Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I'm curious as to how so many people can invest sucessfully in the BP market. I would think there has to be a market for such expensive snakes. The only people that would be willing to pay such enormous prices for a snake would be an investor that plans on breeding them and selling them for profit. And the more breeders that buy them, the more the supply and lower the price. Doesn't there have to be a demand other than breeders to be sucessful in the long run? Your everyday hobbyist isn't going to be willing to pay the big bucks for a snake like a pastel that unless someone points out the diffence, they just think it's a normal which they can buy CB for 60 bucks. Personally, the only ones different enough to be desirable to me, of course this is just my opinion, is the albinos, and their price is really modest nowadays compared to some of the newer morfs. Now, I am a little different than most, I guess, I don't think many of the designer snakes, like tangarine hondos, etc, look anywhere as good as any of the normal ones, so I'm a little biased. I know a couple people personally that have changed occupations and invested heavily in the BP craze, and I really do hope it works out for them, but I don't understand how it can without a demand from the average hobbyist and not just other investing breeders. Please don't take this wrong, I'm just wanting someone to help me understand.
Thanks,
Kirk
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1.1 Jungle Carpet Python
1.1 Ball Python
1.1 Corn Snake
0.1 Gray band Kingsnake
0.1 Desert Kingsnake
0.1 Pueblan Milksnake
1.0 Bullsnake
1.0 Rhodesian Ridgeback (Hondo)
0.1 Spouse (WC)
0.0.8 hatchling ball pythons

Ah, but you see, the demand is huge... Everyone thinks there is money to be made, and there are new breeders everywhere buying up morphs and making an investment. As long as people continue to think they can make money, the market will stay strong. It doesn't matter if people are actually making money or not, as long as they THINK they will if they buy that new morph.

There aren't many hobbies where there is even a CHANCE of making back your investment, let alone making a profit...

I don't know about other morphs but I want a normal... I mean I constantly check the classifieds and Its constantly flooded with other morphs. I didnt think it would be hard to find normals... Or atleast normals with pics.

Just kick back and join the race to produce something new you can put your name on....

The ball python is the favorite in america when it comes to pet pythons. The demand is huge, and if you goto the right pet stores you can pick up a $2k albino, pastels....

b/c there are just as many people getting in as there are getting out.

this is not a get rich quick scheme. it does require a lot of work and a lot people don't realize that getting into the game
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billy jean king
BugBusters

If you love what you doing, that goes a long way. To be able to make a living doing what you love, well, it doesn't get any better than that.
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1.1 Jungle Carpet Python
1.1 Ball Python
1.1 Corn Snake
0.1 Gray band Kingsnake
0.1 Desert Kingsnake
0.1 Pueblan Milksnake
1.0 Bullsnake
1.0 Rhodesian Ridgeback (Hondo)
0.1 Spouse (WC)
0.0.8 hatchling ball pythons

... there are very few people actually making a living at breeding balls. If you're lucky you can make enough to break even - maybe make a nice respectable profit - buy some more animals - and do the same the next year.
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Tosha

"Nihil facimus sed id bene facimus"

7.33.0 Ball Python (Harry and Fluffy and gang)
1.0.0 Angolan Python (Anakin Skywalker)
0.0.1 Green Tree Python (Verdi - yeah I know but my kids love the book)
0.2.0 Feline (Pippen and Pandora)
0.0.1 Desert Tortoise (Pope John Paul aka JP )
2.2.1 Fish (1,2,3,4)
0.0.2 frogs rescued from pool skimmer

Yeah, and if you want to make it into a business, expect it to take at least 10-15 years and, just like any other business, you will lose money for the first few years.
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1.1 Balls (1.0 het clown 0.1 normal)
1.1 Kittys and
0.1 WC Human
"I need evaluation...and dinner; and by dinner I don't meen gnome heads!"

Great question - I've been thinking abou this a lot lately as I see $35,000 balls for sale and any little aberration (yellow belly comes to mind) is suddenly a hot new morph for $8,000 ea. Lets not forget - its still a Ball Python its JUST a different color. Thats it, same nice personality, same size, etc. just a different color!!!! Its sorta become like collecting baseball cards or Beanie Babies its been hyped up that you HAVE to have one of each to complete your collection!

Whats happening with Balls has happened with Corn Snakes, Pot Belly Pigs, Emus, Hedgehogs, Ostriches, Albino Burmese, etc. etc. I have magazines from the 80's where Emus sold for $50,000 per pair - current price? Free to $200 per pair.....Albino Burmese (the grand daddy of the mutation craze) were like $10,000 , now $125 wholesale.........

The prices are high because the few people that got in early are breeders selling "breeding stock" to other hopeful breeders.

There will reach a saturation point eventually as there are only a finite group of people that want to breed Ball python Morphs and supply will exceed demand. Especially on the more indistinct morphs that are not so eye catching to the average consumer. I doubt any of the morphs will become popular as "pets" normal balls will always fill that niche, UNLESS the morphs drop in price to be close to the normal price which in turn will cause a lot of hopeful breeders to say its not worth the effort to produce them. AND I think there are going to be a lot of people that lose their shirts, or worse, because they have invested so much cash or gotten deep in debt to buy the hot new morph.

The one thing going for the Ball Python market is the low reproductive rate compared to some other "fad" animals.But from what I have seen lately with the demand for imported adult females, I have a feeling that some breeders have hoarded literally hundreds if not thousands of reproducing (or soon to be) females on hand and once those start producing the market will be flooded with available animals especially spiders and other dominant mutations. Also you'll notice very few females het for anything are being sold, so once all the het females that have been held back over the last few years start to reproduce there could be literally thousands of clutches of morphs for sale yearly.

These are my personal opinions and observations. Your opinion may vary. - Dumergirl

Thanks for your response, you put to words what I was thinking much better than I could have.
As a typical hobbyist, the only one I find really worth paying more money for is the albino, and I've been waiting for 12 yrs or so for them to become reasonable. I remember when they were going for 10K. Now you can get one for about 2K. Which is still outrageous to me. I'm not interested in the investment value, I just like the way they look. I might be willing to justify paying 200 to 400 at the most for one. I seriously doubt I'll ever be able to buy one.
I am concerned about the numbers of BP's that are being imported, I believe that before long the only ones available will be CB, if we continue to over harvest them, they won't exist in the wild anymore. Considering the problems associated with the WC BP's as pets, it's probably turning a lot of first time snake buyers off, when they get sick, parasite infested animals that won't eat.
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1.1 Jungle Carpet Python
1.1 Ball Python
1.1 Corn Snake
0.1 Gray band Kingsnake
0.1 Desert Kingsnake
0.1 Pueblan Milksnake
1.0 Bullsnake
1.0 Rhodesian Ridgeback (Hondo)
0.1 Spouse (WC)
0.0.8 hatchling ball pythons

you are right in some aspects. Breeders are holding back females for the future not to flood the market but because you have to. Each year every morph except the very rare drop in price, it's the nature of economics. So to counter-act this drop you have to produce a few more. You are also right about the low reproductive rate of ball pythons, it's very very low compared to any other pet snake. And now let's look at breeders holding back their females. It takes on average for a good feeding ball female 2.5 yrs to breed. You breed 20 of these 1500-2000 gm young females. 15 (which is a high #) take and produce fertile clutches. You get 4-6 eggs from each clutch. based on the laws of genetics that het female will only produce 2-3 of the morph you are trying to get. So that breeder that held back females only produces 30 of the morph he/she was trying to get, that's hardly flooding the market. Yes I know there are breeders with alot more hold back females than 15 but even at 100 het breeding females you are not gonna flood the market. To say there aren't many people out there willing to spend 1-3k on an animal is crazy. Go to a pet store in any mall across the nation and look at the prices on some of these pure-bred dogs. They only look different from your shelter mut but people in this country are willing to pay for top of the line looks, WE ARE OBSESSED WITH LOOKS. Do I think it's a gamble to mortgage your house and sink 100k into any investment, heck yeah. But with 3-4 decent years that money is made back then it's mostly profit. I wish people would drop this subject and go with it, you aren't going to get anyone to lower their price by trying to scare them so you can get that pied for 2k or that lesser for 5k, it's not going to happen any time soon. my .02 Josh Hutto..........JKReptiles
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2.3 het pied (RDR, alan bosch x 2, BHB x 2)
1.1 het albino (ben siegel, gulf coast)
1.2 het citrus ghost(gulf coast line)
1.0 citrus ghost (gulf coast line)
0.1 graz pastel female
1.6 05 normal bp's
0.6 04 normal bp's
2.5 adult normal bp's (some need breeding to see if norm)
4 various corns
0.1 brazilian rainbow boa (alan bosch)
1.0 american pit bull terrior
1.1 taco dogs (ankle biters)
1.0 grey cat
1.1 bearded dragons

a BAD dog is MADE not bred, support the American Pit Bull Terrior as the greatest breed of dogs on Earth!!!!!

>I wish people would drop this subject and go with it, you aren't going to get anyone to lower their price by trying to scare them so you can get that pied for 2k or that lesser for 5k, it's not going to happen any time soon.<

Sorry, I didn't realize it was a tired subject. I'm not sure what you mean by "go with it." I'm merely trying to understand this phenomenon. I've never cared for the pieds and I'm not particularly impressed with the other morphs, so I'm really not trying to scare anyone into lowering their prices. I would like to have a albino, but I've waited for 12 years for the price to come down, I suppose I can wait for another 12 years, after that I'll have to give up because the snake would outlive me at that point, lol. I do wish you good luck though, anytime someone can make a living doing what they love, I think that's great. You could cut me a great deal on a albino, and I wouldn't tell anyone. grin
Take care,
Kirk
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1.1 Jungle Carpet Python
1.1 Ball Python
1.1 Corn Snake
0.1 Gray band Kingsnake
0.1 Desert Kingsnake
0.1 Pueblan Milksnake
1.0 Bullsnake
1.0 Rhodesian Ridgeback (Hondo)
0.1 Spouse (WC)
0.0.8 hatchling ball pythons

Hey man

There are some nice het for albino's in the classifieds, just do it.

Buy the het babies, wait 3 years, the'll probably cost you around 300 for a pair, and breed your own.

It will save you 12 years of stress and waiting lol.

good luck

steve

Steve,
Actually, that's not a bad idea (buying two Hets for albino). I guess the problem is I'd hate to buy to normal looking snakes, for that much dough, that are supposed to be Het for albino, wait 3 years for them to breed and have a clutch of normals emerge. Any ideas on sorting thru the classifieds to find a reputable dealer of 100% het for albinism?
Kirk

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1.1 Jungle Carpet Python
1.1 Ball Python
1.1 Corn Snake
0.1 Gray band Kingsnake
0.1 Desert Kingsnake
0.1 Pueblan Milksnake
1.0 Bullsnake
1.0 Rhodesian Ridgeback (Hondo)
0.1 Spouse (WC)
0.0.8 hatchling ball pythons

well I did notice that the females were a little or alot more than the males, you have to just trust people sometimes, I would just buy from the well known breeders, or from someone you know or someone that can be vouched for by someone respectable.

get papers from whoever you buy from and then you have something to go back on, and also yes you might not get an albino if one or two eggs don't make it.

just enjoy the animals anyway, thats what I do. they are great whatever colour they are.

steve

Thanks for the gentle nudge. I know a guy here in town that is pretty big into BP's and I emailed him and he's going to give me a pretty decent deal on a pair of hets. I really never thought of doing that before. So keep your fingers crossed, in about 3 years, I'll finally have that albino.
Kirk
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1.1 Jungle Carpet Python
1.1 Ball Python
1.1 Corn Snake
0.1 Gray band Kingsnake
0.1 Desert Kingsnake
0.1 Pueblan Milksnake
1.0 Bullsnake
1.0 Rhodesian Ridgeback (Hondo)
0.1 Spouse (WC)
0.0.8 hatchling ball pythons

Hey thats good news, but now you have to pay me the extra 3,500 dollars for saving you 12 years lol.

I don't have loads of cash either to spend, so I do things the harder way but it eventually works out. The main thing is that you should enjoy the animals.

good luck

steve

Buy a het female now - you can probably find one for as low as $500-$600 - in two years right before she is ready to breed - pick up a het male - $100 - you get an albino in 3 years. You can sell off the mom, dad and babies - have your albino and turn a tidy profit.

Alternatively - stick $20 a week in a savings account - you'll have your albino in less than two years. Our son's been wanting an albino for years - we told him if he saved up half we'd come up with the other half - it took him about 16 months - he was 8 - it's not that hard. Saving up for a lesser platty - now thats hard! LOL
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Tosha

"Nihil facimus sed id bene facimus"

7.33.0 Ball Python (Harry and Fluffy and gang)
1.0.0 Angolan Python (Anakin Skywalker)
0.0.1 Green Tree Python (Verdi - yeah I know but my kids love the book)
0.2.0 Feline (Pippen and Pandora)
0.0.1 Desert Tortoise (Pope John Paul aka JP )
2.2.1 Fish (1,2,3,4)
0.0.2 frogs rescued from pool skimmer

"I wish people would drop the subject and go with it..."

This is a forum...if it tires you, don't read! If people want to talk about it, stress over it, get informed about it, or any other "its" that might be out there...let them have at "it". I personally don't mind hearing people's speculations at all. Now when I do tire of reading about the "future?" and all, I'll just not read the threads titled "BP market future" and the like. No hostility here, but come on... let people talk about whatever they want to here. If others don't want to, there will be no replies, and the subject will die!

Now that being said, I did like your analysis. Good thoughts...haven't heard it broken down with those odds before. Good thinking
Jeremy
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Isn't it cooler that serpent's don't walk anymore?
(Genesis 3:14)

I dont know how many people are out there who breed just for fun, but im one of those. Im not looking to make any money, i dont even want to sell anything, i am in school chasing down a zoology degree or animal biology, and i know i may never make a lot of money, my wife is planning on being a teacher, so we may have to cut some corners down the line, but i will always be working with and around the animals that i love.
That is what IT is all about
Kirby