Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I used to keep a breeding pair of Black Milks back in the late 90's and I stupidly sold them off. Anyway the animals I had were San Antonio Zoo stock with the female being 6' and the male around 5'. I know of 2 lines and Im wondering whats the origin of them and if there are other lines out there. The two lines Im referring to are San Antonio Zoo and Mark Bell lines.

My questions...

Are Black Milks the biggest lampropeltis ? Even bigger than Micropholis ?

Thanks for any info !

Keith Hillson
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Keith, there are more than two lines of black milks, but I don't know if they're in the United States. I have a friend in Germany that has a different bloodline.

Also, L.t.micropholis is not the largest Lampropeltis. Jonathan Campbell has reported L.t.abnorma from the montane area of central Guatemala reaching lengths of 6'8". These are the true L.t.abnorma I'm talking about, not the bicolored red & black L.t.polyzona that many people call "Guatemalan milks".

Scott Ballard

Who breeds true Abnorma ? I kinda always thought Andean Milks were really big as well but when Ive inquired into breeder sizes of various people seems they average more like 4' or so.

Keith
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>>What line consistantly has the blackest adults ?

Aren't they all solid black? I've never seen an adult that wasn't.

>>Are wild Black Milks imported anymore ?

I don't believe snakes are imported out of Panama and Costa Rica anymore. If that is true, the answer would be no.

>>Whats the biggest known Black Milk in captivity ?

The San Antonio Zoo had one that was over 7 feet. It's photo was in the Vivarium article years ago.

>>Are Black Milks the biggest lampropeltis ? Even bigger than Micropholis ?

There are records of Honduran milks approaching 8 feet. However a 7 foot eastern king would be a "bigger" snake in mass, I suspect.

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Chris Harrison
Central Texas

There is a breeder in Costa Rica producing good Gaigae with locality data however, I don't know how large the adults grow nor have I seen them at the facility. I'm reasonably sure those animals are the same ones in Germany that Scott refered to and the line is not represented yet in the US. If you like, I can add a few of those for you in my shipment next year.
Jeff Jis97@aol.com

Hi,

here is an actual pic of a 2 year old female with locality data from northern Costa Rica. She will not turn totally black and is to my knowledge unrelated to any US stock. She is F1 from wc-animals.
At this moment she is 3 ft plus a few inches.
Here are a few points I'm wondering about.

1. The bands are not white but orange at all of the animals I own from this locality.

2. Instead of being far away from Panama and micropholis or andesiana range, those do not have the snout band Williams was talking about. But the speckled snout Williams reffered to the Panama animals.

Greetings,
Gerrit

Lampropeltis - Koenigsnattern

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http://www.lampropelten.de.vu

One of the characteristics of the range of L.t. gaigeae is they come from high elevations in the mountains forest of Costa Rica and Panama. (from 4300 feet to 7400 acording to Markel) The natural habitat is wet or moist forest at high elevations. The blacks milks I have raise (Bell line) are already 75% black by the time they reach 3 feet. If you look at an elevation map of Costa Rica the northern part is the flat area with no mountain ranges. All black milks turn black as adults but some have a very faint residue of pattern remaining. It is also suggested (per Markel) that L/t. gaigeae develope the black pigment to help them control body temperatures more readily at these higher elevations.

Hello again,

ok, I was not exact enough. This animals come from an elevation close to Miramar. This locality is mentioned as L. t. stuarti range in the Williams and Markel books.
To me they do not look like stuarti. They turn black when they get some size, but you can always see triads on them.

Here is another animal from 2004. It is a pic at the age of 3 month.

Lampropeltis - Koenigsnattern

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http://www.lampropelten.de.vu

So wouldn't this be in intergrade between stuarti and gaigeae rather than a either subspecies?

Not meaning to start the whole "what is a ssp" arguement, but if it is a stuarti looking snake that turns partially melanistic, it sounds like an intergrade to me.
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Chris Harrison
Central Texas

They may be from an intergrade region but look more like hondurensis to me. And we all know they can get dark with age and still see pattern through them.

I have never seen any Hondurans with those mottled snout markings. That is a type V snout pattern that Williams discusses on pages 35-38 in his monologue, that also L.t.micropholis and L.t.andesiana can have. But this animal is L.t.gaigeae all the way.

The elevation near Miramar is around 1400m, which is a little more than 4600 feet. Williams gives elevation data for L.t.gaigeae as 4300-7400 feet.

Scott

Hi again,

I understand your doubts about that snakes, I had the same, when I got them. So what to do? I started counting scales.

All of them had 19 dorsal scale rows at midbody.
To me they are definitely not intergrades between gaigae and stuarti or gaigae and hondurensis, they do not have any visiual signs from this other 2 ssp.

Greetings,
Gerrit

Lampropeltis - Koenigsnattern

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http://www.lampropelten.de.vu

I have a pair of Don Soderberg line - not sure what else that line goes by. Anyways, the female is a monster. Nearly six feet and weighing between 1,700 and 1,800 grams. Jet black. Laid a nice clutch of 12 for me this year too. Babies already heavily tipped. Male breeder is a bit smaller, probably 4.5 feet and 1,100 grams. jet black. Wonderful snakes to work with. Both breeders are 5 years old.

Rob Haneisen

I shot this picture a few hundred yards uphill from where I found the DOR Black Milk. The milksnake was DOR in an some pastureland, but the native habitat there is cloud forest like this -

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Chris Harrison
Central Texas

I picked up 1.1 black milks from the Bells in Tinley Park last month. I was told by someone else that I should have tried to find San Antonio Zoo stock instead because they get bigger and are more likely to turn solid black. This is a photo of one of the ones I picked up.

Jake

np

I have a pair from JCherry, and all I know is that they are supposed to get pretty big. The SAZ has the biggest black milk in captivity I thought. Maybe I'm wrong? I'm not sure how many generations removed from the adult breeders at the SAZ mine are, but they are growing fairly quickly and are little piggies. Great snakes. If you get them, keep them next time!! Anybody know when I could reasonably breed start breeding them? By size or by age??