Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I recently moved a pair of albino thayeri crosses out of my collection. I must say they were the prettiest albinos I’ve ever seen and I hated to move them however I did so because I wanted to continue working with my classic line of highly variable animals. Sadly, I knew there is entirely too much banter about how you can’t trust someone working with hybrids or crosses to also produce something that is “pure”. I think this notion is kind of sad if only from the perspective that some in the hobby are so fixated on the concept of purity that they allow it to override their ability or desire to judge the character of a fellow hobbyist on more sustentative criteria.

Anyway, as for “pure” thayeri, it’s my opinion that they are going to be exceptionally hard to find. Decades ago when all this started the various forms of mexicana were freely interbred. Crossing to alterna was also common. Basically this means that the majority of the captive population is rightfully suspect to not being pure. To the end of selecting the most pure animals however, I think it’s important to know what characteristics constitute “classic” thayeri. There is an entire suite of characteristics but over the years I’ve looked for one particular trait as a guide, a simple tri-lobed head pattern. I don’t see that and I pass. It isn’t a judgment on the breeder as I have no illusions about any of these animals being completely pure. This is just to me a defining feature of a classic thayeri and one I don’t see very often.

Incidentally, the albinos were done by a guy who worked for years backcrossing to classic thayeri. By blood they were >90% true thayeri. He routinely produces albinos of every phase that manifest classic thayeri traits and the pair I got from him had very small and simple tri-lobed head patterns. Somehow I can’t help but respect the work behind years of intelligent husbandry whether it’s Jeff’s albinos or Tim’s Vivid creations.

And you laid it out very respectful too. Unfortunately, for me, I have no interest in animals from someone I do not know and is also selling crosses. It's more about the odds, especially if that is all you know about the guy. I'll be honest, the idea of crossing animals is interesting. But, in my opinion, it just isn't worth it. They can do it all they want and I don't have to like it, it's a free country (sorta). I do not judge them poorly for doing it either, again, it's just not for me.

That's my worthless two cents.

That is nicely put. But, as Brad indicated, absent other information about a breeder’s track record, I too would pass on obtaining animals from those that are known hybridizers. Not passing judgment, just personal practice. One comment concerning your search for “pure” thayeri. I think there are quite a few out there—uncontaminated by hybrid genes—but you’ve got to search carefully. You mentioned that you rely on the presence of a tri-lobed head pattern as a reliable thayeri character. As you probably know, although that feature does appear in thayeri, it is not always present, even among littermates. It can also occur in related forms like mex-mex.

Cheers,

Bob Hansen

“absent other information about a breeder’s track record, I too would pass on obtaining animals from those that are known hybridizers.”

By definition a “known” hybridizer would have some kind of track record. The question is would you seek it out. If most interested in purity where honest I think they’d come up with a resounding no.

I’m not sure where all this search for lineage information is going. Seems to me its descending into a clicks of breeders who like to stroke each others feathers. Time was you looked into the lineage of your animals because you were looking to maintain genetic diversity and avoid inbreeding depression. Now its so you can say you’re stock comes from a stand up guy. Entirely too subjective for me.

When selecting thayeri, I look for breeders who display well maintained classic neonates, know something about the form, and show some level of enthusiasm for them. Only after passing this test do I ask about lineage.

As for the tri-lobed not being fool proof I understand that. Even produce so myself. Still you've got to make a judgement call on something tangible. You wouldn't buy a bull dog with a long snout would you?

Tony,
You hit some really great points. If I had a quarter for everytime I thought about purchasing that pair of albino thayers x ruthvens from you...I probably could've bought them from you To me they are very attractive.

Hope to see you again next year at Daytona.
Russ

First off I would like to say that you posted this the most tasteful way I have read this touchy topic....Good job.

Here goes my reply......

I did so because I wanted to continue working with my classic line of highly variable animals.
Tony....Do you think that the variability has been lost in thayeri? I line breed thayeri and have for a few generations and the variability gets better in my opinion.....I very seldom breed a milksnake phase thayeri to another...same goes for leonis phase thayeri....I usually breed a MSP to a Leonis for variability. No variability has been lost...

Sadly, I knew there is entirely too much banter about how you can’t trust someone working with hybrids or crosses to also produce something that is “pure”. I think this notion is kind of sad if only from the perspective that some in the hobby are so fixated on the concept of purity that they allow it to override their ability or desire to judge the character of a fellow hobbyist on more sustentative criteria.

This I agree with you 100%.....Some of the most outrageously beautiful snakes are hybrids. The Pastel kings I saw in Daytona at Steve Osborne's table were the nicest snakes at the show in my opinion. Steve still breeds pure snakes too and I would buy them as pure because I have met him and know him. It is too bad that there are some 'bad apples' out there that make breeding hybrids along side breeding 'pure' snakes such a hard thing to do and even worse it is harder to get people to believe you are legit.....I plan on someday breeding some crosses and I would never sell as pure them or attempt to mislabel them as pure species.

Anyway, as for “pure” thayeri, it’s my opinion that they are going to be exceptionally hard to find. Decades ago when all this started the various forms of mexicana were freely interbred. Crossing to alterna was also common. Basically this means that the majority of the captive population is rightfully suspect to not being pure. To the end of selecting the most pure animals however, I think it’s important to know what characteristics constitute “classic” thayeri.

After seeing many wild collected and wild photoed thayeri over the last couple years I think what I breed is 'pure' thayeri. And most of what I see here THIS forum are 'pure' thayeri....to think they are crosses is purely a guess on your part. What we do in captivity is completely different than the wild. When line breeding we select the best looking offspring from one pairing and later pair them up with each other or to the parent animals. This can have one of two effects....One being desirable and the other not. The desired effect is when all the 'good' traits are passed on to the next generation offspring from both parents and the other undesirable effect is when 'bad' traits are grouped from each parent.....Undersirable color, pattern or even health can be unwantingly achieved.

There is an entire suite of characteristics but over the years I’ve looked for one particular trait as a guide, a simple tri-lobed head pattern. I don’t see that and I pass. It isn’t a judgment on the breeder as I have no illusions about any of these animals being completely pure. This is just to me a defining feature of a classic thayeri and one I don’t see very often.

It IS good to set standards, but a tri-lobed head pattern (I call it the tri-dot) is mostly a L. m. mexicana characteristic. Some good characteristics that a "classic" thayeri has are these:
1) The neuchal is more of a spot/dot/or area rather than a stripe as in alterna and Mexmex.
2) All the wild type thayeri I have seen in person or in photos have grey faces......Black faced ones resemble Alterna, Pyro and Ruthveni.
3) A non-line-bred thayeri WILL have speckles (especially down the sides) in its pattern. This is also known as a slight ontogenetic change a Mexicana goes through......But even through line breeding a pure thayeri can be clean and "vivid".
4) The most outstanding characterstic I use is head/neck shape and/or eye shape.....Some people cannot see this, but thayeri have a pronounced jawline (much like alterna) and do not have 'bugged' eyes as alterna do.

Incidentally, the albinos were done by a guy who worked for years backcrossing to classic thayeri. By blood they were >90% true thayeri. He routinely produces albinos of every phase that manifest classic thayeri traits and the pair I got from him had very small and simple tri-lobed head patterns. Somehow I can’t help but respect the work behind years of intelligent husbandry whether it’s Jeff’s albinos or Tim’s Vivid creations.

I agree with you here too.......The work it takes to make such a cross 'appear' to be pure deserves as much congratulations as the work it takes make a pure snake 'appear' not to be......(LINE BREEDING again).
I also hear that if you breed one species to another then breed the offspring of them back to one parent species for 9 generations DNA testing cannot even trace the other species used in the cross.....Is this true? I will never know since that would take the best of 30 years to prove out......LOL

Very well put Tony....and it is too bad that some people have ruined the idea of producing pure snakes alongside hybridized snakes and expecting 'TRUST' with the whole community......I just hope that when and if I decide to produce a "pastel king" that people will still buy my Dan Vermilya, Tim Gebhart, David Weymouth, Evan Stahl, Chris Bodner, Russ Bates, Mike Kochvar, Chris Garcia and John Lassiter Thayeri............
And this is MY "DOS CENTAVOS!!!!!!!!!"

John Lassiter

The danger with posting is that you have to blindly commit time to replies ARGGGG!

“Do you think that the variability has been lost in thayeri?”

In a way diversity has increased because we now have the line bred types as well. I guess lose of diversity is subjective but I don’t see near the number of unique thayeri I used to see. Way too many orange leonis and intermediate milks in my opinion and yes I have one of each in my collection LOL!

“After seeing many wild collected and wild photoed thayeri over the last couple years I think what I breed is 'pure' thayeri. And most of what I see here THIS forum are 'pure' thayeri....to think they are crosses is purely a guess on your part”

Wow don’t know where to start here but saying that long term captive bred lineages are pure based on phenotype is a “guess”. The guess might be right but it’s something you can’t know for sure given the fact that they were widely crossed generations ago.

“It IS good to set standards, but a tri-lobed head pattern (I call it the tri-dot) is mostly a L. m. mexicana characteristic”

Can’t say I’m an expert but I’ve kept all three mexicana over the years and there is a lot of crossover in characteristics. I don’t have the reference right at hand but do not agree that the tri-lobed head pattern is mostly associated with L.m. mexicana. Anything we say about a variable animals is of course only a generality but by and large thayeri have cleaner head patterns relative to the other forms. All forms can have somewhat of a tri-lobed pattern yes but it is at its cleanest in thayeri. Note I said SIMPLE tri-lobed pattern (or at least thought I did). Of all forms thayeri is also most likely NOT to have a definitive head pattern. I like those too!!!!!

I like the way you handle yourself Tony......You didn't take anything into offense like people over on the 'other' forum.....LOL

Now.......Let's see some pics of your mexicana......

Cheers,
John Lassiter

John,
Could you provide a link or perhaps an edited photo showing the things you mention so that some of the less experienced (myself included) can understand all the terms you guys are referring to..specifically (tri-lobe, nuchal and any of the other terms being used to identify thayeri).

I guess I probably should be more into scales and scale counts but for the life of me it's never provided as much interest, excitement, or enthusiasm as the colors of the thayeri king snake.

Thanks,
Russ

I will work on an illustrative post for you and others, but in the mean while......

A nuchal marking is the mark on the back of the neck.....Alterna and mexmex usually have a variable lengthed stripe......Most Thayeri that have a nuchal marking do not have a striped mark, rather a spot or dot of lighter color (usually ground color) in the first saddle behind the head......Keep in mind most MSPs do not have nuchal spots, but some do......

Here are some examples of nuchal spots on leonis phase thayeri.....

A tri-dot or tri-lobe marking is on the back of the head....Most people think it looks like a mask or skull on the back of the head.....MANY Mexmex have this...some thayeri do too......

Here is an example of a 'somewhat' tri-dot head marking on a thayeri....

In this pic you can see the nuchal 'stripe' and tri-dot (skullhead) head pattern on the Mexmex......

Here are some more head and neck shots of Mexmex to show tridot and nuchal markings.....

John Lassiter

I forgot to add people to the list like Rick Millspaugh, Michelle Rogers, Ken Castevens, Jonel Lopez and now Tony D. and Brad Alexander.......LOL

This is not only a list of the people who enjoy great, variable Mexicana it is an ever growing list of ADDICTS......HAHAHAHAHAH

John Lassiter

on this one? He definately doesn't have the tri-lobed head pattern in the classic sense you mentioned. I agree with the core premise you have on pure thayeri BUT sometimes a pairing just spits something out that is so unusual that you just gotta have it. Most people look at this thayeri and are attracted to the sharktooth pattern on his head but it was really the huge amount of red all the way to the tip of his nose that got me with this one. My goal is to produce a thayeri with an extreme red head. I'm not totally sure if it will happen but I'd love to produce a similar female and then line breed them.

I'm guessing but I'd stick my neck out and say that most of us like something a little unusual. Some like thin saddles, others reduced black, intense orange and reds, yellow, keyholed saddles, and white. Most of us do take the head pattern into consideration too. I'm not going to generalize and say you don't look at these "unusual" differences too. But is that really your defining criterea, the tri-lobed head pattern?

BTW Tony welcome to the forum.

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Vichris

Vichris Variables

If I passed it would only be because its a MSP. Still you have to admitt the pattern there is triangular maybe not tri-lobed but definately onlong the lines of a good clean head pattern. Anyway its good you called me out on this. Looking at the 4 I have and the 2 I'm looking at hard there aren't many classic tri-lobed head patterns in the bunch! Guess I'm FOS! LOL

...the bronze colored iris is more reliable of a characteristic than the head pattern.

Let's just go to Doctor Arroyo and catch some more...oh wait. They would try to SHOOT us. My bad....

Chris