milk Snakes. “Snakes need a dormant period for the brain to trigger hormonal production that then causes sex cells to be produced. Once these cells are produced, the female will produce sex hormones that act something like a perfume to attract males. Once a male comes into contact with a producing female, breeding almost always takes place. This whole process is stimulated by the hibernation or dormant period. Without a hibernation period, most snakes will not produce sex cells, but they may still breed. Usually these breedings go to waste and no eggs are produced.”

I don’t believe this is true in all cases even with kingsnakes, but I do believe Markel had lots of experience with kings and thought this was the best way to keep and breed kingsnakes of various species. Also, this book is 15 yrs. old and a lot of data has been accrued since then. I’m sure there are areas where kings stay active all year. There are likely kings that can produce w/o cooling.

Another variable in how we keep snakes has to do with lighting. Keepers in the northern part of the U.S. and Can. have very short days over the winter. We can have as little as 8.5 or 9 hrs. of daylight in winter mos. whereas, in southern states it is closer to being even day and night. This might be a factor in how long snakes remain active in captivity.

A friend had adult pyros CB. He kept them in a barn-like structure where he housed some boa constrictors. He used a space heater to keep the air temp from falling below 72 deg or so, although the floor got cooler.

The room was quite humid nearly year round. Not at all what I would previously have thought of as a good environment for pyro. Yet, his pyro produced healthy eggs and offspring w/o being subjected to below 65 deg temps in Winter and usually warmer. Just doesn't seem right, does it? Yet it happened, 2 or 3 years in a row before he sold the pyro adults.

Actually it sounds pretty good to me. A lot of keepers might think it wasn’t cool enough or too humid, but I think pyros might be able to cycle at 65-70*F for a couple months. Also, pyros likely have lots of humidity in their underground retreats. One of the things we don’t see is what their habitat is like far underground. Even though they live at quite high altitudes, pyros may be able to find fairly warm temps underground, and the montane habitats certainly have a lot more precipitation and humidity than down in the deserts overall.

I don’t claim to have more experience than others with these snakes in the wild, and I do tend to theorize with the knowledge I do have, but I’m interested in generating ideas about how snakes live and how they should be kept. I’m willing to reflect and change my perspective when others put up ideas and facts that can help form our ideas.

Thanks for the conversation and hanging in there
TC

Photo: December in 2003 in Gardner Canyon, Santa Rita Mtns, AZ. Notice the ice on the stream in this early morning shot. I plan to visit the area again this coming December.

Nice pic, good habitat.

I respect your responses, Terry. Good discussion.

Mark
-----
Mark G
Montane snakes are the coolest...

Mark, sorry I didn't get on yesterday, but I've been having some problems with my new job and fighting a cold and an injury.

Very nice response. I just want to find out too, and you're right, snakes do what nature allows them to do. I certainly don't think I have all the answers. As long as I've been loving herpetology I still feel I'm learning tons every year.

>>I've also seen pyros reproduce with little or no cooldown, and produce viable eggs.

Thanks for the info. I didn't know that. I didn't think it would be possible, but I believe you.

>>I've also seen where mtn kings in the wild are still feeding (temperatures permitting) when in captivity they largely stop for most of us.
>>

I believe they could continue feeding if they could find spots where they could maintain body temps high enough to digest food. I assume some of the folks in AZ have found places where this is possible. I plan to investigate that this winter. I also know their range, both horizontally and vertically, brings them into areas that get cold temps in winter. I've seen freezing temps all day and snow on the ground in the Santa Ritas several times trying to hike there in winter.

Here's one variable with captive breeding we don't discuss much...where you live. At my house we've had temps in the 20's (at night) for several days now. I believe our captives are sensitive to outdoor temps even though they are indoors. They are also sensitive to changes in barometric pressure and humidity. I try to keep track of all these readings. I know almost for a fact when I move to AZ that my captive snakes will behave differently even though I will keep them essentially the same. Some of my snakes shut down in September and I have to brumate them. Other snakes of mine are more adapted to a very short winter season and can be kept going much longer, all winter in some instances, like with corns. I think most pyro keepers brumate their snakes, I know my partner does. But there are many pyro breeders in the South too, and I'm sure some of them keep their snakes going much longer.

>>Why use terms that are not really correct? I'm not condemning. I used that term "hibernation" too for years. Then I found out why it really isn't the best way to describe what goes on.
>>

I agree. I just was trying to make a point about never using or understanding when someone says hibernation. I use the term brumation also, when it applies to captive snakes that are have a short cool down, or wild snakes that aren't cooling at cold temps. But I also understand many folks (remember I'm in education) use "hibernation" and don't understand "brumation". I try to do what's most acceptable on the forum.

Thanks for the good discussion

Terry

then to discuss some mtn kingsnake natural history. All BS that natural history stuff. Long-winded too. Feeding pics are right to the point.

I just think snakes do whatever the temps allow them to do. In a reptile, their metabolism is generally a slave to the temps they can find in their habitat. Temps get low, metabolism goes down.

Fact remains, what we see in captivity many times does not go in sync with what they are doing in their natural habitat.

Posted by: kingaz at Thu Oct 27 17:45:44 2005 [ Report Abuse ] [ Email Message ]

True, snakes do not hibernate. But many of them brumate. Hibernation is a significant, almost total, shutdown of an animal's metabolism. Brumation is a much lighter lowering of metabolism. I believe that animals in hibernation live off of stored fat, where many reptiles in brumation live off of glycogen that is stored in the liver.
I agree with the fact that if a wild snake can find prey and suitable temps, it will often take meals late into the season, and in some temperate areas they may feed year round. In captivity many kings will feed year round, but not my pyros. It is not a temperature issue, because there have been no significant changes in my temps from August to now. Most pyro owners are pretty familiar with the routine.

Greg

My pyro hasnt eaten in 2 weeks and it seems to seek out the cool area of the tank . He is a baby and was an eating machine (baby born this summer).
Than about 2 weeks ago though temps still same in tank warm area and stay in cool area which has no UTH and air temp 72 .
He looks fine body wise but he was eating 2 pinkies a week for all summer early fall than now he has stopped.
Air temp in warm area is mid 80s as it was in summer (I use 40 watt red spotlight).
Tank is 20 gallon long. Should I just shut off the heat for a few weeks?
The room he is in has air temp of 70 but I can put him in my basement walk in closet which has temp of 55 to 60 max.
Should I just keep set up as is and hope he starts to eat soon?
It has rained more or less for 2 weeks and the room he is kept in receives indirect light from outside but last 2 weeks rather dark.
Any info advice would be great.
thanks