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Hey everyone,

The state of PA is seeking public feedback on proposed herp regulations that will do a lot to stop rattlesnake roundups by imposing very strict collection limits, and offer much greater protection to most state herps. Below is an article I wrote on the subject for a couple herp news venues, and I wanted to share it with kingsnake.com. There's a link at the bottom where you can post comments about this subject directly to PA Fish and Boat Commission (agency controlling these regs) from October 15th-December 15th.

Proposed PA Herp Regulations deter Rattlesnake Roundups, offer further protection to several species; PFBC currently seeking public feedback

By Jesse Rothacker

No two states handle wildlife management the same way – especially when it comes to herps. In Pennsylvania, centuries went by before any agency took responsibility for reptiles and amphibians. Even after the PA Fish and Boat Commission reluctantly took charge of state herps in 1980, the state’s seventy-six reptile and amphibian species and subspecies remained an unwanted burden and were continually tossed back and forth between PFBC and the PA Game Commission. While many fish and wildlife species create millions in state revenue through hunting and fishing licenses, reptiles and amphibians are not so lucrative to manage. Consequently, herps have remained largely unregulated in PA, until recently.

With this history in mind, it should come as no surprise that PA is one of the seven states where Rattlesnake Roundups are still legal. Among the states where roundups are legal (TX, OK, NM, KS, AL, GA, and PA), Pennsylvania has always been one of the most notorious. PA is home to no less than nine or ten roundups per year, despite the fact that PA’s rattlesnakes are a candidate-threatened species (Crotalus horridus) and an endangered species (Sitrurus c. catenatus).

Unlike the relatively resilient Western Diamondback collected for most Southwestern roundups, the candidate-threatened Timber Rattlesnake (Crotalus horridus) collected in PA is quite vulnerable. It is listed as Endangered, Threatened, or otherwise protected in several states, including NJ, NY, VT, NH, CT, MA, IN, OH, IL, WS, MN, and of course PA. Adults only reach sexual maturity after 8-10 years, and only reproduce once every 3-5 years. Research shows Timbers may abandon den sites which have been molested. Survival rates are well under 25% for snakes released outside of their small 1-2 mile home range. During roundups, dens are commonly disturbed or destroyed and snakes that aren’t killed or kept are often released outside their home range. After decades of roundups, these actions have taken their toll. A several-year study by state biologists has shown 71% of Pennsylvania’s South Mountain Timber Rattlesnake population has already gone the way of the buffalo.

The PA Fish and Boat Commission has responded by recently proposing new herp regulations. The new regs, if passed, would take existing protection for state herps and turn it up a notch. While several species will receive an extra dose of protection under the new rules, Timber Rattlesnakes will perhaps be receiving a couple doses.

Under current regulations, a $5 permit allows roundup participants to take up to two Timber Rattlesnakes per year for a hunt, regardless of the snake’s sex or age. In fact, “heaviest rattlesnake” prizes are awarded at roundups, encouraging participants to seek out and capture gravid females from the wild. Unfortunately, gravid females spend a lot of time basking out in the open to incubate developing young, making them easy targets. Under the proposed regulations, easy targets will be a thing of the past.

Females will be completely off-limits, and males must be a minimum of 42 inches to be taken (average adult length of a male Timber is 41 inches). The entire South Mountain Timber Rattlesnake population will be completely off-limits for roundups. Hunt permits will cost $50 instead of five, and participants will only be allowed one snake instead of two. Although roundups will still be legal under the new regulations, Timber populations may at least stand a fighting chance.

Other changes proposed in the new regulations aim to sustain many other declining herp populations. Northern Copperheads will be given a closed season and require a collection-permit for the first time. A new permit system for Snapping Turtles will monitor their collection much more closely. Changes to Snapping Turtle regulation comes after a single Philadelphia meat vendor reportedly sold 12,000 pounds of Snapper meat per year. Additionally, every "unprotected" herp in the state would be given extra protection with possession limits being dropped from two to one for unprotected species. Several declining species, like the Eastern Box Turtle, will no longer be legal to collect at all. This comes after wildlife groups like the Sierra Club have urged PFBC to ban collection of the Eastern Box Turtle and other turtles from the wild (see House Bill 1908).

These proposed regs are quickly becoming a popular discussion topic, and PFBC is interested in your thoughts on the subject. The proposed regulations are currently up for public comment for sixty days, from October 15th through December 15th. Rattlesnake Roundup organizers are fiercely opposed to the regs, while most herp wildlife advocates are strongly supporting them. Below are links to the PFBC website where you can learn more about the proposed regs. Most importantly, you can use the last link to send your feedback/questions/concerns to PFBC.

Page containing all of PFBC's Proposed Regulations (Herp Regs are RuleMakings 175):

sites.state.pa.us/PA_Exec/Fish_Boat/reg398.htm

To view Proposed Herp Laws Directly:

sites.state.pa.us/PA_Exec/Fish_Boat/rulemakings/175nprp.htm

To voice your feedback to PFBC through an online public feedback web form:

www.state.pa.us/papower/cwp/view.asp?a=1093&Q=438140&PM=1
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Jesse Rothacker
Forgotten Friend Reptile Sanctuary
Find out how YOU can get involved in reptile rescue...
www.forgottenfriend.org

Additionally, every "unprotected" herp in the state would be given extra protection with possession limits being dropped from two to one for unprotected species.

What is the rationale for this? Discouraging captive breeding? What if animals are purchased vs. caught? If you keep the receipts, would you be OK?

Several declining species, like the Eastern Box Turtle, will no longer be legal to collect at all.

Legal to possess if purchased CB or out-of-state legal WC?
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Chris McMartin
www.mcmartinville.com
I'm Not a Herpetologist, but I Play One on the Internet

What is the rationale for [dropping possession limits from two to one]? Discouraging captive breeding? What if animals are purchased vs. caught? If you keep the receipts, would you be OK?

As hobbyists, we love our herps and always want the right to keep them. However, we have to realize that hobbyists are a very small minority of the people who interact with state herps. 99.9% of people who take a herp from the wild put it in a mayonaise jar with a stick and a leaf and it dies a week later. Most people who remove herps from the wild do not introduce them to a successful breeding program. Your concern is a valid one and I encourage you to suggest breeding considerations to PFBC, but at the same time remember these regs are designed to protect herps from the entire population that interacts with herps, not just hobbyists who might do a little bit of good for them.

One reason PFBC is getting tighter on native herps which are allegedly WC from out-of-state, is because it's the first excuse every illegal vendor uses. Off the top of my head I can think of a bunch of vendors who claim their native stuff was caught in MD or OH, but you know it wasn't.

There are bound to be one or two issues with the proposed herp regs that will cause us each a little heartburn. Still, we must weigh those couple working points verses the ammount of protection that will be given to state herps. I think the fact that 95% of Timber Rattlesnakes will be illegal to hunt for Rattlesnake Roundups outweighs a lot of minors concerns. And if I have to give up keeping a couple native herps as a hobbyist to ensure that my kids and grandkids can enjoy them in the wild some day, I think that's a small price to pay.

However anyone feels about the regs, I hope you'll take the time to let PFBC know about it through this quick webform. If we have time to debate the issues on a message board, we certainly have time to send these questions/concerns/thoughts to PFBC through one easy link.

Click the link below to submit your thoughts about proposed regs to PFBC (they are accepting public feedback until December 15th, so don't wait too long!)

www.state.pa.us/papower/cwp/view.asp?a=1093&Q=438140&PM=1

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Jesse Rothacker
Forgotten Friend Reptile Sanctuary
Find out how YOU can get involved in reptile rescue...
www.forgottenfriend.org

>>What is the rationale for [dropping possession limits from two to one]? Discouraging captive breeding?

>>As hobbyists, we love our herps and always want the right to keep them. However, we have to realize that hobbyists are a very small minority of the people who interact with state herps. 99.9% of people who take a herp from the wild put it in a mayonaise jar with a stick and a leaf and it dies a week later.

This is why the proposed possession limit is ineffective--those people would still be allowed to take that herp from the wild and put it in a mayonnaise jar (not that a law can stop someone from doing that--kids have done this for decades!); but people who are actually interested in breeding natives won't be able to do so.

I don't agree with your 99.9% statistic but assume it was used for effect. Also, thanks to the wealth of information (some good, some bad) available these days I doubt the mortality rates are as high today as they were, say, 20 years ago. And the information comes largely from dedicated herpetoculturists who got their start with WC.
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Chris McMartin
www.mcmartinville.com
I'm Not a Herpetologist, but I Play One on the Internet

"This is why the proposed possession limit is ineffective--those people would still be allowed to take that herp from the wild and put it in a mayonnaise jar (not that a law can stop someone from doing that--kids have done this for decades!)"

Not exactly. Collection of many declining species is banned so you can't say it would still be allowed. And even dropping limits from two to one on really common species slows things down. A lot of people make the argument "people won't obey the law anyway" but that really doesn't hold water. I know a 55 MPH sign doesn't always keep people from driving 70, but it may slow them down a little, especially after people start getting pulled over. And while I might drive 70 in a 55 zone, I'd drive 80 in a 65 zone. Likewise, cutting the herp limits may not be perfect but should have some effect on collection.

"Also, thanks to the wealth of information (some good, some bad) available these days I doubt the mortality rates are as high today as they were, say, 20 years ago. And the information comes largely from dedicated herpetoculturists who got their start with WC."

I understand how WC creatures are needed for captive breeding to take pressure off of more WC creatures and that is a valid argument to some extent. I'm sure it's no longer profitable to sell WC corn snakes thanks to captive breeding. But we also have to remember a lot of stuff that was collected for captivity in the 70s and 80s had far greater population numbers back then. A generation or two of habitat loss and fragmentation puts us in a different ball game today than the herpers who started breeding some stuff 20 years ago. I agree there is a need for captive breeding, but I still think state herp regs should be written for the general public, not for hobbyists. Maybe get some exceptions for hobbyists, I know our rescue will need to get some more certification now to place Box Turtles that we will inevitablly get in. But legalizing the sale of CB state herps is too big of a loop hole for people who want to sell WC state herps illegally, especially when some populations are on the edge right now.

Good discussion though. Hopefully as reptile management improves there will be more room for including more of these specifics that always cause debate.
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Jesse Rothacker
Forgotten Friend Reptile Sanctuary
Find out how YOU can get involved in reptile rescue...
www.forgottenfriend.org

Yeah, and 99.9% of the people doing that AREN'T going to realize there's a regulation against it. MD has had regs for 11 years, making it illegal to have more than one wild-caught eastern box turtle, but do you know how many people I talked to each year that never realized there even WAS a regulation, and had two or three eastern box turtles? Most people that take the time to learn more about thier animals want to do the right thing, and end up letting the turtle go where they found it if they haven't had it very long. Those that don't try to learn more, well, they never learn there is a reg, so how is that helping collection by John Q Public?

Maryland's DNR has been satisfied with thier regulations and the permits needed to keep native herps. NJ has an extensive permitting system that seems to work. Why can't PA follow one of those?

I think we need regs, but this proposal needs a serious over-haul before it becomes a regulation!!!!

Katrina

"As hobbyists, we love our herps and always want the right to keep them. However, we have to realize that hobbyists are a very small minority of the people who interact with state herps. 99.9% of people who take a herp from the wild put it in a mayonaise jar with a stick and a leaf and it dies a week later. Most people who remove herps from the wild do not introduce them to a successful breeding program."

99.9% of the people [removing box turtles from the wild] AREN'T going to realize there's a regulation against it. MD has had regs for 11 years, making it illegal to have more than one wild-caught eastern box turtle, but do you know how many people I talked to each year that never realized there even WAS a regulation, and had two or three eastern box turtles? Most people that take the time to learn more about thier animals want to do the right thing, and end up letting the turtle go where they found it if they haven't had it very long. Those that don't try to learn more, well, they never learn there is a reg, so how is that helping collection by John Q Public?

You have to admit though an all-out ban will reach far more "average" people than a 1-per-person limit. An all-out ban on an animal that many people used to collect as a pet is the sort of stuff that hits media and gets around, especially with the huge battle it took by wildlife groups before PFBC put the ban in the proposed regs. And even if box turtle collection isn't banned in these regulations, it will be banned by state legislature anyway. Sierra Club and other well respected wildlife groups have been urging PFBC to ban the collection of Eastern Box Turtles for years. Currently there is a bill before state legislature (house bill 1908) that would ban the collection of Eastern Box Turtles, and it is expected to pass. So whether box turlte collection is banned by the PFBC regs, or state law through House Bill 1908, it is going to happen. Very well respected wildlife groups and experts have been lobbying for that change for so long we may as well accept it. So please don't let the box turtle ban keep you from supporting the proposed regs because that ban is going to happen, new regs or not.

Maryland's DNR has been satisfied with thier regulations and the permits needed to keep native herps. NJ has an extensive permitting system that seems to work. Why can't PA follow one of those?

Have you made these suggestions to PFBC during the public feedback period? Here is the link below, it won't take long! PA does have some learning and growing to do with herp regulation, but I still think these regs are a step in the right direction.

Public feedback period for proposed regs Oct. 15 - Dec. 15. Send your suggestions to PFBC through the link below:

www.state.pa.us/papower/cwp/view.asp?a=1093&Q=438140&PM=1
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Jesse Rothacker
Forgotten Friend Reptile Sanctuary
Find out how YOU can get involved in reptile rescue...
www.forgottenfriend.org

Hello, Jesse, you're missing my point. My point wasn't about allowing wild collection - I'm against wild collection. My point is 1) most of the general public isn't aware that there ARE regulutions and 2) why make possession illegal when there's no real need, when it will be condemming animals to death that are CURRENTLY LEGAL AND WITHIN THE CURRENT REGULATION? Take a step back and admit that approving this regulation AS IS is probably not the best thing. It needs grandfathering. It could take into account that captive breeding is relatively easy and reduces poaching.

Yes, my comments will be made. But as I remember, the FBC ALREADY met with many concerned hobbyists, and still the proposed regulations look the same as they did BEFORE the concerned hobbyists jumped in. Why is that? Oh, many of us will be contacting the FBC.

Katrina

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""99.9% of the people [removing box turtles from the wild] AREN'T going to realize there's a regulation against it. MD has had regs for 11 years, making it illegal to have more than one wild-caught eastern box turtle, but do you know how many people I talked to each year that never realized there even WAS a regulation, and had two or three eastern box turtles? Most people that take the time to learn more about thier animals want to do the right thing, and end up letting the turtle go where they found it if they haven't had it very long. Those that don't try to learn more, well, they never learn there is a reg, so how is that helping collection by John Q Public? ""

You have to admit though an all-out ban will reach far more "average" people than a 1-per-person limit. An all-out ban on an animal that many people used to collect as a pet is the sort of stuff that hits media and gets around, especially with the huge battle it took by wildlife groups before PFBC put the ban in the proposed regs. And even if box turtle collection isn't banned in these regulations, it will be banned by state legislature anyway. Sierra Club and other well respected wildlife groups have been urging PFBC to ban the collection of Eastern Box Turtles for years. Currently there is a bill before state legislature (house bill 1908) that would ban the collection of Eastern Box Turtles, and it is expected to pass. So whether box turlte collection is banned by the PFBC regs, or state law through House Bill 1908, it is going to happen. Very well respected wildlife groups and experts have been lobbying for that change for so long we may as well accept it. So please don't let the box turtle ban keep you from supporting the proposed regs because that ban is going to happen, new regs or not.

My point is 1) most of the general public isn't aware that there ARE regulutions and 2) why make [box turtle] possession illegal when there's no real need, when it will be condemming animals to death that are CURRENTLY LEGAL AND WITHIN THE CURRENT REGULATION? Take a step back and admit that approving this regulation AS IS is probably not the best thing. It needs grandfathering. It could take into account that captive breeding is relatively easy and reduces poaching.

Glad you brought up grandfathering. I have had the opportunity to speek to Chris Urban (PFBC's reptile man) as well as others at PFBC (biologists and enforcement folks). The plan for grandfathering Eastern Box Turtles is to give a one-year period after the regs go into effect for folks to apply for a grandfathering permit. We won't be condemning anything to death.

Technically rescues like ours that work mostly with pet trade animals will have to get additional certification to work with wild caught box turtles that have been brought into captivity, and our board is preparing for that. However, if you talk to any of the enforcement folks at PFBC they'll assure you they are not concerned with (nor do they have the time for) the kid down the street who didn't know his pet turtle is illegal. They are concerned with closing the loopholes for people who want to poach and sell native herps.

As far as why wildlife advocates want to ban the collection of box turtles, you should talk to some folks at the Sierra Club and ask specifically about their Box Turtle Campaign. They are a well respected wildlife organization that has been urging the ban of box turtle collection for quite some time. Or talk to the supporters and creators of house bill 1908 which will also ban box turtle collection. Maybe they can give you better specifics than I can.

As for hobbyists breeding native stuff, it may not make the cut for the new regs this time around, but it is on PFBC's radar. When it comes to big reg packages like this one, there is always going to be something that each person isn't crazy about. But we have to look at the bigger picture and ask ourselves if the pros outweigh the cons. In this case we're seeing major limitations on rattlesnake roundups, collection limits on declining species, and grandfathering clauses for the banned stuff. No regs are perfect, but I think that's a pretty good start. Remember, even after these regs pass they will continually be revised in future years. Just because Santa doesn't bring you what you wanted this year doesn't mean you won't get it next Christmas
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Jesse Rothacker
Forgotten Friend Reptile Sanctuary
Find out how YOU can get involved in reptile rescue...
www.forgottenfriend.org

"As far as why wildlife advocates want to ban the collection of box turtles, you should talk to some folks at the Sierra Club and ask specifically about their Box Turtle Campaign. They are a well respected wildlife organization that has been urging the ban of box turtle collection for quite some time. Or talk to the supporters and creators of house bill 1908 which will also ban box turtle collection. Maybe they can give you better specifics than I can."

Jesse,

Did you see the part of my previous post where I said I OPPOSE WILD COLLECTION? In case you didn't catch the memo, I *AM* a wildlife advocate. If you want to see a real boondoggle, check out TX regs - they allow commercial collection of box turtles, which is disgusting.

Katrina

Did you see the part of my previous post where I said I OPPOSE WILD COLLECTION?

I understand you oppose wild collection and you also oppose banning wild collection. I'm simply suggesting you talk to the folks at Sierra Club who have urged PFBC to ban collection of box turtles and the folks who have sponsored house bill 1908 that would ban box turtle collection. I'm sure we've all spent a great deal of time wrestling with the wild collection issue and we all have common interests at stake, so you're bound to have interesting discussion talking to other wildlife folks who are urging the colleciton ban. I thought perhaps talking to others in favor of the regs would give you a better perspective of why we favor them, since I haven't been able to do that for you.
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Jesse Rothacker
Forgotten Friend Reptile Sanctuary
Find out how YOU can get involved in reptile rescue...
www.forgottenfriend.org

POST-GAZETTE (Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania) 06 November 05 Proposed protection for reptiles, amphibians (Ben Moyer)
They're not popular and not at all cute, but the Pennsylvania Fish and Boat Commission says many species of snakes, lizards, frogs and turtles are disappearing from the state and the agency is proposing new regulations to stem the decline.
Besides promoting and enhancing recreational fishing and boating, the Commission is charged by statute with the responsibility to manage and conserve reptiles and amphibians. If approved by the Commission, the new proposals would further restrict the capture, collection, taking, possession or killing of all native reptiles and amphibians in the state.
Some species, such as the timber rattlesnake, are often poorly understood, resulting in unnecessary destruction of the animals and their habitat. Several of the new proposals deal specifically with the timber rattlesnake.
The proposals would raise the cost of a timber rattlesnake permit from $5 to $50. It is illegal to hunt, take, catch, kill or possess a timber rattlesnake without a valid permit. The permit fee for groups that sponsor organized rattlesnake hunts, such as those popular in many northern Pennsylvania communities each summer, would be raised from the current $25 to $100. The proposals would also establish a minimum size limit for timber rattlesnakes. If approved, no timber rattler less than 42 inches in length could be taken, possessed or killed.
Currently, it is unlawful to possess or kill more than one timber rattlesnake in a calendar year. The annual limit would remain at one, but the new proposals would establish a tagging requirement. A rattlesnake hunter/collector would be required to detach and fill out a tag attached to the rattlesnake permit, but would not be required to attach the tag to the snake. Instead, the collector would be required to keep the tag in a safe location and present it to an officer on demand.
Organized rattlesnake hunts would be allowed to keep fewer snakes for exhibition. Currently, organized hunts may possess, for no more than 48 hours, the individual limit of one rattlesnake, multiplied by twice the number of permitted participants. The proposals would reduce the organized hunt possession limit by half -- the individual limit (one) times the number of permitted participants.
Fish Commission biologists have studied rattlesnake populations and believe timber rattlers have declined significantly in the past several decades. Some local populations have been completely destroyed. Habitat destruction, taking snakes for the reptile collector trade, unregulated snake hunts and killing snakes in casual encounters have all diminished this rattlesnake's numbers and range.
The proposals would also establish a new permit for hunting, collection or killing of northern copperheads, with an annual limit of one snake.
After many years of requests by conservation organizations, the Commission also proposes to prohibit the possession of box turtles. Box turtles are declining in Pennsylvania and all across their range. Roads, rights of way and other developments fragment box turtle home ranges so their movements put them at the mercy of speeding cars.
People often collect box turtles and keep them in pens at home, but recent studies show that the turtle's low reproductive potential, coupled with encroachments on its forest habitat, make box turtle collection a serious threat to the species' survival. Dr. William Belzer, recently retired from Clarion University, studied box turtle populations and learned that even moving a box turtle a few hundred yards can disorient the turtle and cause it to wander into danger.
"If you are lucky enough to see a box turtle, please leave it untouched," Belzer said.
If approved, the Fish and Boat Commission's new proposals would grant Belzer's cautions the power of law.
Other reptiles and amphibians that would receive greater protection under the proposals include: bullfrog, common snapping turtle, wood turtle, Blanding's turtle, Northern coal skink, mudpuppy, hellbender, marbled salamander, mountain chorus frog, Eastern hognose snake and others.
"This is an important environmental issue and I'm glad to see the Commission looking out for the whole range of organisms under its jurisdiction, beyond just those important to recreational fishing," said Sue Thompson, executive director of the Pennsylvania Biodiversity Partnership, an public/private organization that promotes the conservation of all native plant and animal species.
The Fish and Boat Commission encourages public comment on the proposals. The proposals can be read on the Commission's Web site at www.fish.state.ps.us. Comments can be made through a link on the site, or can be submitted in writing to: Executive Director, Pennsylvania Fish and Boat Commission, P.O. Box 67000, Harrisburg, Pa. 17106-7000. The Commission is requesting that comments be submitted by Jan. 15.
Proposed protection for reptiles, amphibians

Check out activist/cash.com for information on Sierra club. Ex-PeTA employees are infiltrating them along with other environmental organizations.