Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hello All,

I've been lurking about this forum for awhile, so I thought I'd post a question for all you hardcore mexicana enthusiasts.

I am a new addict to the world of thayeri and have accumulated a small group of animals which possess certain traits that I like. However, many of these snakes have been purchased at trade shows so I don't have any lineage information for them. In light of the recent discussion here concerning traits and thayeri purity, I was wondering if any of you could tell me if the "bowtie" pattern seen in thayeri likely results from "pure" thayeri breeding or if it may likely result from a cross. This is especially hard for me to determine because I never see pictures of this pattern for sale. I have posted a picture of an 05 olive-colored female I have which exhibits this pattern and an (unrelated?, bought a different source) 04 olive-colored male which has this pattern near his head. I also happen to like the olive background coloration, so lucky for me both snakes have it. In addition, I'm posting a picture of an early 05 mossy green leonis male that I would love to find a like-colored female for. I just thought I'd throw that in, in case any of you are breeding for green-tone coloration.

Thanks for your time,

Maria Heidkamp

I can't answere but I can say this, those are some nice animals. I particularily like the reduced banding on that middle pic.

Thanks for sharing

Thanks, Brad. I was just drooling over the animals in your post. Simply magnificent. I like the background in your photos, too. I'll have to play around with getting something better than black calci-sand. The snakes come out having too much contrast.

Here are 2 more I picked up at this years NARBC show in Tinley Park, IL. The butterscotch leonis was purchased from the Reptile Depot and hatched 6/18/05. The milksnake phase thayeri I picked up from Outback Reptiles. The neck pattern is a bit messed up but the background color is very white and I just couldn't pass it up. Again, unfortunately I have no idea as to the lineage of these two.

Maria

I almost bought that leonis from Reptile Depot myself a few weeks ago. I dropped by today on my way home and they still had several avaliable. Do you live in Southern California or was it an internet purchase?
Cheers,
Danny Lee

Danny,

I bought the butterscotch leonis at the NARBC trade show which was in one of Chicago's far suburbs. I think they had 3 of them on their table at the time. I attended the show on the first day as soon as the doors opened, so I am surprised that they didn't sell out and they still have some available. They might have all been males, however.

Maria

Maria,

I was at the NARBC in Tinley Park and saw that butterscotch leonis. I looked it over and commented that someone was going to get a very nice and healthy thayeri at a great price with that one, congrats!

Did you happen to hang around and get in on Mark O'Shea's question and answer discussion?

Mike

Mike,

I was very pleased with that purchase. I thought it was a very low price for such a handsome animal. He also has turned out to be a very good eater!

I was not able to stick around for Mark O'Shea's talk, however, I did meet him and got an autographed copy of his new book "Venomous snakes of the world." He was also nice enough to get cheek-to-cheek for a picture! I was amazed that he was just sitting by himself behind his table. No crowds of people...no entourage. He seemed like a very nice, unassuming guy. Did you go to his question and answer session?

By the way Mike, I see you're in central Illinois. Do you attend Lee Watson's reptile swap in Streamwood?

Maria

I did attend Mark's session. My only two reasons for being there were to talk with incubator and rack system manufacturers and listen to what Mark had to say. Extremely knowledgeable herpetologist/field researcher and very interesting to listen to. I loved watching his shows on The Animal Planet. What impressed me the most about him was how he handled questions from some of the young children that were there. He has a real talent for taking their questions seriously and giving them a lengthy response that is detailed, simple for them to understand yet interesting even for the adults to listen to. He acknowledges them in a unique way so as to reinforce their intelligent and curious young minds and I was very impressed. Listening to him speak was well worth the trip there alone.

Never been to Streamwood although I've known about it for quite some time. I get relatively close to there on occasion while visiting my girlfriend in Orland Park, right next door to Tinley. So how is it? Ever see anything interesting there?

Mike

Here's an interesting F1 VR female I bought from Tim early this year. Nice bowties and her mother is a wild collected female.....

Mike,

I LOVE that snake!!! Perfect bowtie saddles...that what I'm talking about!! Thanks for sharing the photo! I can't wait to get some of Tim's animals, maybe next year. For now, I want to get a little more experience with husbandry and breeding under my belt before I care for some of the more pricey gems out there. I really like his earth-toned line so I'm excited to see what he produces next year. Of course, any animals I get from long-time established pure lines like Tim G. and Dan V. I'll have to keep separate from my other trade show aquired thayeri since I can't verify the purity of their lines.

From your description of Mark O'Shea's discussion, I'm very sorry I missed it. Especially since this may have been my last year attending. Next July I'm moving to Anchorage, Alaska, so I'll pretty much be cut off from the reptile world. The Streamwood swap can be worth the trip, but I guess it depends what you are looking for. I go pretty much twice a month to get crickets and/or roaches, and live and frozen mice (I don't have a rodent colony yet, hopefully next year). The bowtie olive female and mossy leonis male from my original post were purchased from SW Reptiles which usually attends the show every other month. They produce some very nice kings and corns. Although I originally started attending the Streamwood show for the tarantula vendors (I have about 60, various species), I have picked up some other very nice snakes as well....some Dumeril's boas and ball pythons. Only a few vendors routinely sell thayeri kings though.

Maria

...and I feel very lucky to have her here. She is one of several '03 and '04 F1 and F2 babies from Tim’s female I have here. Mike and Chris Bodner have also produced many superb babies descended from that same wild female and I have a few of those also, including some very interesting milksnake phase examples. They pair their females up with an incredible orange milksnake phase VR strain male, that bowtie saddle shape has appeared in a few of their babies also and unfortunately for me I passed them by.

We're very fortunate to be involved while Tim has had that productive wild female that's given us a lot of interesting options. His shift towards working more with what he calls his earth-toned thayeri from this wild animal is exciting and I look forward to working with them here. Really neat stuff! And different. The combined traits of this fresh wild blood combined with his striking vivid colors and patterns make for some really interesting and beautiful thayeri. I think it will take a while for most newcomers to appreciate them as we all are drawn to the highly refined, clean and brilliantly colored ones, but after working with them all for a while these wild types look more and more attractive. I love 'em, and there's no doubt they're the real deal.

It sounds like you are about as serious about tarantulas as I am mexicana! That's pretty cool. You taking all this stuff way up to Alaska with you?!!

Mike

A cute '05 female hatched here with her mom and dad.....

Yes, I have seen 3 pics of wild leonis phase thayeri that had the bow-ties. Mostly in the neck area and sometimes the bow-ties are completly split forming two dots.

I agree with Aaron....I think we have seen some of the same pics....LOL
Bowties are very common in mexicana....especially alterna and thayeri.....
A bowtie pattern on a thayeri is very normal and should be considered a trait from the wild....IMHO...
John Lassiter

Thank you Aaron and John for your replies. I'm glad to hear that bowties are wild-type thayeri traits. I wonder why you don't see them more often? Perhaps they are not viewed as favorable traits and therefore are not selected for. Do you think this is true?

Maria

Maria,
It is a favorable trait to some....Each thayeri just has that something to them that a buyer prefers or likes. I also think it is rather hard to try and breed for one such trait like bowtie saddles since they are so variable. For instance.....I have been trying to breed for reduced to no black and will be breeding my second generation siblings together this year....I bet I get some that have thick black borders along with a few that have reduced black...We'll see.
Good luck with your soon to be large collection of thayeri Maria....LOL.....They are SOOOOO addicting.
John Lassiter

John,

Those are some stunning animals you have there. I am also a big fan of reduced black, but I don't think I've ever seen a "no black" thayeri like that!

I have a few other species of kings but thayeri are by far my favorite. I think the first thing that attracted me was the simple beauty of an orange saddle against a dove grey background, but the variability this subspecies exhibits is just mind-boggling. Not to mention their wonderful disposition and handsome little faces.

Thank you for the well wishes. I am very happy to have found this forum where individuals like yourself are so welcoming, knowledgeable, and sincere about sharing their passion for thayeri.

Best Regards,
Maria