Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I know I have always been told to STERILIZE, STERILIZE, STERILIZE!, but recently I was discussing with somebody the benefits of the microorganisms living in dirt and plants taken from outside. I have heard that the organisms are beneficial and that they will help to get rid of harmful bacteria and decay waste. Anybody have any opinions on the subject??
Thanks
-Stage9

I'm not sure what you are asking. Do you mean the benefits vs. detriments of using soil and branches from outdoors in your snake's enclosure? Please clarify.

Yes, basically benefits vs. detriments of using unsterilized outdoor material. Also sterilized materials vs. nonsterilized
(obtained outdoors) material. For this I am please asking for all to set aside fear of pesticides etc..., just considering bacteria and microorganism.

If your setting up a natural environment the benifitial bateria will soon return to the soil, the risk of bringing in harmful parasites, or mites is too great to not sterilize.

Soil contains a tremendous variety of bacterium, fungi, nematodes and protozoa along with a host of other micro-organisms. While some are beneficial, such as Azobacter vinelandii, in “fixing” nitrogen to be utilized by plants, others can be down right dangerous, such as Enterococcus faecium, Staphylococcus aureus and Pseudomonas aeruginosa, some of which have developed strains that have developed resistance to the antibiotics, including vancomyin and methicillin, commonly used to combat them.
Personally, I would use substrate prepared for use within the vivarium only, as such is readily available and poses a lower risk to the flora and fauna within your vivarium, rather than use soil excavated from an unreliable source…

Best regards,

Jeff
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Jeff Snodgres
University of Arkansas
snodgresjeffreys@uams.edu
501.603.1947

I have heard that the organisms are beneficial and that they will help to get rid of harmful bacteria and decay waste.

They will, but it is a question of scale. If you are keeping a kingsnake in a 10 foot x 10 foot enclosure, the bacteria may be able to break down the waste quickly enough that the snake wouldn't be crawling through it all the time (there are lots of other places to crawl). However, in a cage, the snake is forced to crawl around and through its own feces frequently and this increases the risk of infection.
As for getting rid of harmful bacteria - the best way to do that is good hygiene.
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Chris Harrison
Central Texas

I would have to agree with Chris, as it would be unwise to consider the use of such substrate, should your reasoning be aligned with a reduction of enclosure maintenance...

Jeff
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Jeff Snodgres
University of Arkansas
snodgresjeffreys@uams.edu
501.603.1947

I diagree, I setup all my animals with wetland filters and loose leafy substrates on soil containing earthworms, and other biological factors. These types of enviroments need never be more then occasionally spot cleaned. The Size of the enclosure is not as important as the depth of the substrate, deaper is better.The wetland filter takes care of most of the waste removal as most animals will deficate in the water.

Which is one reason I enjoy these forums, as there truly is no "single" way to do anything and still incur a degree of success..
I believe waste material takes a greater amount of time to break-down within the vivarium, unless you are using environmental systems which mimic the temperature fluctuations, sun, wind, rain and humidity found outdoors, or spot cleaning the vivarium multiple times per day. If you are merely spot cleaning your vivariums, I am certain you would be disappointed with the findings, should you try a swab culture of the interior.
Deeper substrate allows for better colonization of anaerobes, though not all beneficial bacteria are anaerobes and a few have been shown to cause serious deep tissue infections within reptiles.
I am by no means against naturalistic vivariums, I maintain several myself, though I do not believe excavating soil from a feral source without "cleaning it up" first would be a wise decision.

Best regards,

Jeff
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Jeff Snodgres
University of Arkansas
snodgresjeffreys@uams.edu
501.603.1947

That much I agree with you on, you should start with a sterile environment the risk of picking up a harmful bacteria, fungus or parasite is too great.

I really would not recommend this for most reptiles as we already know so many of the terrestrea fungi, including Chrysosporium anamorph of nannizziopsis vriesii, commonly called Yellow Fungus Disease comes from soil. Bird droppings are a prime source of this in soil. Sometime picked up in the wild and spread to other reptiles, even found in laying bins of store purchased soils that are farmed in warm tropical areas.

These fungi have also cause a lot of havoc in captive breed species being imported from South and Central America, to the point they are epidemic in some lizard species and several snake species have also now developed these that are coming from pet stores chains, infecting existing colonies as they pass so easily from animal to animal or soil to human hand/clothes to animals.

So, I do not think exposing them to dirt is such a good idea, thinking it will be beneficial to them.
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www.reptilerooms.com

I have my atb's set up in a "natural" style enclosure. They have potting soil that i microwaved for about 15 min's and they also have a couple plants and small tree and branches that i cooked in the oven for a couple hours. This prevents them from growing mold.
They do very well in this set up.
Think about it..these animals have been living in the wild since the begining of time, and doing it quite well in my opinion.
A corn snake for instance can safely and succesfully be kept on a dirt substrate without it getting sick and dieing. Common sense things like cleaing the poop up still need to be done but i think people have gone to far with the pvc pipe and newspaper.

True, perhaps PVC and newspaper have been overdone for animals that have been thriving for a long time in other conditions but as a hobbyist I still have to ask myself how much a replication of "natural" is a standard cage of around 2'x4' with some nuked potting soil and branches surrounded by glass and a few pothos etc.

Where are the wheather componets of fog, rainy season,temp changes, elavation atmosphere differences. light cycles, REAL UV lite,(not something nowhere near REAL sunlight like flourescents) wind,barometric pressures and other things we may not even be able to guage that we are not aware of fo a few. Animals are part of a whole ecosystem as you see on ANY nature show, interdependent on many things.

I applaud your efforts at trying to do what you can but sometimes we as herpers sound a little too high and mighty to the "hygenic" crowd when we think we do it better because of a little mud,water and artificial lite bulbs.

I think there are strong points for both styles as long as we are trying to do right by our charges.

Bob.

PVC and newspaper has it's place, its a matter of focus. If your interest are primarily in genetics and breeding, you are probably better of with a rack of shoeboxes, newspaper, and PVC. If your interest is in providing a suitible environment, then a naturalistic evironment would be the way to go. As far as them being just mud, sticks and pothos, I beg to differ, My naturalistic eviroments start with a mini wetland filter which consists of a pool area that overflows into a substrate area which consist of peat moss, live moss, fungi plants, and trees which is suspended by a plastic eggcrate platform over biobeeds or lava rocks for additional bacterial growth, the water trickles down throught these different substrates in a wetdry filter type fashion where ammonia, nitrites etc are removed and the roots of the plants remove the remain nitrates, metals and other chemicals. The water is then pump back up to the pool area. Where minnows, crabs, or crayfish assist in the breaking down of solid waste. Misters, foggers, storm lighting, and sound effects are on timers and changed seasonally. Lighting also consist of morning, afternoon, and evening. Barometric pressure is unfortunetly difficult to control I imagine you would have to seal the whole system, and I am not sure of it's overall benefit would warrant such an expense, but definitely worth experimenting with, coming up with new ways of doings is part of the fun. Actually now that I think about a barometric vivarium would probably better for breeding frogs then the typical rain simulators.

I think that many(not all) folks that feel they have a naturalistic cage come nowhere close to your attention to detail and are indeed throwing in some humus a few potted plants,sticks and twigs, full spectrum bulbs (not Halide and the like)into a little glass box without real ventilation and patting themselves on the back. It's a start and a good direction to continue in but......

I agree, there are probably many that do not know what they are doing, or don't do enough. That doesn't invalidate the natural setup as a persuit. I think telling beginners that they should just stick to newspaper is kind of like saying you should leave this to the trained professionals, and no one in the hobby has ever appreciated that comment!

And as others have said, there is a place for both.

Bob