Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Reposted it with a new title;

There needs to be a revolution of sorts with who sets the exceptable sizes of cages. How do we truely know how big the cage should be?? A book that was written in the 70's by some guy you used to keep snakes in his moms basement ( I'm being sarcastic with the basement comment) ?? There hasn't been an update to our hobby in a very long time. Yes, there's new gadgets, and easier ways to clean and maintain cages, but what about evolving the basics behind keeping reptiles?? Any one with me or am I the only one that feels this way about it?? I mean, has any one thought of the fact that maybe the reason why some ball pythons are problem feeders?? I've kept mine in a larger tank than needed and he's eaten like a horse. I know I'm not the only one that's mentioned this in this forum, and I think it's an idea that needs to stay alive in the minds of all of us! Any thoughts??

I must say that I agree. Everyone likes to shoot for the "minimum" cage requirements for their animals. They typically do this so that they can fit MORE animals into what space they have available. Granted, there are some species that just typically do better in a more confined space than in a bigger more open space. Ball Pythons as I am sure you know, prefer a much more cramped space. It all really depends on the species in my opinion. However, like large constrictors, I always recommend as large as possible. It might be harder to heat and provide proper temp/humidity gradients, but once that is achieved, you will have a very happy and healthy animal.

Good subject!

Chris
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Chris Law
U.A.P.P.E.A.L. (Uniting a Proactive Primate and Exotic Animal League)
Herpetoculture Element Representative

View my website: www.herpfanatic.com

Check out my website! www.herpfanatic.com

Well, I guess my ball python didn't read that paticular books, he's been thriving ever since I got him. My whole point to this, was even in the wild, you don't see a Ball Python with only 20 to 40 gallons of space as their territory, or any snake for that matter!!

As a matter of fact, perhaps they must not have read where they were supposed to be in captivity at all! Your right, corn snakes should be offered a room sized enclosure! After all, they can travel pretty decent distances! Actually, hold on....no a room sized enclosure wouldnt even be sufficient for that matter. You should actually donate your backyard to a corn snake...I think that would be much better. But then....in the wild...I have never seen a fence or anything like that confining a snake to a specific "territory". Sooooo that means that we should actually not keep them at all...because we dont' offer them EXACTLY what they get in the wild.

Hey now that you think of it....perhaps PetA and the HSUS make sense after all, huh?

Seriously...I dont believe in bare minimum caging. However, offering a snake or any other reptile a cage that is a complete overkill is simply not feasible. In my opinion, doubling the size of a "minimum" enclosure would be perfectly sufficient...but hey... like you said I am pretty sure that the snakes forgot to read those books that state that is OK as well....so hhmmm...quite an interesting web we weave!
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Chris Law
U.A.P.P.E.A.L. (Uniting a Proactive Primate and Exotic Animal League)
Herpetoculture Element Representative

View my website: www.herpfanatic.com

Actually there has been a movement in the hobby toward naturalistic environments with live plants running water etc., mostly in europe, but it'st picking up here in the states slowly. Americans have this mass production mentality that predisposes us to prefer the simplest solution, but that doesn't mean it's the best. You will get a lot more out of your pets if you create an environment that allows them to behave more naturally, they will eat better, breed better, but probably like being handled less. Breeders will probably always have there shoe box racks, but I think for the average keeper, having a snake on newspaper in sweaterbox under your bed is just passe.

Wanna hear what you've got to say, I've always valued your opinion on other topics, and would like to hear yours on this one.

First, let me say that I won't win any awards for providing my snakes with large and well-planted natural vivaria at the moment. I have plans in the works but I'm not there yet.

I am a bit concerned with what I see in the hobby regarding cage size. I build cages for myself and friends and fully understand how hard it can be to provide large spaces for Burmese Pythons and other large constrictors. The ideal cage size for them would likely not fit into the average home.

I'm more concerned with the number of species I see being kept in the typical 28 qt rubbermaid. Remember, any sweater box has a thick rim around the top and sloping sides so the boxes can be shipped nested inside of each other. That means the typical sweater box has a floor area of 20" x 14".

That means the perimeter of a sweater box is 68". The diagonal (the longest dimension) is just a bit over 24".

Yet larger colubrids such as Black Milksnakes, Gopher/Bulls/Pines and Florida/Eastern Kingsnakes are routinely kept in these.

I don't know what to say. I don't like any "rule of thumb" based on the length of the cage. If the length of the cage is important than the longest dimension of the cage should be even more important. And that's the diagonal, not the length. In some cases, a square cage can provide a lot more space than a cage that is considerably longer but narrow. It may not seem that way when we picture it, but the numbers don't lie.

At the very least we should use perimeter as a starting point. I have heard it mentioned by natural vivarium enthusiasts that the perimeter should be twice the length of the snake in the cage. This is a MINIMUM.

For some reference:

4' cornsnake would need a cage with a floor area of 30" x 18".

7' Boa constrictor would need 4' x 3' or 5' x 2'.

14' Burmese Python would need 8' x 6' or 11' x 3'.

I don't know, that sounds like a start to me. Note that I have not even mentioned height.

A few more comments:

I keep Gonyosoma oxycephela, a species that has proven difficult to keepers here in the US. Yet it is routinely bred over in Germany and other northern European countries. G. oxycephala is a medium to large sized Ratsnake/Racer type. Think of a slender Black Ratsnake for comparison.

German humane laws require a snake this size be kept in a cage that is 5' x 5' x 5'. Yes, a FIVE FOOT CUBE. If more than one snake is kept in the cage, a 10% increase is required for every additional snake. I'm not clear if that is a 10% increase in volume or in each cage dimension. Regardless, we are talking walk-in sized cages for something like a Black Ratsnake.

In the states, many will keep Black Ratsnakes in a 28 qt. rubbermaid. For a neat visual, an american keeper might keep 100 ratsnakes in the same space. Do that math, you could stack over 100 sweater boxes in the space of a five foot cube.

Now, I will say that I understand Germans rarely use cages this large, but they do tend to use large cages nonetheless. I'm lucky to have several Europeans fluent in English that I exchange emails with so I do have some idea of how they actually practice their craft vs. what their laws require.

For myself, I keep colubrids in 250 gal reptariums. with hiding places waterfall and live plants, you can keep two to three snakes comfortably.

Little tiny 12ft dog "runs" that have huge germen shepards in them day and night...Not that this is going anywhere but just there is no "minimum,maximum" that would fit any animal....I keep most of my snakes in cages with 8sq feet of floorspace..But I notice that my Bluetongue still paces sometimes and wants out(and yes his temps are perfect)...So how much space should he have? My ball python had the same space but I moved him because he eats much better when he is in a smaller cage.
It also depends on how much outside the cage time they have..If you never pick up your snake or lizard and give them exercise they need a bigger enclosure..Lets face it, as long as we have pets,unless they are free roaming they will be confined to less than ideal enviroments.
I never have liked the idea of snakes confined in small tubs that some breeders use for extended periods with adult snakes..I have seen this at one guys shop and felt bad for those animals treated as money makers and not living creatures with needs.
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I'd rather continue to keep my snakes in their 31" x 17" x 12" tubs than keep a German Shepard in a 12' dog run.

This also demonstrates that we can't come up with objective rules to cover all taxonomic groups. And I don't think we should even lump snakes together.

What works for a 4' Coachwhip may not work for a 4' Ball Python.

Am I saying we need to devote an entire spare bedroom to our scaley friends, but like many, I'm fed up with seeing two or more snakes in an enclosure that is hardly big enough for one snake let alone two. Much like the fresh and salt water fish community has evolved over the years, and they're no longer keeping 20 fish in a 10 gallon tank, I was just stating something that most of us have already done for our snake, it's more orriented to those new up and coming Herp Hobbyist who are listening to the "old" rules and not being informed about what the snake actually needs and going off of the rules that have been around for decades.

Tomorrow, I will be a snake owner for exactly two weeks. In the months leading up to my purchase of two snakes, I did as much reading and as much talking to people as I could to learn what the requirements would be. More than anything else, I've learned that there's no single "right" answer to any question. I think you ask a good question and have a good point, but I'm not sure what you mean when you talk about following a requirement written in the 70's. I'm curious which book or books you're referencing with that statement because I can't find a single recommendation.

As I looked at the recommended cages for an adult ball python, the recommendations ranged from about 36 to 48 inches in length, from about 13 to 30 inches in depth, and from about 14 to about 36 inches in height. Typically, the online guides gave the lower numbers. I have only one book so far (copyright 2003) and this book recommended 48x30x36 for two adult ball pythons in the same cage. The book doesn't say what size is required for a single ball python. The book says that the two adults should be kept separate when they aren't breeding. Does that mean that this size cage is needed for each or does it mean that the cage can be divided in two with half for each? When I went to the pet store to look at ball pythons, they initially recommended a 40-gallon long, then a 55-gallon long, and finally a 75-gallon long. I don't mean to sound cynical, but to some extent it seemed as if the cage recommendation varies more with the perceived stretch in the owner's wallet than it does with the anticipated growth of the snake.

What's the right answer? If you have a right answer, how did you determine that answer to be right? What would be the measurements that you would use to determine what "right" is? Again, I think the question is good. I would have felt much better if I could have found a guide that described a study, survey, or some other rational approach to showing what requirements the animal would have and how I can meet those requirements.

Bill

I just wanted to see what the opinion of the rest of the community was. I'm not saying that I'm all of the sudden the resident expert on the topic of cages nor was I trying to give that impression. I do agree there are some shady people selling snakes to people and marking their cages up to make a quick buck. The 70's comment was sarcastic in nature and was not ment to be taken serious.

You didn't come across as trying to pretend that you were the resident expert at all. Your question was very good, and I agree with your point. I wish we had more real data on the question of what cages are appropriate for our animals.

Thanks,

Bill

What on earth is a ball python going to do with 36 inches of height?

I have no idea what a ball python would do with 36 inches in height. The book that they sold at the store where I bought my ball python suggested that dimension but didn't say how it was derived. I had the same question that you did, but I haven't seen an answer. The point of the original poster is that we'd all benefit from further exploration of these questions and from real answers based on real data.

Bill

Natural vivaria enthusiasts use tall cages for species like BP's so there is room for plants to grow. They also include deep substrate with artificial burrows, etc., which take up vertical space.

They do look pretty cool. During my google searches for some of the more rare stuff I'm interested in I have found natural vivaria setups for ball pythons. They looked great. Wish I had the links saved. Unfortunately they are all foreign language sites and not something you'd easily find again during a search. I only found them by accident.

Ball Pythons will climb on occasion when given the opportunity.

There are none, becuase ultimately the best environment is a limitless one. When ever you cage an animal you are limiting his natural range. The question is, are you going to try and provide an environment that simulates his natural one are you just going to keep him contained. If it's the latter then you need to make sure that he can strech out fully and still have room for water and a hiding place of somekind. If its the previous, then you need room for live plants/trees, waterfalls etc. Providing a natural environment requires knowledge and skill and artistic sense, it's something that as a keeper, you can take pride in. A shoe box lined with newspaper under the bed. will keep your snake alive, but what's the point?

Whats the book you have? I have "The guide to owning A Ball Python" By John Coborn, It says the dimensions of a cage (sub adult and adult) Should be 48x30x36 but thats for a pair. I was thinking we have the same book because it doesn't specify what should be used for one snake. I'm soon going to purchase a pair and I plan to use a sweater box for each untill they are big enough for a 20GL long enclosure or 30gl.