Reptile & Amphibian Forums

This post is in response to a post by Terry Dunham in a strand last week. I’ll include a link to that strand below. Terry, sorry it took so long, but I’ve had a tough week and am very limited on time right now. Sorry also for such a long response.

Me..>>The thing is snakes are used to a variety of temps....

Terry D..I don't think this is necessarily true. If you're speaking of wild-caught snakes, absolutely. If you're speaking of captive-reared snakes raised by someone who kept them in an environment with varying temps, probably true, again. But if we're speaking of captive bred animals that have been raised in conditions with relatively stable temps, i believe those snakes are used to that, adapted to that, etc., and may fare as well or better under those conditions than under varying conditions.

As you say, it's important to keep our minds open--absolutely true--and i think this concept is another one worth factoring into these considerations.

Terry, I was referring to snakes in the wild as being adapted to varying conditions and certain extremes of temperatures. I agree with you that snakes in captivity can and do become adapted to captive conditions to a certain extent. Many become domesticated, so to speak, i.e. the corn snake. The point I made, “varying the temps might help”, was just a suggestion. Sometimes snakes in captivity revert to their wild instincts, depending on which species and other factors. I should have qualified that statement. I like your point, however, and I think it would make a great topic for discussion. I think where we might disagree somewhat is on, “What conditions are best for our snake to adapt to?”

When someone says, “My snake won’t eat”, that could be for a lot of reasons. We start making suggestions for the “why” because we don’t know all the factors that went into the management of that snake. It’s possible that some baby snakes have a strong instinct to brumate/hibernate and maybe a cool down period will spur some activity later on. Maybe varying the temperatures on a daily basis will spur activity, if your snake is adapted to hunting under cool conditions. But as you (Terry D.) have pointed out, snakes are also adapted to captive conditions, and I would think a vast majority of the snakes sold in the U. S. are like this.

I have worked with Eurasian ratsnakes since 1988 and most of my knowledge of behavior and captive conditions come from this experience. I have always kept a few corn snakes for a control group too. Most of the Eurasians from the northern zones are adapted, in the wild, for a brumation/hibernation because of cold winter temperatures. I have had limited success in getting them to stay active longer into the season, but it does work to an extent, depending on species. For example: the Russian ratsnake, Elaphe schrencki, is a northern species that has a very short active period in the wild, from about May to September. Freshly imported snakes are almost impossible to keep active past early September. However, babies can be kept going almost all winter, and future captive generations often can be kept going into October with some individuals even longer. (I’ll qualify that by saying I live at about 45* North latitude also. Some folks might have better luck living in southern states.) The Chinese twin-spotted ratsnake, Elaphe bimaculata, on the other hand, comes from central China (Yangtze Basin) which is somewhat subtropical. It is closest to the corn snake in natural behavior and can be kept going all winter, if necessary. However, they do desire a brumation/hibernation period and will benefit from that.

As far as our kingsnakes go, some come from the northern zones and may require a brumation/hibernation period to do well, and others come from southern areas and may not need a brumation, or at best a short, “cool” time, imho. If a person gets a baby from a breeder who has had them in captivity for a long time, I would say the chances are the baby is adapted to conditions in captivity which would allow it to probably stay active year ‘round. Whether this is the best way to keep them or adults is another question and will require more thought.

I really think folks see different behaviors according to how they keep their snakes. It’s always interesting to hear about how people keep the snakes they are talking about and when no information is posted along with a statement, such as, “My snake won’t eat”, then it is really hard to respond to such a post. Maybe, as a followup, herpers can give examples of how their animal has adapted to the conditions they have presented to them, or maybe some don’t even think captive animals can adapt, and may want to chime in with that.

Currently, I am raising up a pair of mexicana, a number of young getula, and my partner and I have several w/c adult getula. I have kept other kingsnakes in the past as well as working with our native t. triangulum for many years. My thoughts on conditions for kingsnakes in captivity are based largely on my thoughts about captive snakes in general. I try to keep an open mind and don’t think that what works for me is necessarily the best for everyone. I’m sure others have other captive conditions that work well for them.

Thanks all….TC

link to previous post

-----
Ratsnake Haven...researching ratsnakes since 1988

Ratsnake Haven Group...an information providing list site.

There was a good response to your question a few days ago, Oct 25th..(link below). But I don't think you have a large enough range in your setup to do what was suggested. It sounds like your pyro is going off feed due to the change in seasons. I'd go back to conditions you had over summer and see if it will go back to eating as usual. If not, you could try increasing overall temps by extra heat on warm end of your 20-long, or you could brumate the snake for a few months and see if that would get it eating again. 68*F might be cool enough to brumate if your snake is otherwise healthy. Can your room get even cooler? Your location may be important too, as we are discussing in this strand.

I believe some keepers have pyros that stay active much longer, but they may also be located in areas where outdoor conditions are much better than in northern zones. With this species the keeper's location could make a difference, imo.

TC

previous post

Thanks Yes I went back to summer condition/temps but just as important something which I didnt notice but after reading posts here and few in milk forums it dawned on me it might be same problem.
Is that untill couple days ago it was overcast and dreary here for 3 weeks. All it did was rain or cloud up. Now its sunny again and I see he was out last night.
After a few more days of sun I am going to feed him a thawed fuzzie.
I hope it was lack of sun as room he is sun gets indirect sun and sunny today in there. He hides during day but he peers out here and there knows its sunny.
I agree the only way to have such a temp gradient would be bigger tank which I would but since he is a baby a 20 long so far plenty room.
I hope he eats this week.
Thanks
Rita

Hi Terry(TC) I see your still struggling to understand what snakes do. So I will hopefully confuse you more, again, and again. But first.

This weeks report, three snakes around my house, one diamondback, one mohave, on the street in front of my property(wheres
Gordon and Andy) and this longnose. The longnose was in my driveway at 9:30pm friday night. Temps around 57F.

There is a story behind this longnose, its a beauty, and so is its mother, ask about this if your interested.

Yesterday in the field, I saw lots of snakes and lizards, 2 sonoran whipsnakes, one adult and one juvi. One juvi Banded coachwhip(M.f.cinctum) or some such thing.

One really nice gophersnake

Another mohave, a patchnose, a ringneck and a nice mountain hornlizard and this Alligator lizard,

Of course there was many normally seen lizards of several species.

So, while captive folks keep trying to hibernate captives, wildsnakes may have other ideas.

Now to your situation. I feel your between a rock and a hardplace. That is, you take some "theories" as fact and you take other "assumptions" as fact as well, then you try to make sense of it. That will never work, it will only give you a headacke. Try gathering solid current information, not old stuff, that may have been as wrong then as it is now.

For instance, in a recent post, you stated the snakes are hibernating in your area, that is, they are at temps just above freezing and have no or little movement. This all pure assumption on your part, I asked in a passed post, did you ever take or read what these temps really are in your area? Without intimate knowledge of those temps, you have no idea what those temps are. Your guessing. This is one of your assumptions.

Also if you use your difinition of hibernation and the newly coined brumation, then you must consider snakes hibernate/brumate, at all times of the year. As they do indeed lower and raise their metabolism to conserve energy/moisture, at all times.

The problem is simple, you and others want to make a simple thing complicated. That is, you take information from a zillion sources and try and make sense of it. In my opinion, that is without question confusing you to a point you will not ever obtain a clear picture of what snakes do.

To help you, you need to clear up where your getting information from. For instance, you stated, if snakes do not hibernate, its going to make lots of old timers mad. In truth, snakes either do or don't, and the old timers have nothing to do with it.

To help you solve this problem. I suggest to KISS, keep it simple stupid. And yes, most of us do act stupid with this subject.

There are some very important knowns. So lets look at some. For simplicities sake, lets use kingsnakes, as this is a kingsnake forum. Captive kingsnakes occur from the top of South America, to Canada. Lets say we know nothing about what they do in nature. But we do have lots of captive information. We know, that all kingsnakes respond positively to the same basic range of captive temps, say, 55F to 90F, if givin this range, they will all prosper. Also, all kingsnakes have about the same minimum low lethal temps. That is, all perish at prolonged temps below about 30F. With this information in mind, you have a wide range of kingsnakes all requiring about the same enviornmental temperature range. Lets add, they will all die when exposed to about the same high temps.

This tells you, you have snakes that require the same conditions, but of course different. They different because some come from South America, and others from various habitats from the mexican plateau to the American west and east and north.

So whats different about them?????? that too is simple, they acquire their "like" conditions differently. That is, they use different behaviors to acquire the same needs.

So in different areas, the behavior reflects the areas conditions, that is, in the east, your kingsnakes can use people orientated devices such as AC, and occur on the surface, more often in the summer, your not so hot and dry. In the desert, the summers are too hot and dry for snakes to be near the surface, so they are more often found under AC and near the surface in the fall winter months. These are just two examples of many different conditions kingsnakes occur in.

Now consider, these types of snakes do not require AC or being on the surface to exsist. That is only a convience for us. They can and do live out the entire lifes without the need to surface. If you question this, consider how often mating, nesting, and most feeding events are seen. Or "NOT" seen.

I could go on, but lets change the subject.

I get the feeling that the biggist problem is the cart leading the horse. That is, captive terminology is leaky into what people think snakes are. For instance cooling is a captive term, used by keepers and may or may not reflect any dang thing more then what some people do with their captive snakes. In a recent post, you continue your claim that snakes hibernate, then in another recent post, keepers say neonates do not hibernate. hmmmmmmmm whats that about?

Back to nature, when the weather changes, snakes change as well. They move to places that better fit their needs, such as AC. The pic artificial cover to aquire higher temps when its cooler out. What are the snakes doing that have no AC? I bet they are nature cover that allows the same.

With this in mind, in captivity, many of you do not change your temps to meet the season, you simply say, they quit feeding, so they are hibernating. Hmmmmmmmmm if it wasn't for the cage walls, the snakes would have moved to under the waterheater(a place with more suitable conditions) instead, you simply say the snake did this or that. When in fact, you forced the snake to do this or that. You offered no oppertunitity to allow the snake to use its normal natural behavior. The point is, the behaviors to aquire suitable temps is what is different between species and is of huge interest to me. Its the fun part, the temps the use, are simple and widespread.

Lastly you say snakes adapt to captivity, I don't think so, I think your confusing adaption to respond. They surely respond differently to many captive conditions. Later dude, wild things are calling me. Yahoo, FR

I have come to wonder if some of the snakes we find near the surface in the winter are actually seeking to warm themselves, or are they close to the surface because it is cooler than down below and they are trying to keep their metabolisms lower. Granted I do know some are keeping warmer and continue feeding etc.such as lyres and other desert forms. But for example, Grand Canyon Rattlesnakes often den on the north side of a hill during the winter were it is considerably cooler and I firmly believe this is intentional. I am one the old style farts who still cool my snakes in the winter, not really because I think it is all that neccessary but because it has always worked and it gives me a needed break to get things done. Just for the record I have never had any problems with pyros going off feed in the fall. They will just continue for me whether they are fresh wild caught or captive bred. The only reason they shut down is because I shut them down. However once I have done so they seem to realize what is going on and make every effort to keep their metabolism low. If we happen to get a warm spell all my snakes that are being cooled will go to the cooler end of their enclosure (and many stay in the water dish as this maintains more stable temps)Also I have noticed that with pyros, once they are cooled for the winter they don't seem to want to respond to food till an appropriate amount of time has passed. One often hears of this problem with breeders who are trying to get a jump start on the season and remove pyros after only two or three months of cooling.They just don't want to feed for another month or two. I have always found four months to be a good interval. My rattlesnake cages are situated so that there is always a warmer and cooler end whether I turn the basking light on or not. They also will seem to choose the cooler end throughout the winter. Addmittedly I haven't tried cooling the room down to the usual 40-50 degree range but turning their lights on daily to see how they would respond thru the winter. However any of these snakes will continue to feed thru the winter for me if I so choose. I think any given individual just responds to it's conditions. A wild pyro at the bottome of Agua Caliente may be able to continue going all winter while one one up on Mt. Wrightston will shut itself down. On the reverse side the Agua Caliente snake may shut down for a few months in spring and early summer while the Mt. Wrightston animal is going full bore. Just some rambling....

Hey Rich! How are ya??

Interesting thread here, with good points from you and Frank.

I chuckled at you saying you hadn't tried turning on the basking light in your cooled down room in winter to see what would happen. I bet you already know. Your gravid females would use it a lot. If you have pairs that are really bonded, the associated males would move nearby, but stay cooler than their gravid pals. In my experience, those individuals not gearing up to produce young the following summer will stay away from the heat during the winter months..... unless of course.... you feed them! They know when they have the temperature choice, and will feed accordingly.

This matches wild behavior for lepidus in my study areas, and from what I can tell from a smaller data set, willardi too. Ridgenose beat to a different drum, but, overall they are playing the same song as the rest of the snakes in the area.

Hey, HTM. If gravid females are basking in winter does that mean they are going to be able to drop their babies early in spring? Or maybe that basking doesn't do anything to speed up development of the embryos? Just curious.

Terry

Why would there be a need to speed up anything? Its part of what they do normally.

Wild rattlesnakes, on our site, are funny beasts, they breed in the fall, the spring and the summer. Yet, they seem to normally drop their babies at the begining of the monsoons.

I wonder if wild colubrids breed at all these times too, we just do not see them because they are out of sight.

I think you think snakes are active when out crawling, I call that gooning. I think they are active when they are participating in important events like pairing, breeding, recruiting, etc. Much of this is done in the winter. Hence I do not believe in hibernation. FR

Frank, I get your point. "Gooning", haha, that's a funny term. I have always thought the snakes were active if they were not brumating/hibernating (not eating and "turned off" so-to-speak). I think a lot of your data pertains to crotes and most of my info pertains to colubrids. I think the crotes stay active, not because of eating, but because of reproductive activities that you have pointed out. I can see them being biologically capable of that even if they are not eating hardly at all thru Dec-Feb. I think that's possible with some colubrids also as has been pointed out with several herpers.

You're right, it wouldn't have to be the development of the eggs. Crotes can mate at any time of the year and still drop their babies at the same time in summer every year. The snakes could be active in other ways. I could come up with a scenario where just adult females would be active and males wouldn't need to or would have to be doing something else (later on that).

For colubrids...colubrids can be active all year and can be feeding or breeding or having clutches all year. That's mostly in the tropics/subtropics. Colubrids also can be Fall breeders and still have a clutch at normal times in late Spring. Most colubrids, however, I think have the normal activity pattern of mating in Spring and having the normal period of carrying eggs/babies and hatching in summer/late summer.

I have two species, Elaphe dione and E. bimaculata, Dione's and twin-spotted ratsnakes, that breed in Fall (now) and will have clutches next Spring, on time, w/o breeding again. This is one of the reasons I can take them out of brumation at any time and they will start the process of developing embryos that are already fertile.

More later. Gotta run...TC

A Chinese twin-spot with eggs....

No sir, you are totally wrong. I am a kingsnake fella and they have been a lifelong study, but, some stinking how, I got envolved with HKM and hes a rattlesnake nut. It happens I am good at finding all sorts of snakes, So, I became envolved with crotes.

I also do/did extensive longterm work with Lyres(my first favorite snake species) gilas, pyros, mexican montane kings and more.

The only difference with Crotes is, what I mentioned earlier, but you dismissed or ignored. They are thick skinned so they spend more time on the surface. But they do the same things.

I mentioned this before too, snakes have the same basic physical needs, and now I will add, the same basic behaviors. ITs how they do these things that differs. Crotes do spend more time up, kingsnakes much more time down. Crotes are a great learning tool, because they allow us to see them.

As Rich mentioned, snakes feed when they are not in reproductive mode. So I will add, snakes around the whole stinking world, have two basic seasons, reproductive season, and foraging, for lack of a better term. Foraging is lacking because, it suggests moving to feed. Where most all snakes let prey come to them first, then as a last resort, go and seek prey. What this means is, they reproduce in the season of least food availibility. In the state, on average, its the winter months. Reproductive season, includes, gathering, pairing, mating, nesting, laying eggs, giving birth, and more we don't understand. Foraging season, is mainly concerned with growth, and restocking energy stores(for adults)

There are many reasons for this, the most important being, a female snake must support her life. IF she is gravid when prey is plentiful, she is at a huge disadvantage.

On average, these seasons are 50/50, that is, each is about half the year.

In north america, the breeding season goes from late fall, to early summer(live bearers) foraging season goes from early summer, to late fall.

Something else to consider, snake prey, birds, rodents, amphibs, lizards, etc, are at there most abundant in early summer to early fall.

Now consider, snakes do not make rules and laws, like humans and more importantly YOU. You say, they this or that. They say, I(the snakes) will do what is necessary to exsist. What that means is, they will indeed break these guidelines as necessary. But in general they apply.

Also, what your totally missing is, in any snake population, there are many different approaches. That is, the reproductive individuals, do one thing, the non-reproductive individuals do another, then the neonates do another. And of course theres the gooners, which are the sick, homeless(this is key, homeless) individuals, that do a complelely different thing then the rest of the population.

Each population or species, if you will, CONTAINS, all these types of individuals. Each has a percentage of the population. The populations health, as a whole, by what percentage these groups are. The populations health varies from year to year.

A non productive population is mostly adults.
A declining population is mostly old adults.
A healthy thriving population contains individuals of all age groups.
A dying population contains sick adults(lack of resourses) or sick and dying of all age groups(desease)

Sir, you "HAVE" to know the above before you look at snake populations and activities. Its a prerequisite.

Sir, you say, snakes do this or that, but I am confused, which snakes are we talking about? The different parts of the population or the different types of populations? Because in reality, they are all different in their behavior and activity patterns.

Then add, snakes occur in various habitats. But consider, are there physical requirements different? I do not think so, They are very close to the same(within a very few degrees), considering the wide range of temps their habitats offer for use. If they were so different, they would have evolved into different types of snakes. The northern snakes would have evolved into requiring a much lower set of temperature ranges. They haven't. But they have developed different behavioral patterns to deal with the weather conditions. Guess what, behavioral patterns are different from population to population, even in the south. There behaviors are honed by their ability to survive in a certain set of conditions. Behaviors like, prey selection, shelter selection(winter, spring, summer, fall) duration of breeding season, clutch sizes, clutch frequency, etc

Sir, the above is basic biology.

I could go, on and on, but this is enough for you to consider. My advice is, before you ask such a question as, do snakes hibernate, you need to understand the above. The real answer is, no, but some parts of the populations, and some populations, are stay at a lower metabolism level for extented periods, due to enviornmental conditions. Which may or may not include winter cold. Sir, this is not a play of words. If you understood the above, then you would understand this? But I fear you don't.

So my advice is, stop reading specialized papers and start to understand population dynamics and basic biology. Then re-read what a reptile is. Then understand what their advantages as a reptile are. Then start over. No offense, you have to many false paradigns(rules and restrictions or in a simpler term, straws)

Don't worry, I grab at straws too, just different ones. Good luck FR

I don't think it has anything to do with speeding up the process. I believe winter basking is part of the process, and I have seen it in AZ, CA, TX, New Mex and parts of Mexico too. And in most cases, yes, they don't move much to sit out in winter. The interesting part about that is, they winter in different locations within their home turf depending on whether they are gravid or not. They put themselves in good spots so they won't have to go far to thermoregulate. And why not? They are not stupid. I am humbled by their abilities to meet the challenges of survival. They are so damn good at what they do that I feel like a pinheaded turd whenever I sit down to write these "rattlesnakes do this" statements.

In the far north, the system may be very different due to surface temperature extremes, but does that mean they are not engaging in some of these behaviors underground??? All individuals of a given species do not do the same thing at the same time at the same place. If they did, we wouldn't be discussing this stuff. In fact, if they did, they would be boring.

And some snakes do feed when it is cool. I have found snakes feeding in the upper forties: lepidus, willardi, molossus, scutulatus, triaspis come to mind right off the top.

Happy Halloween folks.

Thanks for the post and info. I think we're approaching the same goal via different routes. I tend to focus on colubrids in the north and you all tend to focus on crotes in the south. I think we'll come to an understanding. I am seeing snakes much differently since these strands began and am interested enough to pursue it. Your studies are very interesting and I wish I could work with you on them. Gotta run..more later.

TC

Its about all snakes, not north vs. South.

The key here is a giant barrier in your head. That says they are different. They are not different, they require the same conditions, its how they use their enviornment that is different.

In a bacis concept, if they were that different, they would have evolved into totally different kinds of snakes.

As I have said, they all have the same exact physical needs. Think about and stop putting up barriers.

Lastly, you do understand, its not about you being convinced about this subject. That will not happen, you have no experience and to many false paradigns. You just need to open your mind and have a look with being so darn prejudiced. Good luck on that. FR

Well, sort of.... My primary field research species is lepidus. However, I have studied subocs since the seventies, triaspis since the mid-nineties (but paid careful attention to them rangewide since the late seventies). Frank and I work (worked??? DOH!!!!) together on several projects besides our rattlesnake work. My alterna fetish has been renewed because of my teenage son.. so that since the late seventies. Add my youth and formative years (mid 60's to late seventies)in NY with milksnakes, timbers and others (Found ring necks and browns under AC in mid winter but had no clue what I was seeing). I take notes on almost every snake I see (I be BS'ing if I said "every" snake cause I see them all the time all year here even around town. For instance, just saw a fine 30" jet black coachwhip with a copper colored head about 20 minutes ago crossing the road in front of my fire truck!!). One of my main focuses is how different species (not just Crotes) apply themselves to the same dance card. And it is the same dance card. The formula is one of balancing hydration plus caloric intake plus thermoregulatory possibilities to produce more of themselves. Quite simple actually. It is filling in the specifics variable that makes me age and grey, and spend time with even older, decrepid, senile guys like Frank (who loves ya FR!!!).

I believe ya (that FR is old and decrepid, haha).

Sounds like you've done lots of work with colubrids, very interesting. I guess I like the colubrids best, but also like seeing crotes in the wild. I've always been fascinated by the Eastern massasauga. It has been challenging for me to try to find out how they live. It also has been very difficult for researchers until recently. Now they do pit tagging, etc, to track the beasts and are starting to get a better picture of where they are at different times of the year. One of the young guys in my group is studying with some researchers and sees quite a few 'saugas during the summer.

The earliest I've seen catenatus in n. MI is in April when I dug one up from under a deep pile of logs near a mill. The logs were about six levels deep and the snake was cold and covered in mud. The temp was around 45-50*F at the bottom of the pile. Lots of rattlers have been seen in late September in the swamps where folks are bear hunting. I believe that's because it's where they go to hibernate. They are always seen sunning themselves on higher ground staying out of the water. The swamp is an interesting place I'll talk about later after I get some winter temp readings

BTW, I saw my first twin-spotted rattler this summer in AZ...

It's a crummy shot, but the dang thing was fast, and the only chance I got.

I like your formula. Sounds like a winner. How do you think the basking and warming in winter helps them in this regard? Do you think their bodies are still growing in winter?

TC

Hey Hugh,

I'm doing good! Hope all is well on your end. Thanks for the info. I have seriously been considering leaving the basking light on this winter for the gravid females, especially the abyssus girls. They bred at the onset of monsoon as you would expect. The abyssus very typically seek coolness. Their light comes on daily but they always seem to keep as far from it as possible (ca~90-95F under the light and 70F at the far end of the cage). This month they suddenly started spending considerable time under it. They plumped up so fast I would actually be afraid to just cool them down like the other stuff. My molossus female on the other hand is still staying at the far cool end. I'll keep ya posted!

Rich

While 95F hot spot is great, your cooler temps are far to warm. As you know, most individuals will indeed seek cool temps 55F to 65F, went not in need of heat. This is year around.

A better question is, why on earth to they need heat, and better yet, when? Some of the whys are simple, like to digest food. But, thats not always true either. Its actually seems to be more about certain stages of digestion. They do not stay on heat during the entire period of digestion.

During certain parts of the reproductive process, yes thats true again but indeed they will only seek heat during certain key times during that process.

How about shedding, of course you see a lot of snakes on or near the surface in shed. So you can include that as a need for heat. I mean, to replace your entire surface must take some energy. Of course I am sure there are many more, not so obvious reasons like building the immune system, no lumps or bumps or color difference here. Again something like healing is a good reason, injured snakes seek heat.

I am sure sure there are other reasons too, know of any? But inbetween these, which is the greatest amount of their lifes, they are conserving or better yet, just living in cooler temps.

Did I ever tell the the story of HKM and the day he toasted me with willards?(the only time that ever happened, hahahahaha) Yet we were out on a nice cold winter day. I was hunting in the hot spots(smarter then the average bear) and Hugh was hanging around in the shady cold canyon bottoms. Its friggin late Dec. Hughs a nut isn't he? Well I hear a yell, "I got one" I thought to myself, what a polar bear. Willards, he yells. I went down and right in the middle of a clearing, coiled in leaves was a willards. Lets refresh ourselves, Late dec. cold canyon bottom, in the shade, and may I add, in the mourning. Temps were around 40 so odd F. Well that lucky stiff. Then that stiff did it again. Thats two cold, coiled in the open, early morning, leaf sitting willards, in late Dec. (its my friggin birthday for heavens sake) Why did HKM decide to pick this day to show me up. Ok ok, lets get over it, surely I am not going to change the tested and proven methods I am using. HKM is just lucky today. DANG it, it did it again. Thats three. hmmmmmmmmm I need to rethink this. To this day, I keep rethinking that. he rocked my world. FR

but my wife will only let me have one of the spare bedrooms for a snakeroom.(partypooper!) The other serves as her office and no snakes allowed except her favorites, the Oxybelis. THEY are now her snakes, lol. With my snake room I have to find a balance with the heat as most of the colubrids are in rack systems without any supplementary heat (just not enough outlets)They all still have some degree of gradient. Other wise most snakes are just placed to take advantage of air stratification with pyros and milks at floor level and the more heat tolerant snakes at higher levels. The crotes in the breeding cages are in the coolest spots possible with extra holes driled in the cool side of the cages to allow as much heat escape as possible. It's all I can do for the time being until we get some remodeling done.

Great story about the willards! Snakes never cease to amaze me. Reminds me of the time we spent several hours looking for leps in the usuall rocky areas and then on the way back to the truck finding them actually in the water under the marsh grass growng in the slower portions of the creek. Of course they were dumb enought to buzz us or we never would have guessed to look there for anything but garters.

Rich

Hey, Rich. Nice post..thanks for responding.

Interesting info about the pyros. I didn't know if it were possible to keep them active all winter. Sometimes I think where we live makes a big difference. Maybe living in AZ gives the snakes more reason to stay active. I think they can sense the outdoor conditions.

Interesting that some snakes seek micro habitats on the surface when the temps are very favorable down below. Maybe they can't find their food down below. Maybe some snakes just need the rest and/or to cycle reproductively and prefer cooler temps to be able to do that.

Cheers...TC

Hey Terry,

Yes, it has been a very interesting and enjoyable group of threads. As far as climate goes with respect to pyros, remember that I am at 7000 ft. Daytime highs during the winter here usually run anywhere from 20-40F, nightime temps range from -10 to 30F. Right now we are averaging around 55 in the daytime and 28 at night. I do keep a space heater going in my snake room which keeps the back ground temp at floor level in the 65-70 range, 75 -85 at 6ft. above floor level.

To touch on a few things in your post below, I don't think the fact that they are sitting completely inactive means that they are truely dormant, they are just choosing to be inactive. I think the fact that they can consciously go lower to keep below the frost line as it advances speaks for itself, or the fact that they stay in water that does not freeze. I am constantly amazed at what snakes can tolerate. I usually keep my pyros at floor level just below the cracked window which averages 35-40 degrees during the winter. Once while down at my moms house in Tucson for Christmas we had a cold snap in Flag that lasted for about four days. When I got home my pyro enclosures were at 23-25F and had been so for a couple of days. I fully expected to find candycane popsicles, but they were just crawling slowly around and looking at me like "hey dude, long time no see!" Snakes I have flipped while temps were in the 30's seem to be fully aware, just a little slow moving. The only time I have ever seen any negative reactions in native species to cold were with Mexican garters I kept as kid in outdoor enclosures. They always became very ataxic during cold spells but would recover fine once warmed a little.

And this brings up a question. How are wild snakes affected by in-between temps and do they avoid these altogether? I have found with captive snakes that cold itself does not seem to make them sick. It seems that when temps are turned down slowly and up slowly that snakes are more prone to respitory and other sicknesses from the in-between temps. I always just turn the heat off suddenly and on just as suddenly in the spring and have no problems. I admit I always shudder when I see advice to turn the heat down gradually over a months time. What do you guys think?

Rich

Rich, thanks for the neat post.

I think the problem is semantics. I think inactive is when the snakes stop eating, turn themselves off so-to-speak, and don't move around very much. Absolutely, the snakes can keep moving around at cold temps. I've accidently done that too. I've seen kingsnakes brumating in their water jug for months at a time with just their head sticking out. Their eyes are open, tongue moving, they could move out of the water if they wanted. For my purposes I've considered them shut down, but for you all they are active. Pyros are extremely hardy. I don't think green rats are very cold tolerant and I would think they would one that would seek the warmer temps in winter.

The why of snakes getting sick at inbetween temps, I have two possibilities. First, maybe it's not the snakes, maybe the vectors are more active at those temps, like people are more prone to colds at the inbetween temps. Second, maybe the snakes are staying active when they should be inactive to avoid poor conditions. Maybe we're forcing them to be active at temps they normally avoid. Just guesses based on very few observations through the years. Maybe something to think about.

Thanks for all your cold weather data, etc. Later...TC

Hey Terry,

Green rats are very active in very cold temps in AZ. I have seen them in December, large adults, with food boluses, crawling when it was in the upper forties, AND, complete cloud cover!! In my experience, they would be one of the most cold active snakes I encounter in AZ. Many years ago, my boss at the Desert Museum and I headed to the Patagonia Mts. for some project on 30 November. As we drove through a green rat hot spot I slowed the vehicle and said this was a good area. It was 48 degrees, drizzling, solid cloud cover. It had been in the 30's the night before. It was 8:45 a.m. When I slowed, and told him why, he sort of laughed at me... The car in front of us hit a 44" male. I have many such stories, not just a few incidental observations. Another example: a C. scutulatus on the high plateau west of Valentine Texas in 1980. December, raining. mid forties. An adult female crossing Hwy 90. So my question here is an obvious one. How do they do this when there is no heat source???? It is one thing to be basking on a sunny day when it is 45 degrees because they can find heat sink materials and then also control their thermoregulation. What about when there is no warm spot????

Like I said below somewhere, they are very very good at what they do. I think one of the biggest problems in understanding snake behavior and ecology is herpetologists lack of open-mindedness to look at what most herpers think just doesn't exist. I started doing this along time ago and I am amazed at what I have seen!! I only wish I could say I understand it.

Hi, Hugh. Let me do a little story too.

Me and two of my friends were headed for s.e. Ohio. It was mid-summer, but it had been raining all day, total clouds, and only in the 50's. We decided to stop at Killdeer Plains on the way down, so I could show them one of my study areas for the massasauga rattlesnake (Eastern). Just as we were approaching the sun started to peek out a little. We got out of the car and within five minutes had found our first 'sauga. About 15 min. later we found another. Later that afternoon it got pretty warm and we didn't see anymore snakes. I think they were just below the surface though.

One of the actual snakes...

I don't mean to argue with you. I don't doubt your observations at all. I just want to point out a possible explanation. This rattler along with your green rat that had eaten couldn't process their meals in temps of 40's or 50's. They would have had to find a heat source to process any food items. I think even in December in AZ there are probably a good number of days that are warm enough that snakes can find spots to process food. I didn't used to think that, but you guys have convinced me. I think certain snakes are probably active year 'round.

I'm amazed and very happy that green rats stay active that long and looks like all winter. I plan to study them. I think they've got to find ways to stay warm, at least part of the time. I actually kept a group of green rats for several years. The first year I lost one of them trying to brumate them at about 55*F for a couple months. I also had a couple others go into a kind of "shock" thing when they got too cold. I finally gave up cooling them below 65*F and didn't cool babies at all. I never tried breeding them because I decided to sell them and wait until I moved to AZ, so I could study them in the wild before trying again. That's why I don't think they would stay cold for very long, that and they can't digest at cold temps.

We can make observations and say, "That's what I saw", but there's a reason for everything. I can see lots of snakes in spring at 50*F under AC, and I could say they're active at 50*. I could look under the same AC at 50* here in Dec in n. MI, but I wouldn't see anything. I do it all the time. That's because the snakes are far underground and won't be coming up again until spring. So now the snakes are not active at 50*, unless you want to argue they're active three ft. underground or something.

I think I'm open minded. I believe you guys are seeing stuff in winter and want to know what you're seeing. I'm not turning away. In my scientific way I need to know some specifics though. I can't just agree all snakes are active all winter (especially in MI). Scientists need to see the evidence and be convinced. I'm sure you know that from dealing with them. Look at how hard it is for FR to believe anything I'm telling him about where I live. I now am pretty convinced that green rats and lyre snakes are active all or most of the winter and diamondbacks are pretty active. I'm also anxious to form some opinions about some other colubrids and crotes. Probably a good chance Micruroides is continuously active too. Thanks, btw, for the info about your study species. I think AZ is a lot warmer in winter than I thought at first from my few visits. There must be some hot spots snakes take advantage of to stay active when the temps are cold, or they simply ride it out for a few days.

Thanks for the good post and keep the behavior and ecology notes coming. That's my favorite thing

TC

Yes there are hot spots, the same hot spots all snakes seek, 99% of them are in something, like in hollow trees and in rock crevices(deep ones) and in the earth.

What you miss is, the above mentioned places and more, are their lifes, their real homes, and where most all important behaviors take place. The breed in the places, they nest in the places, they grow in these places and they are safe in these places. Not on the surface.

Like Phil Peaks tin piles(AC) the snakes use those, but do not live there. Which means they live somewhere else. They use the surface the least of all areas of their life. They use AC another percentage of their lifes, they use real cover most of their lives.

That you think the snakes need to appease you is odd and common, specially with old style herpetology. They were only counted if they use our space. Kinda like counting fish that occur out of the water. Yes there are fish that do regularly leave the water, but still water is their life. You difine them as they encounter your life. Yes? FR

I forgot about these guys when we were talking about pyros. I don't know about wild snakes but I can say that Micruroides is one snake that does go off feed in Sept. for me, no matter what. There are no changes in their temps, they just quit eating. I place them in a cool spot to wait until I cool the rest of the room. When I warm my room in mid-April my corals still refuse food until May, like clockwork. I currently keep three Pajarito specimens but I prevously had some Superstition snakes and both localities were exactly the same. They don't lose any weight during this interval at all.

I have read about people having triaspis becomeing ataxic at colder temps, and know several that have lost them during winter cooling. I regularily keep mine at around 45F during the winter with occasional fluctuations due to cold snaps or warm spells but have never had any problems other than occasional blocked nostrils during shed, which goes away as soon as they shed.

Very interesting, Rich. Maybe the greens' doing well for you has something to do with your location. Maybe they do better in AZ, but I just don't know on them, one of the reasons I want to study them in the wild. It seems like a contradiction, but there could be something at play we don't know about. Maybe in the East, like MI, they are more susceptible to germs or whatever? Are any of the folks you know who lost them from AZ?

The reason I looked at Micruruoides for being continuously active is that the corals in FL are. That's interesting info though that you have gotten. Does your info compare well with others?

Another snake we might take a look at because I know some of the AZ guys have tried these is the vine snake. I know they barely enter the U.S. in s. AZ and several people have mentioned them recently. I assume they are pretty active year 'round in Mex, because they are a low elevation snake from tropics/subtropics. I'm not sure if you have kept them all year, but would be interesting to know if they seem to be active all year.

Thanks for your time and all the info. Later...Terry

When you start thinking its az or wi. of fla. You pretty much have lost your handle on husbandry. Temps and conditions are temps and conditions. The problem with many seems to be, they don't know how to control them. You seem to want to do it the cheapest way and let outside temps control your cage temps. While thats fine with stuff that happens to work with that, its not fine with most "other" types of captives.

I keep and work with reptiles that mostly occur on the otherside of the equator, and I cannot rely on our temps doing anything of benefit.

If you have problems, then control your conditions.

For Rich, whats important on your cerb site, air temps or mass(ground, rock, etc) temps? You say your snakes are changing behavior, without the air temps changing. You may want to rethink that. They are responding to the surface temps changing. You may be able to relate they behavioral changes to the night time temps dropping. This triggers them to change locals to a more suitable location, only in captivity, you do not let them use their natural behavior and move to a better local. I also have a feeling you can relate the captives behavioral changes to whats happening at your study site.

Now for the greenrats. There is without question a problem with them. But its not what you think. And its common with lots of species. The average greenrat you find on Hopkins rd(an example) is a 30 inch or thereabouts, male. Its a snake without territory(why you find them all the time.) They are stressed out, full of parasites(uncontrolled) and bound to die soon.

In captivity, they are pains in the bums, picky, hard to establish and often fail, if not givin extremely good care.

If you have a strong need for a wild caught green rat. Understand they are easily found, and only take babies. This does two things. Its best for the enviornment. Most babies will not make it anyway. Which is much better then taking a full grown healthy adult that has run the obstcule course and learned how to survive year after year. And you get an individual with a fresh start.

The other option is to take strong healthy adults, which is not so good for the enviornment, consider how many babies does it take to get one adult. So when you take an healthy adult, your actually taking 49 babies. So just take a baby. hahahahahahaha.

You can also take the subordinate(sick) individuals and work very hard to cure them. This way, you are also causing less impact to that local greenrat ecology. Just advice you can do what you want, if you have a hunting lic.

This works for pyros as well, the average mid-summer pyro is a small male as well and its a lizard feeder, stressed, unhealthy poor captive. Of course there are exceptions to this, but I prefer to not go into that.

FYI, one of the events that sparked my interest in this was, a local herp vet, did exams on a bunch of wild montane snakes. He found most to be full of the nastist stuff. So I started to pay attention to which wild individuals were sick and which were healthy.

For Rich to understand this. What is of more impact on a population, someone taking one of your reliable cerbs or taking a baby away from your sites or sites like yours? Thanks again for the conversation.

For TC, please take this as a compliment, but I totally respect you for not being afraid to keep these conversations up and going. As you may be aware of, I think your a bit old fashioned in both your captive theory and your natural theory, But that is not a problem. I respect you because your not afraid to keep learning. To keep bumping up against the wall(me) I respect this, This is why I keep on exposing you to the other side. So I really do thank you and keep on keeping on. After all, its not about if what we understand is right or wrong, its the journey thats important. FR

Thanks. I was beginning to wonder if you kept human hides on your shed walls along with the joeys, hahaha

About the green rats, I don't know that much about them, but they are fascinating. I would agree..collect babies, with a license, if you have to. I also figured w/c probably had lots of parasites, most of the time. The ones I had were CB, however, from a reputable dealer in San Antone. I figured part of the problem, at least, had to do with husbandry and part sensitivity of the snakes. I do control conditions to the best of my ability. My herp room has separate electric heat, so I can make the ambient temp vary. I also use under cage heat strips which gives them a place to digest which is warmer. Almost all my snakes thrive at temps from about 72-82*F, ambient temp.

I think the green rats could be continuously active. I could see scenarios where they could survive AZ winters w/o hibernating or abstaining from eating for more than a few weeks. I can't see them being cold, like 55*F, for more than a few weeks, however. They just don't seem cold-tolerant for long periods, at least the ones I've had. I need to see a lot more snakes to observe that, I think, or maybe someone has data on that.

Why do we see so many young male greens and pyros in summer? Are the females somewhere dealing with reproduction things?

Gotta run...Terry

Hey Terry,

Been off at work for a few days. The green rat observations I shared a few posts up were not odd or rare winter season obs. It is not uncommon to find them out, cold and fed in the winter months. Can I explain it? No. Isn't it, however, purely speculative to say they can't digest at that temp even if it goes against what we all know about warming up to get things done physiologically??? Maybe they can the job done differently under different conditions.

I believe a lot of what I see in captivity is important. You can't change a wild snake by putting it in a box. It will do what we let it do by the conditions we provide for it. I think I have done some pretty neat things to allow wide open freedom of choice in some of my set ups. Observing some captive behaviors has opened many doors for me in my field studies. You know the one thing I really do believe I have learned: My best captive set-up sucks the big mango compared to what a snake can do in nature.

I applaud your skepticism. That is truly what makes good science. Gotta run for now.

Hugh, I finally got some time off too.

Isn't it, however, purely speculative to say they can't digest at that temp even if it goes against what we all know about warming up to get things done physiologically??? Maybe they can the job done differently under different conditions.
>>

As a scientist I gotta believe there's always other possibilities and there's always things we don't know, answers we don't have ;0

You know the one thing I really do believe I have learned: My best captive set-up sucks the big mango compared to what a snake can do in nature.
>>

Hahaha..I agree. And I agree you can learn a lot from captive snakes too.

>>I applaud your skepticism. That is truly what makes good science. Gotta run for now.

Thanks and I don't always do good science (amateur), but I try. You guys are patient for bearing with me while I adjust my thinking and test your hypotheses with what I know.

TC

You said to Test our "hypotheses" Hmmmmmmmm thats wrong, to test our observations is more like it. Better yet, to repeat our observations.

What we are doing is relating observations, then you do the hypothizing. (hmmmm is that a word?) Anyway, we are not assuming or making up or theorizing, we are relating observations, in my case, on a week by week basis.

Please try to understand the difference. You are doing the theorizing, your trying to convert our imformation into something of sense or use for you. Remember, we are only relating real life observations. That you think they are theory or collection of thoughts(a hypothosis) is wrong and will not help you. They are observations and collections of observations. Thanks FR

Well, it was actually my captive Coral snakes that were changing behavior with no other stimulus. Captive cerbs will just continue feeding through the winter for me if I keep their temps constant. The coral snakes are definately one of my future projects. As Frank said below, just because a snake doesn't feed during the winter does not mean activity ceases. They are actually a tropical form at the fringes of the tropics.For all we know Az. corals may be breeding all winter as do many tropical forms. And it is well known that many species cease feeding when breeding time comes.

As for the green rats you brought up a great point Frank that I didn't even think about last night in my tired state. I have always known about the sucseptibility of triaspis to parasites and am constantly preaching about it also although most don't listen as they don't want to fork out money for a vets' exam. I imediately took (note past tense) my triaspis to my vet for fecal exams and treatment. Most are heavily parasitized with Trichomonas. Even after treatment I kept all contact/disturbance minimal for as long as it took until the snake showed signs of adapting (and this is actually my policy for all wild caught) THe reason I mentioned past tense is that I will no longer remove triaspis from the wild as there is just absolutely no need. I still have two original wild caught from over twenty years ago. No telling how old they actually are. They are still producing offspring and I also have some of their offspring. My cousin and friends and I just give each other unrelated CB babies as needed. Another thing about triaspis. My big old female is missing the tips of her tongue. This was due to a bacterial infection of the tongue and epiglottis. Jim Jarcow told us that these snakes are particularily prone to this and that their water bowls must be kept absolutely immaculate. I have always been rather anal about cage cleanliness but I now regularily alternate and bleach my triaspis dishes every couple of days.

I agree with Frank 100% and anyone who follows the AHA forums has probably seen me preach this a jillion times over the years. TAKE BABIES, NOT ADULTS! Understandable, this is not always possible if one comes from out of state and don't have the time to be picky, you have to take what you can get. But if it smoething that is from your home range please take the time to be picky. As Frank said babies adapt much better and are not missed from the population as they are probably destined to die anyway. Leave the breeding adults out there. The great majority of my native snakes have been with me well over twenty years or are the descendants of snakes I collected back in the 1970's and 1980's. Nuff preachin'

Also Terry, you are correct in guessing that Oxybelis is active and feeding all year.

Rich

Holy mackerel Frank... Wasn't that a nice thing you said to Terry??? Are you OK??? HAHAHAHAHAHAHA Need a paramedic?HAHAHAHAHA

This has been a great thread. Should we move it up???

Gotta go. I am off to give a talk at AZ G&F on the beasts we all love so much.

I get why you think like you do, you narrow down the difinitions to fit your requirements. Thats very handy, I imagine. So they are dormant when they quit feeding, So, with that in mind, are they hibernating when heavily gravid and have stopped feeding? Are the hibernating when in Shed? Hmmmmmmmm Are they hibernating when there is no food availible. You know, when you decide not to feed them(when hungry)?

To understand life, feeding is to keep the machine running in order to proceed with lifes events, its not life. Key life events are being created(hatched or born) growing up, maturing to adulthood, recruiting, etc.(also many subcatagories within those), I also include all sorts of social behavior(many biologists don't). Feeding is to support life, not life itself, a part of life, if you will.

The key to understanding reptiles and their lives, they increase their metabolism to feed, then drop it to go on with the rest of their lifes. They do this with several tasks.

So yes, I do see how your so confused. But I will wait until you grab the next straw in order for you to not change the way you think. This is fun U know, and no offense intended, as how you procieve snakes has no bearing on your life or how you keep them. Or how you feed for that matter. It just is not very accurate. And guess what, we/I aren't all that accurate either. hahahahahahahahaha Just maybe a little more, because we actually have been successful at looking and not blocking out all of it to fit what we "want" to think.

One last thought, Free ranging snakes are always right, captive information should be arranged to fit wild snakes, not the other way around. Its the captives that are all screwballed up, and forced to do what we "think" they should be doing. Wild ones have no such rules. That many here think you should rearrange wild snakes to fit what you think captives do is, well totally wrong. Always was, always well be. hahahahahahahahaha, FR

Hi Rich,
I have a question for you, do denning snakes represent the population?, or do they represent the recruiting part of the population? Thanks FR

Hey Frank,

I think that probably depends on the species, elevation and locality. Up here with my cerb groups at 7000 ft., denning definately represents the population. But I wouldn't hold that as an absolute, even with other populations within the same species at lower elevations or more southerly latitudes. At the other extreme for cerbs, such as the lower Catalina foothills it may very well represent recruitment, I really don't know. Although I haven't really had the opportunity to observe any of the Mexican montane crotes for any length of time, I would gather that denning (or winter aggregation so to speak) represents recruitment for those species (please correct me here, inquiring minds want to know!)

Rich

Hi Rich, What I am getting at is, with all the dens or congregations I have viewed in my life(long and full of snake stuff) I have seen them from coast to coast, north to south, high elevation to low, with many species. I have noticed a lack of juviniles in dens or congregations. Or even young adults. That is, they are clearly biased in favor of older adults.

Do not take this as, one way or another. I have seen a few indivudual juviniles in dens, but very few.

As I mentioned in a previous post, you tend to see large adults in congregations. Which viewing this makes them the dominate part of the population, but at other times of the year, away from dens or congregations, large adults are no longer the dominate, but instead the minority or in fact rare. With juviniles and yearlings becoming the highest percentage of individuals found.

The question is, why did they, the juvis and yearlings, not appear in the dens?

On many rattlesnake dens, you tend to see very very old adults, look are the rattle structure of your pics(cerbs). With diamondbacks, they do the same, but I do find dens or congregations of different age groups of adults. That is, old timers in one den, middleaged in another, etc. but still no babies or yearlings(by all logic, these two groups should be the most numerous)

With the montanes, they do not den or group in large numbers, but instead mostly in pairs. With a few pairs in a area. With these groups of pairs scattered about in the same type of places your dens are in. Thanks again for your trouble. FR

So if some dens contain older animals and some younger how long have you watched these dens? Do the older animals dominate a den until a cetain number die and then they are replaced by younger ones? Could what we have thought of as the "active season" actually be the "dispersal season"? A time when young or weak scattered individuals activly seek a more permanant den?
And on a larger timeline are there lean years when large numbers die off and good years when large numbers of young are produced which then seek out the vacancies? Just rambling.

unfortunately I will have to keep this shorter. I typed a very lengthy response last night and when I submitted it I was told there was a server error and to try again later. And my whole post was lost! VERY frustrating when one is not very computer saavy and slow as molassus when it comes to typing!

Anyway, for most crote forms my observations have been teh same as yours, I usually see snakes of the same ages denning together and no babies. I remember being amazed last spring when I actually saw a baby from the previous Fall at one of my abysuss dens.

For some reason the cerbs are different. One commonly sees babies, yearlings and two year olds at the dens with the adult snakes. I admit I was decieved at first and didn't think many babies were around or surviving, but it didn't take me long to figure out that babies were coming out for daily basking way before the adults. The babies will come out early in the morn with ambient temps in the forties and the rocks are still actually colder than the air. But their little bodies heat up very quickly and they usually have gone back in or at least taken partial shelter from the sun by the time the adults emerge for their daily sunbathing. Our recapture(re-observation is probably a more appropraite word as I just try to leave them alone) rate for babies at the dens now far exceeds that of the adults. Many of the crote dens I have observed seem to be for the sake of convenience only or consist of mated pairs, much like you have observed. BUt these cerbs seem to be just one BIG happy family.

Rich

Now lets relate that to elevation. At a consistant high elevation, like where your at, the snake are restricted to where they can survive.

Here where I live, those restrictions are not present. They can survive winter even on the shady sides of hills.

Both places the adults gather or stay together for breeding convience(bonded pairs, non bonded pairs, or just causal meetings) In your area, survival my include the majority of the colony attending these areas in winter. In our area, they can surely stay in all areas of their ranges.

What I see is a certain percentage of the population of dens staying in the immediate area, year around. And a certain percentage leaving to what I call the foraging range, then returning in the late fall. Those percentages are based on availible food. If foods availible, they stay put, if it becomes scarce, they move as little as possible to secure it.

An oddity for me is, I have recently(within the last ten years) found a diamondback den that gathers in the spring. That is, they do not winter there, they only gather to mate and as soon as thats done, they are gone.

This is great fun Rich, thanks for sharing. You know theres not many who are boneheaded enough to keep at this. hahahahahahahaha FR

and following this conversation very closely. hahaha

Don't forget body mass on the babies Frankie. Like you said they can gain and lose much quicker than a snake with a larger body mass.

For Terry. I thought today would be a good day to find a coral crawling in a creek right close to mi casa, no luck there but this guy was crossing my trail on the way back to the truck.

Forky

but even better habitat. Nice crop of grass there

Last August I was in AZ with a couple buds from Mi and FL. One evening, think it was the 4th, a big monsoon storm blew in and scared us poor northerners, so we decided to stay home until it blew over. As soon as the rain, wind, and lightening passed we decided to head down along the Santa Cruz River to see if anything was coming out. It was just getting dark. Here's what we saw as soon as we got on the road...


Unfortunately, the local residents whacked them before we got there. I believe these snakes were out in the midst of that big storm. Go figure?

TC

There are only a certain number of places that would provide for what these high altitude populations need to get through the winter. I have eight cerb dens in the immediate Flagstaff area. I used to wonder why the respective denning populations chose that particular spot for their den site. There would be a thousand other sites that looked just the same close at hand yet they stayed true to thes particular places. I even walked around with a point and shoot thermometer and tested various places but could find no significant difference between where den entrances were locate and other places that looked just as good. The only think I could see was a particular color of lichen at all entrances. Then I decided to see what these guys were up to at night. As I passed the den entrances I was absolutely shocked to feel how much heat was radiating from the sites. I could feel the heat from a hundred feet away! And during the summer the entrances are always protected from the sun by Gambel Oak for the greater part of the day (leaves fall in winter letting the sun hit the dens direct). The chance structure of each den site turned them into a solar collectors. While no difference was detectable in the daytime, it was very obvious at night once the ambient temps had gone down.

Yes, I have really been enjoying this thread. Lot's of good mental stimulation. I gotta say you have always opened new doors for me when it comes to reptile behaviour. I remember back in the nineties when I was having no luck in getting my molossus to breed. I couldn't understand why they weren't when I was having so much success with colubrids. It was your interview in vivarium that set me on a whole new path of thinking as far as reptile behaviour. Although the interview mostly pertained to Varanids I applied the thinking to my molossus and rattlesnakes in general and BINGO!, I had babies the next season. And I am still learning a lot in this thread. Thanks for making us think!

Rich

Hey, Frank. That was a cool post, and I enjoyed your pics. I'm glad the snakes are still moving along with other herps down there in the Old Pueblo. I'm glad because I want to be able to see them too once I move down there. There's no doubt in my mind that you have way more favorable temps than we do in Michigan. I'm sure the herps stay active way longer down there. I also believe you, and Rich, and Hugh see snakes in winter (Dec, Jan, Feb). I think you probably see them in their hibernaculums, or in hot spots, like in cracks, etc. Also, there's probably some opportunistic snakes, like diamondbacks, that bask on days that are sunny and real warm, like 80*F, or so. I'm not saying that all snakes brumate/hibernate and go w/o eating for three months or more. I'm just saying there are snakes that do that in many areas of our country and the world, and there are some that are relatively inactive, near the surface, even in AZ. I say that because I've seen them in a torpid state under rocks, etc.

You said I'm assuming snakes are hibernating here in Michigan. I don't think so. I did take a temp, btw, a couple days ago. It got up to about 50* in the afternoon and dropped into the thirties around dark. I took the soil temp about six inches underground and it was 48*F. I believe it gets warmer until hitting about 55*F about 2-3ft down. I believe that because someone researched it and published the info and I read it years ago. Now the snakes could be at the 55* level underground, but they wouldn't be eating at those temps because they can't digest at those temps. The temperatures will keep getting cooler until about the beginning of December here when the ground will start to freeze. The frost will keep moving lower underground driving the snakes down and into cooler temps (55* or less) as winter goes on.

How do I know snakes are hibernating close to 32*? because I've seen them in hibernaculum in water where there is frozen ground all around. Also, snakes have been found hibernating underground just below the frost line. And I've seen snakes flushed out of burrows in the ground that have been frozen because they didn't get below the frost line. There have been many reports of snakes being able to survive almost freezing temps in their hibernaculums.

I don't doubt the things you guys see in AZ in the winter. I can't wait to make observations myself. But I don't think you should say all snakes are active in winter because of what you are seeing. In captivity some keepers are brumating their snakes because they think it is what's best for their snakes. With the case of the Russian ratsnakes, I know folks who have forced their snakes to remain active year 'round, but I don't think that is what's best for the snake. They are adapted to about half a year active and half a year resting. To keep them active all year is very demanding on them and I don't think they live as long or prosper as much.

Another example is the Eastern milksnake. I've worked with these for many, many years. You normally don't see milks on the surface from September to May. I believe they hibernate at cold temps as do all the other snakes in n. MI. They are very cold tolerant in captivity and w/c adults are very difficult to keep because they refuse to eat most of the time after September. Juveniles can be kept going longer, however. I believe juvies don't always have the same strong instincts as adults. Captive raised milks can be kept active much longer than their wild counterparts, but I would still hibernate them for at least three or four months even if you could keep them active.

I like your point about the snakes being inactive at other times besides winter and lowering their metabolism. I'd like to call this brumating too, but I'm not sure it would go over very well with the captivity crowd. In some areas of the country I'm sure it's very similar to winter hibernating/brumating. But in MI, summers are very easy and winters are very hard to survive.

I agree that all snakes are trying to do the same thing, survive, reproduce, etc, and they do it differently due to the varying conditions. Snakes adapt to the extremes in nature, but not always in the same way. For instance, I can cool a leopard ratsnake to 45* for 4 or 5 months with no ill affects. If I were to do that with a radiated ratsnake, or even a green ratsnake, triaspis, it would probably kill them. Another example, a western coachwhip, can probably remain active above ground at temps in the 90's for quite some time, whereas, it would probably kill some other snakes in a short amt. of time. I believe captive snakes gradually acclimate to the conditions us keepers force them to live under. My snakes are able to do pretty well under cooler conditions than most other keepers' snakes because they are used to it.

Frank, I like the idea that snakes in AZ stay active all year and underground temps stay around 80*F at a certain level. I think we should document that and publish the information. Can't wait to be in AZ year 'round. At this time I've only herped there in Dec, Mar, July, and August. Looking forward to making some new finds this winter.

Later...Terry

To make your statements accurate, you need to take temps of where the snakes are in the winter, not in the ground at any random spot. As I mentioned, your assumming they are at a certain temps, without verifying it.

In our case, we do take their temps, the ground temps, the air temps, etc. So we do not have to assume anything. good luck, FR

Thanks, FR. I'll try to be more astute. Although most of the snakes on my property spend the winter all over in rodent burrow, etc, there are some places where they are more attracted to. I'll concentrate there. I also know the area the massasaugas hibernate in. They do move into a favorable area in winter and I'll check that out this winter too. I've found various colubrids in all kinds of spots in AZ in winter. I guess they don't all stay active (in the sense of feeding) is that it?

Find the snakes and check temps and see what they are doing all winter, or most of the winter. Then consider that. We/I would love to read your actual data.

Until then you should not keep trying to make conclusions without the data to make it with. (Which by the way is the whole stinking point of this thread)(making conclusions without supporting information)

You see, your making conclusions with lack of information, the snakes disappear in winter. That is not data, that is lack of data, where are the snakes and what are they doing. This is what you need to see, not assume. Again, find them and see what they are doing, not one or two, a cross section of them. Get the picture. Use real information, not what you were told or read. FR

np

My love of pyros came from accidently finding them in the wild while searching for caves or hiking to known caves in the Huachucas and Santa Ritas. I have been exploring caves for 27 years and have a pretty good idea of what underground temps are like at different elevations within pyro habitat.
At the lower range of pyro habitat (4000-5000ft) cave temps year round are in the upper 60's to about 70 degrees (some areas with geothermal activity such as Agua Caliente may be higher). In more prime pyro habitat (6000-8000 ft) underground temps are often in the low 60's, even upper 50's. The general rule is that underground temps reflect the yearly temperature average of an area.
While pyros may be surface active in temps lower than we think ( I have seen them in the Huachucas at around 55 degrees in November), I don't think that they are really feeding much. I don't think that they can find underground temps that are very condusive to digestion. I may be going against recent thinking on this forum, but I definitely feel that as temps go down, days shorten, prey goes undergound for the winter, pyros lower their metabolism and go underground themselves and stay relativitely inactive. Maybe when a warm day comes along they will come out to bask.
While I have found many species of snakes within the entrances of Arizona caves I have never seen a pyro in a cave. I have seen large numbers of rattlesnakes using caves as winter dens and I do not believe that they are surface active from late November to late February except maybe on exceptionally warm days.

Wow!! That's a really cool photo.

Thanks for the post and the info on caves and all. Very interesting. I believe that pyros hibernate too, although I'm sure some can be seen in cracks from time to time on warm days in winter. I'm not sure if anyone has ever seen one with food in its belly in the Dec-Feb time frame.

I like pyros too and plan to study them once I get to AZ permanently

TC

Onyx cave, cave creek, 6500ft, 72F year around. Cave of the bells, to the northeast of Onyx, 74F year around, both in prime pyro habitat.

FYI, I was the foreman on the Stephen Cogdon earth sciences building(the cave) at the ASDM. In doing so, I was in those caves many many many many many many times, hahahahahahahaha.

I saw a greenrat and diamondback at the mouth of agua Caliente cave. I also found a munnified snake down in that cave.

All to hot for decent hibernation(energy conservation) hey? FR

Hey Frank, tell us about the momma longnose and her daughter from the earlier post!
Todd Hughes

Oh yeah, only saw one snake this week, a rough green in a tree of course, and many legless lizards a few rosebellies, and a few Texas spotted whiptails, and one Ridley's sea turtle. Not real fair I guess, since the temps are still in the 70-80's range. Gotta love Texas!
Todd Hughes

I too wanted to hear about the mamma longnose. That is a very intersting and beautuful pattern on the snake you posted! Thanks...

Rich

I have been watching an adult in the exact spot this baby was found, I have been watching her for about 5 years. I see her a few times a year when she does the oddest behavior. For some reason, two, three times a year, she goes nuts and crawls all over this one section of our driveway. I mean, back and forth, and forth and back, for several hours. She does this in the late afternoon(not at night)

I can see her doing this from the living room window. I do not touch her(screws them up). Anyway heres a poor pic of her,

She has a pattern very similar to the baby one, only color is reversed. Which changes as they mature. Heres the small one again to compare.

They are similar in that both have the hollow centers on both sides of the black bands and both are neither Claris(banded) or Leconte(normal) phase.

FYI, in the 17 or so years I have lived here, longnose are far and away the most commonly encountered species of snake. Except this year, that baby has been the only one seen. And its a wet year????????? odd. FR

FR, I respect your knowledge, but I have been in Onyx, Cave of the Bells, Agua Caliente, etc. many many many many many many many more times than you. Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha!. I know caves like you know monitors. I have done volunteer work in SE AZ Caves for the Forest Service, University of AZ, Ft. Huachuca and AZ State Parks including temperature monitoring. I'm a 27 year member of the National Speleological Society. The caves you mentioned are all about 4 degrees cooler than you think, but you're close. They are all also in the lower end of pyro habitat. Agua Caliente is in the desert, basically out of pyro habitat. I have seen many snakes in the entrace areas of each of these caves. My point is that underground temps do not get up to the 80 degree range that people may assume you can get to by going far underground. There have been a few recent comments by folks that assume that snakes can essentially find summerlike temps by going underground, simply not true. BTW saw a green rat and a coral snake recently in the entrance of one of the above mentioned caves.
No one is questioning your theory here, just saying that snakes definitely do lower their metabolism during the colder months of the year and go off food during those times. You have said yourself that they do this.

Spent all this weekend in caves as usual, saw a blacktail in the entrance to one. That was about it.

Cheers, Greg

Here's a pyro from over 8000 ft in the Huachucas where the caves are at best in the upper 50's to low 60's

So, mid sixties to mid-seventies. still plenty warm.

In this case, the variation is not enough to change the meaning of the statements. As in, so what, the points the same. Yes? FR

Yup, I agree with you FR! Snakes thermoregulate by going underground in winter and can find temps where they can possibly search out mates, copulate, etc.. activity by your definition.

If feeding, or being on the surface is someone's sole definition of activity, then I think that by that defintion montane snakes are mostly inactive in the winter months. Always with the occasional exception.

The Santa Ritas don't really have any high altitude caves, but the Huachucas have plenty. Underground temps in the Hamburg Mine area are maybe mid 50's to at the most low 60's. Not as hospitable as what you see around lower Gardner and Cave Canyons in the Santa Ritas.

Greg

Found this pyro about 200 ft from a Willardi at about 6600ft in the Ritas (FR might be able to guess the locale, but I'm sure he'll keep it to himself!)

your missing the point, its not about caves, its about underground mass temps. A cave is only a tool to demostrate some of these temps.

Now how you missed the whole deal. The mass temps are based on angle and duration of sun exposure coupled with material, rock, wood, earth, moisture content, and to some degree air temps. etc. Not about caves.

About winter feeding, I do not think that has anything to do with hibernating or not. I think the snakes are envolved in other activities, and feeding is of no importance. These activities are social reproductive behaviors, to gather and interact. You know, kind of like a little social mixer. To see who gets whom, etc.

As we have heard, there are a few that feed in the winter, but i believe these are individuals of not the best health and condition, and need to feed, to survive. Again, the feeding part is not their life. Recruiting and behaviors leading to recruitment, are their lifes. FR

Never said it was all about caves Frank. Very few snakes as a percentage of the overall population use them. Like you said, they are a just a good tool to help partly understand what's going on temperature and humidity wise underground. Like you said, there are lots of other factors.

By dwelling on caves, your experience with caves, by correcting me by a few degrees and not the intent of the analogy, you are indeed dwelling on the caves.

The reality is, the caves are where they are by geology(limestone formations) not by temperature. The snakes use geology, by temperature, not necessarily rock type. formation type is important, but only if its offers suitable temps.

So yes, it may not been your intention to dwell on caves but you did. Also I never said snake use caves as a wintering or otherwise tool. They seem to occur in them accidently. That is, very rarely as in any unsuitable habitat. I simply used caves as a tool for some to understand temps in the earth. thanks FR