Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I know I have always been told to STERILIZE, STERILIZE, STERILIZE!, but recently I was discussing with somebody the benefits of the microorganisms living in dirt and plants taken from outside. I have heard that the organisms are beneficial and that they will help to get rid of harmful bacteria and decay waste. Anybody have any opinions on the subject??
Thanks
-Stage9

I posted within the Snake Forum..

Soil contains a tremendous variety of bacterium, fungi, nematodes and protozoa along with a host of other micro-organisms. While some are beneficial, such as Azobacter vinelandii, in “fixing” nitrogen to be utilized by plants, others can be down right dangerous, such as Enterococcus faecium, Staphylococcus aureus and Pseudomonas aeruginosa, some of which have developed into strains that have developed resistance to the antibiotics, including vancomyin and methicillin, commonly used to combat them.
Personally, I would use substrate prepared for use within the vivarium only, as such is readily available and poses a lower risk to the flora and fauna within your vivarium, rather than use soil excavated from an unreliable source…

Best regards,

Jeff
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Jeff Snodgres
University of Arkansas
snodgresjeffreys@uams.edu
501.603.1947

It is literally impossible to keep the inside of a herp tank sterile or even semi sterile.
If the substrate is inhabited by a healthy soil flora and fauna, this creates a highly competitive environment for pathogenic or at leeast "unhealthy" germs.
Thats why I inoculate the soil of all of my tanks

It is literally impossible to keep the inside of a herp tank sterile or even semi sterile.
If the substrate is inhabited by a healthy soil flora and fauna, this creates a highly competitive environment for pathogenic or at leeast "unhealthy" germs.
Thats why I inoculate the soil of all of my tanks

It is literally impossible to keep the inside of a herp tank sterile or even semi sterile.
If the substrate is inhabited by a healthy soil flora and fauna, this creates a highly competitive environment for pathogenic or at leeast "unhealthy" germs.
Thats why I inoculate the soil of all of my tanks well, not for the desert setups with a good portion of forest soil. This leads to the development of a rich soil fauna and flora, including bacteria, fungi and lots of arthropodes.
Considering the host specificity of most parasites, it is very unlikely to import parasites by this means.
On th eother hand, these critters get rid of any overseen insect parts or feces very rapidly.
In my big rainforest tanks you can see even larger non removed droppings vanishing completly within 24 hrs.
In contrast, in a "clean" tank , pathogens potentially excreted in low amounts in the feces find a brilliant non competitive environment to thive and multiply. Hence overseen feces can be quite harmful in "semi sterile" tanks, wheres thats normally no problem in tanks with "living soil".
Being a microbiologist by training, I know, what I say!

Thats nothing new, I do this since decades and many german herpers nowadays believe in these statements and do the same.
Our success speaks for itself.
In my larger rainforest setups I have not exchanged soil for many years-and the substrate still looks and smells like fresh forest soil.

Ci@o

Ingo

It would be much better to leave the naturally occuring or low count microorganisms that are in many lizard species alone and stop following so many urges to treat anything that is seen in a fecal. That is causing more damage than help in many cases of young dragons that need to build their immune systems on their own. By treating them with meds, where they are not health compromised, many times there are going off food, ruining their digestive tract Fauna and even causing their deaths. Given a few weeks on thier own, they can clear it or bring them into normal control amounts.

As far as dirt goes, I really would not recommend this for any lizard species as we already know they are very susceptible to terrestrea fungi, candida and Chrysosporium anamorph of nannizziopsis vriesii, commonly called Yellow Fungus Disease and it is know that most contagions of this comes from soil. Sometime picked up in the wild and spread to other lizards, even found in laying bins of store purchased soils that are farmed in warm tropical areas.

These fungi have also cause a lot of havoc in captive breed species being imported from South and Central America, to the point they are epidemic in some lizard species coming from pet stores and infection existing colonies as they pass so easily from animal to animal or soil to human hand/clothes to animals.

So, I do not think exposing them to dirt is such a good idea, thinking it will be beneficial to them.
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www.reptilerooms.com

I'm for the dirt. All the species of bacteria listed above are found everywhere. They are problematic only as opportunistic pathogens that take advantage of otherwise unhealthy herps. A perfect example is the staph infections in the upper respiratory system. Tracheal washes routinely find this bacteria, but it's overgrowth is more often then not attributed to other causes of RI, namely inadequate husbandry or viral disease. The antibiotic resistant strains are more a problem when dealing with other reptiles, and not environmental sources. These strains are resistant from incompetent antibiotic use in animals. They don't naturally build a resistance while sitting outside.

The benifits of a naturalistic, (nearly) self sustaining enclosure is unmeasurable. Your "dirt" should be a benificial substrate and not whatever is found in your backyard. A mix should be created to encourage proper husbandry perameters and plant growth. While unlucky to live in an area void of reptiles (if you know where to go you can find garter snakes but they aren't everywhere), this allows me to be relatively free to use outdoor substrates. In areas with more wild herps, it is much more likely to pick up disease and parasites. That's my word of caution

Ian

ps, naturalistic vivaria can also be hazardous if not kept properly. Overgrowths of fungus and pathogens, and foreign body ingestion are a few hazards. Your herps must be in prime health, husbandry must be optimal, and a "sterile" hospital cage should be available if your herp was ever to be sick.

I guess you must also live somewhere where you did not have birds flying overhead and leaving traces of their passing.... this is where many fungi come from
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www.reptilerooms.com

Fungus, like bacteria, lays all around. It is common. Birds, bugs, mice, voles, whatever, micro flora is part of day to day life. Again, like bacteria, it's an opportunistic pathogen and healthy herps have an immune system well equiped to fend off anything of the like.

Any danger is from organisms evolved to specifically and directly attack reptiles. The snake mite is a prime example. Even this is not a major problem. The immune system in a healthy herp can limit effects of external and internal parasites, while to the same benefit, if a problem like this arrises, there is steps to take to assist in eradication.

Ian

within the confines of a vivarium, the bacteria indicated are far more likely to colonize and become an even greater problem, as Staphylococcal infections have been on the increase within captive reptile collections over the past four years, some of which have proven to be detrimental.
Keep in mind, nature uses several weapons to keep pathogens in check, many of which go beyond what is possible to replicate within the vivaria..
I'm not against the use of soil as a substrate, as I have several naturalistic vivaria within my collection. However, I harbor grave concerns regarding the use of feral soil not treated for parasites and pathogens.
All told, soil is an okay substrate, so long as it originates from a safe source, or has been treated, though there are certainly better options available.
Using natural soil and relying upon the flora and fauna residing within such to minimize enclosure maintenance is a recipe for problems down the road...

Best regards,

Jeff
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Jeff Snodgres
University of Arkansas
snodgresjeffreys@uams.edu
501.603.1947

Immune systems seem pitiful.
A healthy reptile kept on dirt (outdoor dirt) in conditions allowing them to be healthy, controlling stress levels (which kill almost as fast as dehydration, common with bad substrate choices), and the abilty to defend itself from what nature provides to make balance in an environment can rip entire claws, and the end of a toe clean off, with no medical intervention, regrow that toe end and a claw in less than 2 weeks, Ive seen this with a timor monitors I had that was over 9 years old when he was sold, Ive seen this with male beardies that broke a leg or foot jumping almost 4.5ft across their cage (yes they can do it) and landing wrong, I simply reset the legg, splinted it and a week later it was healed with no indication in 2 weeks that anything ever happened, with reptiles that have deep cuts, recent surgery that closes and heals and the stitched skin sheds off in 3 weeks from the incident on dirt with no antibiotics.
They grow fast, live long, reproduce like mad, and break all standards set down by so called experts when they live on real substrates that are useful to them. Im not speaking from books, studies, or opinions, Im speaking from experience, the experience that occured after I was skeptical of this advice and was asked to try it on my own before I said it was bad.
Ever see what happens when a reptile craps on real outdoor dirt in their cage, it dries up, and breaks down so fast you might not realize it was there in a day, depends on how big the pile was. Same with urine, the bacteria break it down in no time at all, it doesnt spoil the substrate, it doesnt get moldy, why, its not organic, its real dirt.
Now keep in mind that for a specific species you need to mix that substrate to be close to what they evolved to use. The results are great. Red ackies, I keep them on creek bank dirt mixed with a percentage of playbox sand and some field dirt.


I keep all of my lizards on dirt with 24/7 basking lights, some have flourescent lights or an extra flood bulb suspended higher for ambient light during daytime, no UV, none at all.
This was taken 1 ft underground, I dug her up too early..

A while later..

Note theres still the same dirt on the eggs, 123-124 days later, hatching, no mold, dirt does not cause mold to healthy organisms like these eggs.

This is 36 hours after they hatched, I then removed these 2 from the incubator.

13 days old, they lived on dirt right away, a sandy dirt mixture I dug up a few hundredf feet from my yard, yes sometimes Ive had to drive a good distance to find a dirt that was right for each lizard species or adapt the dirt to them. 2 inches of growth in that time alone.

Some others, all living on dirt..

Flavi-argus, given to me a few months ago, digs and burrows constantly, grew 1 almost 1 ft in that time, hes going on 4ft long now.

Storrs monitor, second smallest species, yet hes 16.5 inches long.

The largest female whitethroated monitor ever known of, almost 6.5ft long, spent most of her life from hatching to now (4 years old in December) living on dirt.

Inside her cages some pics, 2 feet deep of dirt 10ft from side to side, alot of digging, and carrying, but worth it, field dirt thats all, theres about 20 lbs of sand mixed in there, but thats almost 3 cubic yards in this cage alone.

Taken from one end of the cage looking at the basking spot.

I still have one beardie from when I used to breed them, I decided they werent as much fun for the effort involved as monitors are. I had a friend sell the adults through his business to find someone who was interested in them and he could benefit from it. I never sold any offspring myself from 216 eggs one pair layed in dirt in 10 months time. Im not in this for money, its hobby, one Ive invested a big part of my life into, I kept one hatchling after looking at a picture of that male hatching, just had to keep that one at least, hes a huge dragon to, outgrew both mom and dad, he was over 22 inches at 1.5 years old, and talk about beautiful colors, he lived in dirt from 1 month old on. I was skeptical of advice I was given about dirt for substrate, 24/7 basking lights, and 130f and higher basking temps, as well allowing them to eat when they want as much as they want and make their own schedules while growing up to becoming adults, guess what I tried it, and the results speak for themselves.
To this day I still thank those who gave me the advice that worked, have a great day everyone.