Reptile & Amphibian Forums

You asked if I cycled my snakes in the dark. It was only yesterday but it is way down below.

For the last few years I was in Florida and I was not setup for brumation. I had no way to get my animals cold enough for any length of time. Instead I just stopped feeding and turned off the lights and heat in January. After a couple of seasons I got fed up with having my snakes hatch the day before the shows that I payed for in advance or even worse the day after.

So I looked up online the sunrise/sunset times for my area and I set my timers to those times. I started in mid summer and after about 2 months I started doubling my changes every week. I advanced the times about a month ahead of the actual outside times. I just kept it up all winter and in spring I got eggs a month earlier than the previous year. That summer I did the same again and the following spring I was two months ahead.

At the time I was doing more corns than anything and it only took two seasons with the public to kill my interest. I had babies for two months and they where two months bigger than anyone at the shows but all anybody looked at was the price tag. LOL For all the public cared I could have hatched the babies out that day and they would have been happy as long as they where 5 bucks cheaper than the guy next to me.

Now that I am in Chicago I might try again but you have to stay on top of it. Oh yeah your main question was "Did I use total darkness?" No I gave them a area where they could get to near darkness but I think the day length has more affect than some would like to admit. I mean how else was i able to look at the calendar in October and plan out when i would get eggs and hatchlings and be within a week???

later Jason

>>Now that I am in Chicago I might try again but you have to stay on top of it. Oh yeah your main question was "Did I use total darkness?" No I gave them a area where they could get to near darkness but I think the day length has more affect than some would like to admit. I mean how else was i able to look at the calendar in October and plan out when i would get eggs and hatchlings and be within a week???
>>
>>later Jason
>>

Well, Jason, you're in the north now. You'll find days are shorter up here than in FL. Also, it's easier to cool your snakes when it isn't so hot outside. You actually can start cooling your snakes in November, take them out in, say, Feb, and start them on your way to having eggs by end of May, or so. Actually, my Dione's ratsnakes have a very short incubation time and I usually have babies by mid-June...hahaha.

Thanks for the post...Terry

PS: I brumate my snakes in total darkness

Terry you are probably one of the guys who have notes on everything. Look at when you animals produced last year and think about getting babies earlier by skipping a month of the year. If you have your animals on light timers it is that simple. I see people take their animals from total darkness to full light and wonder how the don't send their snakes into shock. Luckily our snakes are very tough. It gives us so much leeway to mess up that we all think we know what we are talking about

Later Jason

Jason, I probably didn't answer your post very well. I'm not well versed on timers and I don't use any lights, just natural light. I understood that you were changing the lighting to get the snakes to mate earlier. I just move my snakes from darkness to the dim lighting of the Herp Room about March. It doesn't seem to bother them as they hide most of the time anyway. About a month later I get direct sunlight in my snakeroom and some of the snakes like to bask. I don't want to breed my snakes earlier because I don't usually go to herp shows, but I would just take them out a month earlier if I wanted to do that which I've done before.

You're right, our snakes are tough. I've made lots of mistakes in the past, part of how we learn. There's still lots more for me to learn and why I don't mind sticking my neck out on these forums. There's certainly some much better breeders out there, not something I've had a high priority for. Remember though, I've bred mostly very cool adapted snakes which brumate for several months and would be underground all that time in the wild.

Do you think if I kept lights on my snakes they would stay active longer? Do you think it would affect how they breed?

TC

If you had lights on 24-7 while brumating I think it would mess them up and if you didn't get them light in the spring I think that would also mess them up. If you want, try it. Keep a pair in complete darkness using tape to heat them and see what happens. I would guess that they would likely still breed but it would be later and possibly with less fertility. Or maybe they would be fine and not even notice. It would be interesting.

I believe that our snakes sense the seasons and time of year by the length of light provided. There is evidence that some of the montane snakes need UV lighting. These would be the sky island snakes that bask a lot when possible. There is a study being done now with a viper. It makes sense with them being so high up and the UV being more intense. Also the food items being fewer and less nutritious than in the lower altitudes.

Later Jason

Why would a montane snake need UV, or more UV, than another non-montane snake?

Hey there. Sorry I didn't see you post until today. As far as the UV requirements the why's are not something I know for sure except to say evolution. I am referring to a talk I heard in stating this and the speaker said that while the research is far from finished the first data set supports this theory. Basically a group of montane vipers where being kept and as a group where not doing all that well. They where "healthy" but not growing real well. A group was allowed exposure to UV and they more than doubled the growth rate of the group not exposed to UV.

The theory is that the snakes have evolved to use the UV to help them. They are in a high mountain range with a short warm season and seemed to have adapted. This year there will be test of the wild group to check for a raise in something in the blood but I don't remember what they will be testing for. The results will be compared to the captives both with and without UV exposure.

I am sorry but I don't remember the particulars of the heart of the subject that I am sure you are looking for. It was not that complicated but my memory won't give me the chemical names or the specifics.

The speaker I am referring to is not a quack or anything but I would be reluctant to put his name down when I cannot remember enough to make the statement make sense. If you are interested email me and I will give you his info and you can get the story from him so I am not messing up any details.

Later Jason

The air is less dense at higher elevations. At 12,000' radiation can be 280% of levels at sea level. That includes violet and ultraviolet radiation. The animals that bask in montane climates are adapted to environments with higher levels of radiation. How they use it, and if they need it and why, would be answers for the more scholarly inclined than I

Makes perfect sense to me.

Forky

Thanks Forky. If the radiation differance is right that makes even more sense. The nutritional value of the food items is something I didn't question so I have no other info of value.

Later Jason

Thanks for the post. I would like to hear more. Way back when I worked for the Bronx Zoo, I did a lot of research on UVA & UVB as they relate to calcium metabolism in insectivorous lizards. The work was done in collaboration with herpetologists at the American Museum of Natural History. We found UV light had a lot to do with the physiological production of chemicals that aided in Vit. D2 D3 synthesis, which aids in calcium uptake. This was 30 years ago and much more is known today...

I was curious about your post because snakes eat whole food with readily absorbable calcium. I was not aware of any calcium or UV related problems related to snakes. I am skeptical about claims that high elevation food items are less nutritious? I am also curious about what problems the european vipers had in captivity. I am always very leery of such statements without a detailed description of how the study animals were maintained in captivity. Husbandry techniques often speak volumes when it comes to some species doing poorly in captivity.

Anyway, I am not being critical of the work you discuss because I have not seen the papers or the methods. I am, however, naturally skeptical, particularly in this arena. Lastly, I am open-minded to the possibility that anything is possible too. Thanks.

Oops!!! I also wanted to inquire, what did you mean when you said in regard to montane food items:

"the food items being fewer and less nutritious than in the lower altitudes."

Could you explain that statement???? Thanks.

Nice Corn, are you selling it?

Miller
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1.1 Florida King ('02 Pit & '00 Pearl)
1.1 Eastern Kings (2004 Orca & ?)
1.0 Black Milksnake (2005 no name yet)
1.0 Chow Chow (2003 Papi)
0.2 Cats (Stella and Shug)

Thanks but no its not for sale. It is a Abbott line okeetee and she should breed for me this season. I have a female from a year earlier that will produce again this year I hope.

Later Jason