Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Obviously at this point, I do not know the complete genetics of this clutch, but the two Mojaves in the pic are siblings, the Ember Ball in the pic is from another clutch, but the two Dams are supposed to be mother and daughter, so who knows. I think the lighter Mojave might be a Fire cross. If the Mojave is a Fire cross, a pair of these Mojaves could produce the first Black eyed, and Blue eyed Lucies in the same clutch. I have my fingers crossed.

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has it proven to be anything?

I have what I believe to be a new Fire line, but without getting a white snake with black eyes, and a red iris, I am not going to say it is a Fire for sure. I am calling what I produced, an Ember Ball for now. If it proves out to be a Fire, the term Ember will just be a name for my line of Fires. If it proves out to be something other than a Fire, then the Ember name will be the name of the new morph. I personally am 99% sure it is a Fire, from emails, pics and seeing the Fires in person at Anaheim. Pics should be Ember, Ember, and Ember adult Female.

Ember ball, Thanks David
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1.0 Pied(04)(RDR)...Man that was a nice one...gone
1.0 Cinnamon Pastel(Bryan Kollwitz)(05)
2.0 Mojave Ball pythons(05)
0.1 Spider Ball(04)(RDR)
1.0 Butterscotch Ghost(04)
1.0 Albino(05)(T. Heuring/bell line)
4.2 Pastels(03's)(04's)(ASF,Graziani,Bell lines)
1.1 Wild Collected Adult Pastels(Ian G)
2.8 Orange Granites(05)
1.0 Yellow Belly(04)(Ian G)
2.0 Yellow Belly(05)(unproven)
1.3 Yellow belly(unproven)(02,03,04's)
2.0 100% HET CLOWN(04's)(MHMR)
3.3 100% het albinos(03's)(high contrast bell line)
0.1 poss Het Albino(03's)
2.0 100% het pieds(03's)(Vin Russo,CRE)
0.2 100% het pieds(03's)(04's)(RDR,TWL)
1.2 Poss het pieds(03's)(PETE KAHL)
2.1 Poss het pieds(00's)(01's) hoping to get PIEDS this year(Vin Russo, Pete Kahl)
25 Normal adult females
60 04 females
15 normal mixed 03's
20 Assorted weird ball pythons 04's
13 baby 2005 PASTELS just HATCHED...4-8-05 and 5-10-05 (O left)

Fire ball or what? What do the parents to the mojave clutch and the Ember clutch look like? Please post pictures of the parents of both clutches so we can figure this out. Thanks David
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1.0 Pied(04)(RDR)...Man that was a nice one...gone
1.0 Cinnamon Pastel(Bryan Kollwitz)(05)
2.0 Mojave Ball pythons(05)
0.1 Spider Ball(04)(RDR)
1.0 Butterscotch Ghost(04)
1.0 Albino(05)(T. Heuring/bell line)
4.2 Pastels(03's)(04's)(ASF,Graziani,Bell lines)
1.1 Wild Collected Adult Pastels(Ian G)
2.8 Orange Granites(05)
1.0 Yellow Belly(04)(Ian G)
2.0 Yellow Belly(05)(unproven)
1.3 Yellow belly(unproven)(02,03,04's)
2.0 100% HET CLOWN(04's)(MHMR)
3.3 100% het albinos(03's)(high contrast bell line)
0.1 poss Het Albino(03's)
2.0 100% het pieds(03's)(Vin Russo,CRE)
0.2 100% het pieds(03's)(04's)(RDR,TWL)
1.2 Poss het pieds(03's)(PETE KAHL)
2.1 Poss het pieds(00's)(01's) hoping to get PIEDS this year(Vin Russo, Pete Kahl)
25 Normal adult females
60 04 females
15 normal mixed 03's
20 Assorted weird ball pythons 04's
13 baby 2005 PASTELS just HATCHED...4-8-05 and 5-10-05 (O left)

I believe the Mojave was the father and the Ember was the mother.... I think they are all babies from the same clutch and their is a weird looking Mojave that was originally thought to be a Hypo Mojave... That was my take on it anyway and hopefully Dave will either back this up or correct me.
Tom Baker

I bought two female Hypo looking Balls at a local Pet Store. Supposedly, they were Mother and Daughter, from an unknown male. Like Tom said, I did a breeding loan with this female, which was bred to a Mojave Het Hypo male. The resulting offspring was 2 normal looking Balls, and 6 Mojaves. Of the 6 Mojaves, 4 looked different than a normal Mojave. Below is a pic of Female #1, and the Mojaves. NO EMBERS came from this clutch.

Pic #1 and #2 are the adult female I purchased, with the second pic showing what she really looks like in person.

Pic #3 is of the two Mojaves, siblings from the above female and a Mojave Het Hypo male. NOTE, the Ember in this pic was NOT from the Mojave clutch.

This is the second of the two females I bought at the Pet Store. This is supposedly the daughter of the adult female #1. This female was bred here by my male Bell line Orange Hypo, resulting in 7 eggs, 5 that were unfertile and molded, two that hatched. The two that hatched are what I have coined the Ember Ball. The two babies are 1.1, and Het Hypo from the Bell line male Hypo. Below is a pic of the adult female, female #2, and the Ember Balls.

Pic #1 and 2 are of the Embers, the first pic is one of the first taken, and taken pre first shed. The second pic is pretty accurate, and how they actually look now.

Pic #3 is the adult female #2, the supposed daughter of adult female #1. This is the female that laid the Ember eggs, when bred to the Orange Hypo male. I wish more than two had hatched.

Confused yet?

LOL Just kidding man had to get your attention, you probably threw up right there when you read the subject. Anyway beautiful creatures, if I understand correctly your trying to make children from those embers to get some sort of new morphs. I'm always wrong though so yea.

I produced a baby that looks pretty much the same as your baby ember from a Ghost/hypo looking unproven female. This is really weird. Got any belly shots of the 2 adult females. Thanks David
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1.0 Pied(04)(RDR)...Man that was a nice one...gone
1.0 Cinnamon Pastel(Bryan Kollwitz)(05)
2.0 Mojave Ball pythons(05)
0.1 Spider Ball(04)(RDR)
1.0 Butterscotch Ghost(04)
1.0 Albino(05)(T. Heuring/bell line)
4.2 Pastels(03's)(04's)(ASF,Graziani,Bell lines)
1.1 Wild Collected Adult Pastels(Ian G)
2.8 Orange Granites(05)
1.0 Yellow Belly(04)(Ian G)
2.0 Yellow Belly(05)(unproven)
1.3 Yellow belly(unproven)(02,03,04's)
2.0 100% HET CLOWN(04's)(MHMR)
3.3 100% het albinos(03's)(high contrast bell line)
0.1 poss Het Albino(03's)
2.0 100% het pieds(03's)(Vin Russo,CRE)
0.2 100% het pieds(03's)(04's)(RDR,TWL)
1.2 Poss het pieds(03's)(PETE KAHL)
2.1 Poss het pieds(00's)(01's) hoping to get PIEDS this year(Vin Russo, Pete Kahl)
25 Normal adult females
60 04 females
15 normal mixed 03's
20 Assorted weird ball pythons 04's
13 baby 2005 PASTELS just HATCHED...4-8-05 and 5-10-05 (O left)

Here is a picture Doug allowed me to take of the hatcling On fire Ball. She was produced from A proven Co-Dom Hypo(Fire IMO Just different line) To a Proven Ivory line Het ivory.
Thanks Douglas for the pictures.
P.S. I think she was for sale for 35K?????

I like it, it definately has a Yellow Belly influence. It looks like it has more Hypo characteristics than mine, which actually look more like a Pastel than a Hypo. The black on the snake in the pics is faded, my Embers, the black is not faded at all. I guess this is what makes Ball breeding so fun.

Here is my line I calling them lemon back hypos since they are proven codom.I don't know what supers will be .they are a little brighter than most fires pattern the same .we will have to see what supers will be next season.will be interesting combos.
Mike

http://forums.kingsnake.com/reply.php?id=935241,935640

MPU Exotics and I have been talking about our similar snakes for a few months now. They have sent me some good pics of their snakes, their camera is better than mine, and I compared their pic with my snake in person, and they are virtually identical. The MPU adult and my Female #2 also are VERY similar. They are all great looking snakes...and I would bet money that MPU's line and my line are both compatible, and will prove out to be the same morph. Just my opinion, based on MPU's good pics, and comparing mine to the pics.

Dave

How is something proven to be codominant without producing a dominant form and proving that the dominant is actually dominant?
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Davey Giltner

If you breed a specific trait with a wild type trait and the offspring show both traits (the one you bred and the wild type) then they would be considered to be a co-dominant trait. If all of the offspring showed up as tha specific trait - it would be a dominant trait - if non of the offspring showed up with that trait you-d have to breed it back to the parents to see if it's recessive.
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Tosha

"Nihil facimus sed id bene facimus"

7.33.0 Ball Python (Harry and Fluffy and gang)
1.0.0 Angolan Python (Anakin Skywalker)
0.0.1 Green Tree Python (Verdi - yeah I know but my kids love the book)
0.2.0 Feline (Pippen and Pandora)
0.0.1 Desert Tortoise (Pope John Paul aka JP )
2.2.1 Fish (1,2,3,4)
0.0.2 frogs rescued from pool skimmer

it only takes one breeding to say you have a proven codominant morph?
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Davey Giltner

You can make a pretty good assumption with one breeding (unless something major happens like you loose half the clutch)either the trait is there or it's not - but I would think that you'd need a couple of breedings to be absolutely certain what you've got.
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Tosha

"Nihil facimus sed id bene facimus"

7.33.0 Ball Python (Harry and Fluffy and gang)
1.0.0 Angolan Python (Anakin Skywalker)
0.0.1 Green Tree Python (Verdi - yeah I know but my kids love the book)
0.2.0 Feline (Pippen and Pandora)
0.0.1 Desert Tortoise (Pope John Paul aka JP )
2.2.1 Fish (1,2,3,4)
0.0.2 frogs rescued from pool skimmer

I would think you would need a few breedings, to include breeding back to the original stock, and then breeding those babies back to something in the same line to tell whether what you have is a codomint, or a visual het for the dominant form.
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Davey Giltner

Doesn't matter if there is a more dominant form ie a super or homozygous form - if the trait is reproducable when bred to a wild type then it would be considered co-dom. Take the pastel for example - it is co-dom even tho there is a super form - the spider is co-dom even tho there is no super form - the yellow belly is co-dom even tho it produces the ivory. All that is required for the co-dom label is that it reproduces itself when bred to a normal.
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Tosha

"Nihil facimus sed id bene facimus"

7.33.0 Ball Python (Harry and Fluffy and gang)
1.0.0 Angolan Python (Anakin Skywalker)
0.0.1 Green Tree Python (Verdi - yeah I know but my kids love the book)
0.2.0 Feline (Pippen and Pandora)
0.0.1 Desert Tortoise (Pope John Paul aka JP )
2.2.1 Fish (1,2,3,4)
0.0.2 frogs rescued from pool skimmer

Super= dominant.regardless of what it looks like.
You can tell a dominant animal in a litter of codominants.
You cannot however tell a dominant animal from a litter of incomplete dominant animals.
In order to be classied as codominant, it not only has to produce a dominan't form, but the dominant form has to be visibly different from the codominant form.If you produce a whole litter of the oddity when breeding it to a normal, you have a dominant, reguardless of what it looks like.
If you have a codominant animal then you probably (unless it has been bred before) wont know what to expect the babies to look like.
if you have an incomplete dominant animal(often confused with dcodominant) you know what you are going to get, little babies that look like the adult.
Until the animal is bred to one like it, you can't say you have a codominant.Even if something really freaky comes out of the breeding, it cannot be considered "super" until it produces entire litters of the codominant form when breeding to normals.
That was my understanding anyway.
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Davey Giltner

I think that the Pastel, Fire, and Cinns are all Co Doms, because there is a visual Super form. A Dom animal, in my opinion would be a Spider, no proven Super.

I think codom is realy a visable het.for whatever super is produced .like yellowbellies.het for ivory.fires het for blk.eyed lucy.mojave het.for blu eyed so on and so on.But codom would be spiders and pins.Just mt opinion.
Mike

It is a good thing that genetics are not based on your opinions then.
A dominant snake can be achieved through either a codominant to codom breeding, or through incomplete dominant to incomplete dominant breeding.
Those animals where there is NO visible difference between the het. and homozygous(dominant) forms would be incomplete dominant.
Those that can easily be recognized as dominant, are dominant from a codominant mutation.
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Davey Giltner

See Misskiwi67's post for most of the corrections. The only thing I have to add is that co-dominant and dominant refer to mutations, not individual animals. Pastel is a co-dominant mutation because the hets and homozygous animals are both mutations and look different from each other. A homozygous (super) pastel isn't a "dominant form" - it's just the homozygous form of a co-dominant mutation. If a homozygous spider is ever proven and is in all ways the same as the heterozygous spiders we have seen so far then spider will be considered a completely dominant mutation but the heterozygous spiders will not be the "co-dominant form".

Thanks For clarification.
Mike

Dayve,
You have it right. The spider is a true dominant trait with the heterozygous and homozygous genotypes showing the same phenotype (looks the same). Co-Dominant is used to describe Pastels, Cinny's, etc. where the homozygous form is phenotypically different than the heterozygous form. There is no way to definitively know with only one breeding whether a trait is Dominant or Co-Dominant.
Grant

Dominant and co-dominant are completely different.

Spider is Dominant. There is no super form. You can have a homozygous spider that produces 100% spider babies when breed to a wild-type and you can have a heterozygous spider that produces 50% spider babies when bred to a wild-type. The only way to know the difference is by breeding them to determine if they are heterozygous or homozygous.

Pastel is Co-Dominant. When the gene is homozygous, there is a visual difference, and homozygous animal will produce 100% pastel babies. Because there is a visual difference, there is no need to breed the animal to determin its genetics.

In order to determine if an animal is Co-Dominant, you must prove that a visual homozygous form exists.

Yer right - I'm not sure where my mind was this afternoon.
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Tosha

"Nihil facimus sed id bene facimus"

7.33.0 Ball Python (Harry and Fluffy and gang)
1.0.0 Angolan Python (Anakin Skywalker)
0.0.1 Green Tree Python (Verdi - yeah I know but my kids love the book)
0.2.0 Feline (Pippen and Pandora)
0.0.1 Desert Tortoise (Pope John Paul aka JP )
2.2.1 Fish (1,2,3,4)
0.0.2 frogs rescued from pool skimmer

LOL...

Hey, at least you're trying to explain it to people! I usually don't have the energy to give it the effort until someone is confused...

Yup, I didn't see your post before responding above.

i just added another fire to the line up, can't wait to cross him out.

thanks
josh baer
tampabaymorphs

Thanks I hope They prove to be just balls that make prttier balls.LOL
Mike