Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Lately there have been many hybrid snakes available from a diverse range of species. Some breeders even specialize in hybrid animals, charging thousands of dollars them. In fact, there is a Burmese/Rock cross posted on this sites' classifieds selling for "100,000.00 Firm" right now! It was this advertisement that drove me to uncover the truth about hybrids.

I have spent the last several weeks researching the topic of hybrid FERTILITY. Asking the question; "Are the offspring of parents belonging to 2 separate species capable of producing babies of their own"? I have sent out several emails to well-known hybrid breeders asking if any one of their hybrids ever actually produced young. Also, if the snakes they were selling were intended to be used as breeders. Perhaps not surprisingly no emails have been returned as of yet.

I also read many online publishing about all kinds of cross-species breeding. Plants, fruitflys, mammals, and of course snakes.

Anyone can type "snake hybrid" into Google and find many studies published by universities regarding inter-species breeding.

Here is a exerpt from "The Origin of Species":

B. B.     Post zygotic Barriers: In the event fertilization does occur, post zygotic barriers prevent the hybrid zygote from developing into a viable, fertile adult.
 
1. 1.      Reduced Hybrid Viability: Genetic incompatibility between two species may abort development of the hybrid at some embryonic stage.
2. 2.      Reduced Hybrid Fertility: If two species mate and produce hybrid offspring that are viable, reproductive isolation is intact if the hybrids are sterile because genes cannot flow from one species gene pool to the other.
3. 3.      Hybrid Breakdown: When some species cross-mate, the first generation hybrids are viable and fertile, but these hybrids mate with one another or with either parent species, offspring of the next generation are feeble or sterile.
 
 
Here is the full text published online:  
http://www.tnstate.edu/library/reserves/bioemch24.pdf#search='hybrid fertility 24'

I found that in EXTREMELY rare situations, two animals of different, but very closely-related species can produce reproductively viable offspring. However, it almost never happens.

The one and only credible example of a hybrid producing babies I could find was a well-known (you know the name) python breeder in the US. I spoke with him on the phone briefly and he told me that his male retic/burmese cross once mated with a female parent type and fertilized every egg in the clutch.
However, he also said that it produced infertile clutches each of the 5 years before and never again after that one time. He told me that if you get a hybrid to "assume it was sterile" and not plan to incorporate it into a breeding project. This man has many hybrids an none have ever produced for him.

Hybrids are often beautiful and interesting animals, that are sometimes healthy. I believe there is nothing wrong with producing hybrids. However, I do question the very high prices of some of these animals and the also the way they are presented to the consumer. They should be looked at as a pet or novelty. Don't want to hear that? Prove me wrong.

So, would you pay 100,000.00 dollars for a rock/burmese cross when you could get either a rock or burmese for a 100?

- Joe

First off, mother nature has a funny way of proving us wrong when we try to classify any rules for which she is to follow.
Hybrids can and do reproduce. For instance, Ball X Bloods have been crossed to each other and to pure forms of each more than just once. Same goes for Burm X Retics. Now some hybrids are going to be easier to breed than others. And with that, some folks will be trying to make a big buck selling crosses that would be quite easy to pull of really, like the rock X burm. But to breed a Woma to a Carpet or a Carpet to a macklots and back to a Diamond (like NERD has) is quite a feat of sorts and therfore they should be worth more in my eyes. But ultimately the market, determined by you and other buyers, will say what they are worth. Now if no one has emailed you back about their hybrids, its becasue they are becoming gunshy now. It is a very heated topic where many people have gone so far as to incur death threats or threats of bodily, financial and/or legal harm. ANd not to mention, this topic gets very tiresome. Pro hybrid keepers constantly have to "justify" their work to people and it often falls on willfully deaf and dumb ears.

Now hybrid colubrids have shown nearly no issues with crossing and have been crossed so much it makes my head spin. There are 7,8, and 9 way crosses out there that reproduce just fine. And many breeders report having hybrid vigor with those crosses.

Hybrid boids are a very new endeavor in the history of herpetoculture so not much is truly known. I learned a long time ago that nature has no rules...only humans make them to feel better about the world around them. Say what you want and show all the documentation you want. Because, with time, someone out there will find a loophole in those manmade "rules of nature". One person's statement is not the gold standard. it is opinion.
Roast me all you want but forget what university studies have shown. We are on the frontlines of hybridization, not a grad student. And "laws" of hybrids do not apply to all creatures either. So these are not laws to apply across the board to all living things.
As humans, we need to stop believing that everything already discovered is fact and therefore should not be revisited. It can never hurt to retrace the steps of another grad student (lol) and see what else can be found.
I've said it before and I'll say it again. Nomenclature is man's (fallible) way of labeling boxes of bones and jars of frogs. But every once in a while Mother Nature bursts out of that box and screams "HA! Proved ya wrong!". I think it comes down to humans feeling that they know best. Until God comes down here and labels everything for us, we are merely slightly to highly educated creatures that will never know anything as fact. Supporting evidence helps but once again is not infallible. Ever notice how one week the medical community talks about some supplement (ex: Hormone replacement therapy)being beneficial for us and the next month there is another study showing it can be bad? That's the way it always will be in science.

Just keep you eyes and ears open over the next few years and you'll see some of the things I speak of if you don't already.
I'll admit I don't know everything about hybrids but I do know that we as humans are not all we are cracked up to be. To be honest, I feel our "holier than thou" attitude will be the downfall of human existence. But that, my friend, is a very different topic for another day.

Good detective work on your part. But the work is not complete. The books just haven't been written yet

-Yasser

SR

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Well Yasser,

Somehow I knew you would be quick to fire back on this one
I can accept most of what you said, especially since there is still much uncertainty surrounding the debate. However, there are 2 statements that I dont agree with:

First, are your claims of the many colubrid hybrids being fertile. I regularly see crosses between members of 2 different genuses! Corn/king or pines crossed with rats... The idea that these could produce viable young is rediculous. Perhaps some of the milksnakes or other closely related species could have fertile babies, but i still remain skeptical. You always see a hybrid from to different parent types, NEVER a baby from a hybrid. Why?

Second, the statement about not all laws of nature applying to all living things.... That may be true in certain respects, but when it comes to hybrid fertility the laws apply to all creatures from plants to humans and everything outside or inbetween. Why would snakes be any different?

The whole system for classifying life forms into distinct species is based on whether or not they can produce FERTILE young. It is the basis for the entire system. Sex and reproduction. That is why we dont use physical appearance as a way to classify animals. If we did then a poodle and a St. Bernard would not be the same species. We look at their reproductive capabilities. If a carpet pythons and green tree pythons consistently produce fertile young, then you must re-classify chondros as a carpet python variation. The same goes for all the other hybrid animals in the world.

I should also mention that I found overwhelming evidence to suppport hybrid deterioration, meaning that even if a hybrid does produce 1st generation offspring, the next generation will face even more problems. Also, the term "hybrid vigor" is misleading because it actually refers to animals of the SAME species, not inter-species reproduction. It states that when 2 members of the same species mate, the offspring will posses more desireable traits if there is great genetic diversity between the parents. In otherwords, if you inbreed you will get undesirable results. Thats why mother nature does not usually let brothers be attracted to their sisters. Its also why we find exotic women so attractive. Too close genetically produces bad results, as does too genetically different. You dont want to have sex with your sister, nor do you want to stick it to a chimp. Your partner has to be just different enough to get the best offspring.

I just realized that I havent seen many other types of reptile hybrids. What about lizards and turtles?? I definately have seen crocodilians crossed.

Lastly, I want to reemphasize that I am not opposed to hybridizing snakes, only selling them as breeders if they have not been proven. They are fascinating and we can learn a lot about life and even ourselves from studying them. The general snake-buying public needs to be educated on the facts about hybrid animals so they can make informed purchases.

I agree, the book hasnt been written yet. Our understanding of genetics is in its infancy. So far though, the evidence is stacked against hybrids making good breeders.

- Joe

"First, are your claims of the many colubrid hybrids being fertile. I regularly see crosses between members of 2 different genuses! Corn/king or pines crossed with rats... The idea that these could produce viable young is rediculous. Perhaps some of the milksnakes or other closely related species could have fertile babies, but i still remain skeptical. You always see a hybrid from to different parent types, NEVER a baby from a hybrid. Why?"

Then you haven't done as much research as I thought.
While the ideas I propsed may seem ridiculous to you, they are happening now and have happended in the past.
Steve Rouiss has bred hybrids to hybrids and hybrids to parent species. NERD has done the same. And there ARE in fact colubrid crosses that represent multipe generations of hybridization. Here's a link to a recent post by Henry Dean where he posts pics of his subadult offspring from breeding a Hybrid Corn X Peublan to a Cal. King X Lemon King X Honduran:

http://forums.kingsnake.com/view.php?id=893971,893971

Henry has been doing it quietly for MANY years. He has crosses that goes 9 ways literally. They exist. And with the seemingly taboo view of this practice, it makes me think there are far more out there than most folks think they know of.

And here is where you and I disagree. I believe there are no LAWS of nature. Perhaps merely guidelines with supportive fact. Laws are things that cannot be broken. Mother Nature breaks those rules all the time.
Many of your thoughts and beliefs are based on what has been found with higher vertebrates, more specifically mammals. You say why should it be any differnt for reptiles? I say why not?

As far as recognition of mates, it has been well documented than some Pantherophis species regularly inbreed in nature. And I once had a retic that would try to copulate with the crook in a tree branch in his cage. So they (and we) are not truly as picky as one would think. In relation to humans, Jerry Springer and blow-up dolls prove my point there. We are NOT picky...just some of us are lol.

Science has two types of scientists. Leaders and followers. Those who are followers stand to learn much less than
the leaders. In my book, leaders are those ultimately who learn even more. They question traditional thought and in turn and contribute even more to unconventional concepts.

All I can say for now is let's be sure to discuss this in another 10-15 years and we'll see what we know then about this topic.

Oh and there are croc hybrids and monitor hybrids I am aware of but I imagine lizard and turtle hybrids have barely begun compared to that of snakes. Or perhaps it's becasue they are more complex than snakes and therfore more difficult to pull off. Anyway....

-Yasser

SR

-----

Hi to both of you
" If a carpet pythons and green tree pythons consistently produce fertile young, then you must re-classify chondros as a carpet python variation. "

But they don't produce fertile young, as we know it. And Chondros ARE Morelia at this point, although different enough to have been classified separately in the past. There is enough gene variation in animals that not only color can be affected. Cross genes enough and internal problems occur. Basically, an albino is a defective animal, as it will normally not survive in the wild to to predation. A couple of genes changing how the intestines are formed will not allow a neonate to survive. ALL pythons are very similar in genetic makeup, and can vary by individual animals as to what produces, and what does not produce. Since only 2% or less separates us from chimps, why hasn't that been tried? (not withstanding cultural differences and what we find attractive, lol).

Almost all species (not subspecies) that are now being crossed would never have come into contact normally, usually because of geographical boundries. To cross an animal for designer reasons or to make money because you've been successful at it.....well, it's not for me, but if you want to, go ahead. There's too much yet to be learned about some species of pythons natural lifestyles to "waste" time producing aberrant offspring. I'd like to think that the great ones, Ditmars, Pope, et al....would not be doing this.

After seeing someone at Daytona last year who I hadn't seen in 20 years said to me..."There's people spending $30K on a color morph that don't know what country it's found in.. That's nuts!"
-----
1.1 Blackheaded pythons
1.1 Woma (Juvie female)
2.1 Aussie Olives
1.1 Timors
1.0 Angolan Juvie
1.1 Savu
1.1 Juvie Bloods
1.1 Juvie Balls
1.1 IJ Carpets
1.1 Coastal Carpets
1.2 Macklotts
1.1 Papuan Olives
0.1 Jungle Carpet
2.2 Scrubs (on breeding loan)
1.0 Jungle/Diamond cross
0.1 child, CB
0.1 wife, WC

Ok, so this guy Henry has proven that hybrids can produce viable young. I believe that this man is regularly successful in producing cross-genus animals. I have never seen it before, but his pics seem convincing enough. I would like to know the details of his breeding programs though... How many animals in each clutch were stillborn or had deformed spines? How many infertile clutches has this man dealt with? How many of the animals' siblings were fertile? What is the success/failure ratio? Keep in mind that his successes are more likely to be advertised, while his inevitable failures would be swept under the rug.

There ARE 2 types of scientists, Yasser. Those who readily accept what someone tells them (usually because they want to believe it), and those who demand to see proof. Its the "followers" who don't challenge claims.

I would be a fool to automatically believe that hybrids do produce fertile offspring, without first having proof. It goes against our currently accepted view of reproductive compatibility, and therefore the claims must be supported.

You have convinced me that hybrids produce young more often than I first thought. However, I would still tell someone who was thinking of buying a hybrid to assume it was infertile, unless he/she had strong reason to believe otherwise.

I will acknowledge the talent required to get memebers of different species to breed. I'll be happy to get my 2 carpets to breed for me this year.

------- I really have no idea what Im talking about, but the topic has been bothering me lately and I wanted to get to the bottom of it.-----------------------------------------------

Thats it for me!

We'll pick this up again in 10-15 yrs when we have more documented cases, like you said ...

- Joe

I'll throw in my two cents worth. I definitely agree with Yassar that our attempts at classifying/indentifying are very arbitrary and completely subject to change. I once heard a great quote and don't know who said it, "Nature abhors boundaries". We have a hard time even figuring out what is "natural" anymore, as the human imprint on all other species has become indelible. We have come a long way since Linnaeus, but certainly will undergo many more significant changes in classification in the years to come. I am 48 years old and can't believe how much has changed in herpetoculture since I was a kid, in fact, even that word didn't exist when I was a kid (desperately trying to find even just a few other people interested in reptiles)...we have "discovered" and even "invented" new species since then. I can distinctly remember reading about parthenogenesis in some lizard species, and it blowing my mind (in fact, I still don't completely understand it). Bottom line...anything is possible and we need to keep an open mind, trying not to impose rigid value systems as if they were "truths". And for me, similar to you, I am just hoping to breed my two JCPs this season!

"I am 48 years old and can't believe how much has changed in herpetoculture"

Heck, I'm 58 and find it amazing how much has changed in the 15 years since I left the hobby and returned 2 years ago.
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1.1 Blackheaded pythons
1.1 Woma (Juvie female)
2.1 Aussie Olives
1.1 Timors
1.0 Angolan Juvie
1.1 Savu
1.1 Juvie Bloods
1.1 Juvie Balls
1.1 IJ Carpets
1.1 Coastal Carpets
1.2 Macklotts
1.1 Papuan Olives
0.1 Jungle Carpet
2.2 Scrubs (on breeding loan)
1.0 Jungle/Diamond cross
0.1 child, CB
0.1 wife, WC

I'm only 26, but I've been addicted to herps since I was a toddler. Snakes have always been my favorite. My poor mother!

I agree with Yasser in the fact that nature has no hard rules. I have an interesting example; I was working at The Life Sciences building in Berkley last year (repairing Microscopes) and the discussion was on a CA salamanders. The salamanders on the N East side of the Sierra Mountains can’t breed with the ones on the N West side, BUT they can breed with the ones directly to the south and so on and so on until you get to the southern low altitude pass (forming a U) where they can get threw, and are compatible. I think they call that genetic drift?

I guess one way to get a viable hybrid is to find a genetic link between the two (if available). I do know from Mules that not many but a few are fertile. Again, not a hard rule.

Oh, and I’m 39 and quit keeping snakes for 10 years because of my x-wife. She didn’t like them, on account that she was a snake and didn’t like the competition,lol

I dont have the credentials or experience to convince any of you of what I am saying about this debate. So, I went through the trouble of locating an expert who is. His name is Dr. Robert C. Drewes of the California Academy of Sciences, Herpetology Department.

His phone number and email can be found at the CAS website at this address:

http://www.calacademy.org/research/herpetology/staff.html

I presented our debate to him (in an even-handed way) and he assures me of the following when it comes to hybrid reptiles and amphibians:

--- If 2 individuals of different species mate and produce young, either:

1- The offspring will be sterile or...
2- The offspring are fertile and the parents are wrongly classified as 2 different species and are actually members of the same species.

He made a point to say that it was the "fertility" of the offspring that make all the difference. We can create all kinds of hybrids up the wazoo, but they will only be fertile if both parents are the same species, or occasionally very very closely related members of two different species. He used the different milksnake species as an example.

He also sharply objected to the idea that "Nature has no laws" and responded by saying, "Of course nature has laws, and that is why we have science".

He went on to suggest a book by the world's authority on biology, Ernest Mayr. The book is titled "Principals of systematic zoology". He said that it will clarify for us how a species is defined, along with some of natures "Laws".

I also brought up all the examples of colubrid hybridization I had gathered including the cross-genus examples. He called it "Bull[bleep]". He said that either our known understanding of these concepts was breaking down or someone was trying to bull[bleep] us. Personally, I think the latter is much more likely to be true.

So we can either "Through out all the University Studies" like Yasser has suggested and just call all snakes "snakes" without classifying them by species. Or we can demand to see repeated, unquestionable proof regarding these claims by hybrid breeders, who by the way, have something to gain personally($$$) by falsifying their work. I dont trust people when there is money on the line. People lie.

Have any of you actually produced offspring from a hybrid, or are you just taking someone else's word for it?

Joe

This forum doesnt allow curse words?????

There are some laws of nature that cannot be broken....that's factual. I agree completely that some animals have been reclassified because they weren't completely understood genetically. Chrondros, for example. Now that they're Morelia, they have been crossed w/carpets. That still doesn't make the offspring fertile. There are pics of the offspring online, and also in the new Chondro/Emerald book, and I've seen the cross results myself, and they've shown up at shows, too. BUT, there has never been a breeding of the offspring together that was successful...to my knowledge. It appears at this point to be genetically impossible. Can it happen? No one knows, but at this stage of the game, my money says no. Maybe the genetics that produce them, also says they can't reproduce. Certainly makes sense to me. As stated earlier in this thread, hom many mutants didn't hatch, and how many never even made it to the egg?
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1.1 Blackheaded pythons
1.1 Woma (Juvie female)
2.1 Aussie Olives
1.1 Timors
1.0 Angolan Juvie
1.1 Savu
1.1 Juvie Bloods
1.1 Juvie Balls
1.1 IJ Carpets
1.1 Coastal Carpets
1.2 Macklotts
1.1 Papuan Olives
0.1 Jungle Carpet
2.2 Scrubs (on breeding loan)
1.0 Jungle/Diamond cross
0.1 child, CB
0.1 wife, WC

"I also brought up all the examples of colubrid hybridization I had gathered including the cross-genus examples. He called it "Bull[bleep]". He said that either our known understanding of these concepts was breaking down or someone was trying to bull[bleep] us. Personally, I think the latter is much more likely to be true."

This is interesting since you can hybridize two completely different species of plant, and get viable seeds from the offspring. Does this mean that our known understanding of the concepts are breaking down? No...it means someone proved out that in plants, our concepts were wrong. Your professor is spouting what he has learned from books as THE LAW. The problem is that he probably has no practical experience in actually trying to work with Hybrid snakes. He just is sure he knows, becuase thats been the understanding for him since day one. Alot of academics are like that. Particularly professors at universities. No offense but, this guys opinion is worth diddly IMHO. Neither side here has posted any real proof mind you. Someone show me pics of hybrids producing viable young, and the debate is over. Personally, I think its already happened, and will be proven in short order.

Shawn

Never once did my conversation with the professor touch on plant hybridization. As you can see from the part you decided to quote me on, we were talking about colubrid hybridization. Earlier I mistakenly mentioned plants while noting that the definition of a species refers to all life.

Here is something you can put into quotations:

- You can either trust someone who had dedicated their life to the study of herpetology, and who has nothing personally to gain by declaring hybrid snakes fertile. Or, you can listen to someone who makes a living selling these animals.

No one is saying you cant mate a corn snake to a kingsnake and get fertile young, only that if you can... You must re-classify them as the same species. Period. That is how we define a species.

- Joe

Joe, you said:

"No one is saying you cant mate a corn snake to a kingsnake and get fertile young, only that if you can... You must re-classify them as the same species. Period. That is how we define a species."

Then I guess those fancypants scientists don't know everything after all, right? Considering taxonomists haven't yet grouped Lampropeltis and Pantherophis together into just one genus, they must either be behind the times or their "laws" simply do not apply here and therefore can only be theory.

I don't feel the need to convince anyone here of anything. Time will answer all of these questions. I do think it is a shame to assume anything as fact these days as that can limit the imagination into believing just what the laws of science say.
Also keep in mind that there are FAR more folks breeding and researching snakes in the private sector than in the collegiate/professional sector. That alone supports the fact that the scientific community generally is out of touch with the real goings on in the herp world. Just my opinion.

-Yasser
SR

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Are Macklotts (Liasis Macklotti) and Jungle Carpets (Morelia spilota cheyei) considered the same species, or just really close. The reason I’m asking is NERD has Junglots (Macklott/Carpet X Jungle).

They state;” We have a nice fertile clutch of Carplott (Macklott X Carpet) bred to a Nice Yellow Jungle Carpet hatching now.

Babies are extremely variable!!

These babies are fertile offspring that reproduce.

They change so much as they grow!!!”

IF they are a different species then this would prove ferial Macklott/ carpet offspring.
I don’t know but I find it to be interesting.

Hello all,

I normally hang out in the milk forum but have a beautiful IJCP (which is always hungry) so I come in here every now and then. Hope you dont mind my input on this.

This debate boils down to how you want to define a species. They are many many different definitions. The most known one is the biological species concept, which says that true species can only produce fertile offspring with members of thier own species.

Another one is called the phylogenetic species concept, which is much less restrictive, it says that distinct forms (geographically isolated populations for example) that are related to each other from a single common ancestor are species (there are many more speces under this def. than the other one).

Then there is another def. that says species are populations of organisms which are genetically distinct and breed in such a way as to maintain that distinction (a chodro in the wild, if given the choice between another chondro to breed with of a carpet will choose the other chondro); I like this one.

There are many others.

But all these defs. were created for species in nature. Bring things into captivity and they will do all kinds of wierd things. My dog (a female mind you) mounted and tried to mate with a chewbaca doll.

Which def. you choose is up to you, but it does change what you want to call a hybrid. After all two species that can produce fertile offspring and not species different species under the biological species concept but may be true species under the other defs.

Biologists are clickey in which def. they choose and there is no consensus on which is "true". They probably all are.

Hope this is useful info.

Vinny
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“There is a grandeur in this view of life, with its several powers, having been originally breathed into a few forms or into one; and that whilst this planet has gone on cycling according to the fixed laws of gravity, from so simple a beginning endless forms most beautiful and most wonderful have been, and are being, evolved.” -C. Darwin, 1859

Let me know if you get a clutch out of your dog and Chewbacca...I'm interested.

Hybrid rules do not apply to the plant kingdom. Many orchid breeders regularly cross different genera (i.e. Cattleya and Laelia) and their offspring produce viable seeds. Crossing different species also works; try planting some of those tangelo seeds and see if they grow.
Although they don't offer any references, I found this dictionary definition online that says Beefaloes (cattle X bison: from different genera) are fertile and that there was a fertile cross between an albino king snake and an albino corn snake.

http://www.forumnow.com/comfort-bikes/hybrids/

"Personally, I think its already happened, and will be proven in short order. "

If that were true, it would have been given much attention by the person doing it, and we would know about it. The same gene system that allow color variations and the ability to crossbreed also control skeletal deformities and internal organ makeup. It's not just color morphs. Nature has a way of not allowing the defects to propagate. Look how close we are to the great ape family. Any crosses? No. King and corn crosses are minor events in the course of nature.

Until we see a certain cross happen, consider it impossible. I wouldn't challenge the professor's obvious wellspring of learning until I have the same level of knowledge. To say that he knows nothing simply because he may or may not have bred the animals is simply wrong.
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1.1 Blackheaded pythons
1.1 Woma (Juvie female)
2.1 Aussie Olives
1.1 Timors
1.0 Angolan Juvie
1.1 Savu
1.1 Juvie Bloods
1.1 Juvie Balls
1.1 IJ Carpets
1.1 Coastal Carpets
1.2 Macklotts
1.1 Papuan Olives
0.1 Jungle Carpet
2.2 Scrubs (on breeding loan)
1.0 Jungle/Diamond cross
0.1 child, CB
0.1 wife, WC

Well, according to that site certain hybrids can produce fertile offspring if the number of chromosomes is the same and they are closely related enough. Here is the explanation from that site you posted the link to:

"==Interspecific hybrids==
Interspecific hybrids are bred by mating two species, normally from within the same genus. The offspring display traits characterisitc of both parents. The offspring of an interspecific cross may be sterile. Sterility is attributed to the different number of chromosomes the two species have, for example donkeys have 62 chromosomes, while horses have 64, mules have 63. Mules and other sterile interspecific hybrids cannot produce viable gametes because the extra chromosome cannot make a homologous pair at meiosis, meiosis is disrupted and viable sperm and eggs are not formed. "

I dont know what to think anymore... I got myself in over my head

It seems that certain species are compatible and others are not. Time will eventually tell which pairs of different species can be inter-bred without negative consequences.

-Joe

Joe...you're right abut the last part. It can't be done until someone does it

"They state;” We have a nice fertile clutch of Carplott (Macklott X Carpet) bred to a Nice Yellow Jungle Carpet hatching now."

Now if Kevin can say he's got Carplotts producing fertile young after being bred to other Carplotts...then THAT would be interesting.
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1.1 Blackheaded pythons
1.1 Woma (Juvie female)
2.1 Aussie Olives
1.1 Timors
1.0 Angolan Juvie
1.1 Savu
1.1 Juvie Bloods
1.1 Juvie Balls
1.1 IJ Carpets
1.1 Coastal Carpets
1.2 Macklotts
1.1 Papuan Olives
0.1 Jungle Carpet
2.2 Scrubs (on breeding loan)
1.0 Jungle/Diamond cross
0.1 child, CB
0.1 wife, WC

Like I said, " I don't know what to think anymore"!

I do like the way you think though, Jaykis...

Something tells me you'll never get duped into buying something that turns out to be a dead-end project. You've got to question everything!

"You've got to question everything!"

That's what I've taught my 19 year old daughter. Even question what I say....lol.

To a point
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1.1 Blackheaded pythons
1.1 Woma (Juvie female)
2.1 Aussie Olives
1.1 Timors
1.0 Angolan Juvie
1.1 Savu
1.1 Juvie Bloods
1.1 Juvie Balls
1.1 IJ Carpets
1.1 Coastal Carpets
1.2 Macklotts
1.1 Papuan Olives
0.1 Jungle Carpet
2.2 Scrubs (on breeding loan)
1.0 Jungle/Diamond cross
0.1 child, CB
0.1 wife, WC

You made it through her teenage years! Congrats!

My daughter is just 9 months old. If she is anything like her daddy she will grow up to be a skeptical, deep-thinking fireball who can see through bullsh#t like glass. She wont believe in ghosts, Bigfoot, or psychics.

Now, if I can just keep her away from those damn boys!!!

How is your female IJ doing?? I'll be keepin my fingers crossed for you. 1 week till i start cooling mine.

- Joe

Joe... randi.org My hero, lol

As to daughter...Dual major in Environmental Science and Marine Biology, Honors program. Wants to minor in Anthropolgy. Sophomore in college, now. Did her internship at the National Aquarium in Balto with Poison Dart frogs last summer. Had mono spring semester last year and did a 4.0 in 5 classes. Not sure how she did that.

I remember when she was 9 mos old....I think it was yesterday
-----
1.1 Blackheaded pythons
1.1 Woma (Juvie female)
2.1 Aussie Olives
1.1 Timors
1.0 Angolan Juvie
1.1 Savu
1.1 Juvie Bloods
1.1 Juvie Balls
1.1 IJ Carpets
1.1 Coastal Carpets
1.2 Macklotts
1.1 Papuan Olives
0.1 Jungle Carpet
2.2 Scrubs (on breeding loan)
1.0 Jungle/Diamond cross
0.1 child, CB
0.1 wife, WC

yes, this topic is over most everyone's head. genetics is a topic that people are just beginning to understand. i am a college student taking courses on genetics, evolution, and other biology, and from what i have learned, hybrids occur between animals of the same or different genus. what defines a species? couldn't all pythons be the same species, just radiations of different color patterns, behavior, and other morphological differences? many prestigous scientists can't agree on an answer for that question even today. regarding the number of chromosomes, it is true that animals with the same number of chromosomes do have a better chance of producing a viable offspring, but the chances of the chromosomes matching up with the other to complete the gene for say color or an organ formation is also slim, which would further decrease the chances of producing a viable offspring. however, it can and does occur. today, the type of wheat used to make bread is a hybrid called "bread wheat" and comes from several parent strains of wild wheat that all have a different number of chromosomes, but through selective breeding man has been able to produce a fertile hybrid strain that exhibits the characteristics man desires. so in conclusion, hybrids can be fertile, but in vertebrates it is harder to maintain individuals that are capable of reproduction because there is a smaller population to work with when compared to something like wheat, and the rate of reproduction is slower than a plant. just thought i'd share my 2 cents.

Yasser summed this up perfectly. I have a few things I'd like to add as well.

1. If you're looking for hybrid sellers to put a disclaimer of sorts on every hybrid they offer for sale, it's not going to happen.

First, there are no fertility guarantees with any reptile...if someone ever buys a reptile with the impression that it will definitely breed, they have some learning to do.

Secondly, anyone spending thousands of dollars for a hybrid python will have already done their homework on this subject. If they're inexperienced enough to buy a hybrid python and think it's a solid investment, they probably don't stand much of a chance at breeding anything, hybrid or otherwise.

2. If you're looking for a respectable breeder to come out and definitively say that hybrids won't breed (when nobody knows that for sure), you shouldn't hold your breath either.

I don't think any respectable breeder is that brave. Remember...this time last year, everyone just knew that pythons from the Morelia and Aspidites genera could not reproduce.

3. No respectable breeder selling hybrids claims anything about their investment potential, so why assume anything?

Reptiles are expensive because of the supply vs. demand for that particular type of snake...but demand can be relatively high for a variety of reasons.

There is a high demand (in relation to supply) for hybrid pythons, but unlike python morphs, the demand is due to their rarity and the fact that it takes some work, experience and even a little luck to produce them. By contrast, the prices of python morphs are high because they're rare at the moment and because of the potential return on investment when breeding them.

4. I think we'll all soon learn that hybrid pythons are physically capable of reproducing, but it may take some husbandry techniques that we haven't ironed out just yet. Herpetoculture is advancing nicely, though. Twenty years ago, most herpers had a hard enough time keeping reptiles alive, let alone breeding them.

-Anthony

>>Lately there have been many hybrid snakes available from a diverse range of species. Some breeders even specialize in hybrid animals, charging thousands of dollars them. In fact, there is a Burmese/Rock cross posted on this sites' classifieds selling for "100,000.00 Firm" right now! It was this advertisement that drove me to uncover the truth about hybrids.
>>
>>I have spent the last several weeks researching the topic of hybrid FERTILITY. Asking the question; "Are the offspring of parents belonging to 2 separate species capable of producing babies of their own"? I have sent out several emails to well-known hybrid breeders asking if any one of their hybrids ever actually produced young. Also, if the snakes they were selling were intended to be used as breeders. Perhaps not surprisingly no emails have been returned as of yet.
>>
>>I also read many online publishing about all kinds of cross-species breeding. Plants, fruitflys, mammals, and of course snakes.
>>
>>Anyone can type "snake hybrid" into Google and find many studies published by universities regarding inter-species breeding.
>>
>>Here is a exerpt from "The Origin of Species":
>>
>>B. B.     Post zygotic Barriers: In the event fertilization does occur, post zygotic barriers prevent the hybrid zygote from developing into a viable, fertile adult.
>> 
>>1. 1.      Reduced Hybrid Viability: Genetic incompatibility between two species may abort development of the hybrid at some embryonic stage.
>>2. 2.      Reduced Hybrid Fertility: If two species mate and produce hybrid offspring that are viable, reproductive isolation is intact if the hybrids are sterile because genes cannot flow from one species gene pool to the other.
>>3. 3.      Hybrid Breakdown: When some species cross-mate, the first generation hybrids are viable and fertile, but these hybrids mate with one another or with either parent species, offspring of the next generation are feeble or sterile.
>> 
>> 
>>Here is the full text published online:  
>>http://www.tnstate.edu/library/reserves/bioemch24.pdf#search='hybrid fertility 24'
>>
>>I found that in EXTREMELY rare situations, two animals of different, but very closely-related species can produce reproductively viable offspring. However, it almost never happens.
>>
>>The one and only credible example of a hybrid producing babies I could find was a well-known (you know the name) python breeder in the US. I spoke with him on the phone briefly and he told me that his male retic/burmese cross once mated with a female parent type and fertilized every egg in the clutch.
>>However, he also said that it produced infertile clutches each of the 5 years before and never again after that one time. He told me that if you get a hybrid to "assume it was sterile" and not plan to incorporate it into a breeding project. This man has many hybrids an none have ever produced for him.
>>
>>Hybrids are often beautiful and interesting animals, that are sometimes healthy. I believe there is nothing wrong with producing hybrids. However, I do question the very high prices of some of these animals and the also the way they are presented to the consumer. They should be looked at as a pet or novelty. Don't want to hear that? Prove me wrong.
>>
>>So, would you pay 100,000.00 dollars for a rock/burmese cross when you could get either a rock or burmese for a 100?
>>
>>
>>- Joe
-----
----------------------------------
Anthony Caponetto
www.ACreptiles.com

First of all, your first 3 points all have to do with whether or not its up to the hybrid breeder to inform the customer about the potential for infertility. Obviously you believe that its "buyer beware".

"3. No respectable breeder selling hybrids claims anything about their investment potential, so why assume anything?"

If thats true (which it isnt), then there are no respectable breeders of hybrids in my opinion. Both NERD and High End Herps (just to name a couple) have recently been selling carpondros, junglots, and rock/burmese crosses as "ground floor projects" and "breeders for chondro or carpet projects". This isnt a claim regarding their investment potential???

I feel that a hybrid breeder who knows that the vast majority of python hybrids are infertile should pass that knowledge on the the buyer. Just my opinion.

The last point you made I really really disagree with:

"4. I think we'll all soon learn that hybrid pythons are physically capable of reproducing, but it may take some husbandry techniques that we haven't ironed out just yet. Herpetoculture is advancing nicely, though. Twenty years ago, most herpers had a hard enough time keeping reptiles alive, let alone breeding them."

Are you suggesting that the fertility of python hybrids can be influenced by husbandry techniques???? Does your husbandry involve changing the number of chromosomes in one of the parents to match the other before they mate???

If you have so much confidence in hybrid python fertility, why have you not mixed chondros or macklotts into your jaguar or IJ breeding projects? I would think a jag carpondro would be amazing! Sterile, but amazing.

- Joe

"I think we'll all soon learn that hybrid pythons are physically capable of reproducing,"

A wish, but not necessarily a reality. Why should pythons be any different than other animals. Until it's done....it ain't possible. I'm open to seeing pics of fertile offspring from crosses....I just haven't seen any from pythons.

Someone crossed an Aspidites w/Morelia? Did it have heat pits?
-----
1.1 Blackheaded pythons
1.1 Woma (Juvie female)
2.1 Aussie Olives
1.1 Timors
1.0 Angolan Juvie
1.1 Savu
1.1 Juvie Bloods
1.1 Juvie Balls
1.1 IJ Carpets
1.1 Coastal Carpets
1.2 Macklotts
1.1 Papuan Olives
1.0 Jungle Carpet
2.2 Scrubs (on breeding loan)
0.1 Jungle/Diamond cross
0.1 child, CB
0.1 wife, WC

Several hybrid pythons have reproduced. You guys should do your homework before you go arguing about it.

And yes, if you do a little looking on the hybrid forum and you can see a Woma x Carpet.

-Anthony

>>"I think we'll all soon learn that hybrid pythons are physically capable of reproducing,"
>>
>> A wish, but not necessarily a reality. Why should pythons be any different than other animals. Until it's done....it ain't possible. I'm open to seeing pics of fertile offspring from crosses....I just haven't seen any from pythons.
>>
>> Someone crossed an Aspidites w/Morelia? Did it have heat pits?
>>-----
>>1.1 Blackheaded pythons
>>1.1 Woma (Juvie female)
>>2.1 Aussie Olives
>>1.1 Timors
>>1.0 Angolan Juvie
>>1.1 Savu
>>1.1 Juvie Bloods
>>1.1 Juvie Balls
>>1.1 IJ Carpets
>>1.1 Coastal Carpets
>>1.2 Macklotts
>>1.1 Papuan Olives
>>1.0 Jungle Carpet
>>2.2 Scrubs (on breeding loan)
>>0.1 Jungle/Diamond cross
>>0.1 child, CB
>>0.1 wife, WC
-----
----------------------------------
Anthony Caponetto
www.ACreptiles.com

I know of a carpondro to carpondro breeding Here in South Florida from a "hobbiest". I have seen the offspring. When I asked when he would go "public" with this breeding info I was told not until he offspring were breed to each other, insuring that they are indeed fertile and not just a "fluke breeding".

He is also a geneticist at a local university.

"I know of a carpondro to carpondro breeding Here in South Florida from a "hobbiest". I have seen the offspring. When I asked when he would go "public" with this breeding info I was told not until he offspring were breed to each other, insuring that they are indeed fertile and not just a "fluke breeding". "

I'm confused here....you say the carpondro to carpondros hatched and you've seen them? In that case the offspring would not have to be bred to each other... they were already fertile. No one else, to my knowledge, has done that. I'd be taking pics and posting them.....just to prove I did it.
-----
1.1 Blackheaded pythons
1.1 Woma (Juvie female)
2.1 Aussie Olives
1.1 Timors
1.0 Angolan Juvie
1.1 Savu
1.1 Juvie Bloods
1.1 Juvie Balls
1.1 IJ Carpets
1.1 Coastal Carpets
1.2 Macklotts
1.1 Papuan Olives
1.0 Jungle Carpet
2.2 Scrubs (on breeding loan)
0.1 Jungle/Diamond cross
0.1 child, CB
0.1 wife, WC

He feels that there simply isn't enough "proof" of anything. He has been working with carpondros since an original breeding of a coastal female and greentree male. One of the offsring from this pairing.....bred back to the female a few years ago and then last year he had a successful clutch of carpondros from the same male and a carpondro from the female coastal and carpondro male pairing.
He seems to believe that being fertile could prove to be a percentage.........say 1 or 2 out of 100.
He has been working with them and only has had the one male produce anything for him. Says the experiment will not prove anything until all offspring are breeding successfully.

If breeders are claiming they're a great investment, they shouldn't. I can't look at advertisments all day, so I'm not sure what every single one of them are saying, but the point is that anyone spending thousands of dollars on a python hybrid isn't going to be a newbie, completely ignorant of the risks involved. Bottom line, people who spend thousands of dollars on animals tend to do their homework.

As far as the husbandry part goes, I'd say you're probably a little too wet behind the ears to be having this conversation if you don't know what the word husbandry means.

No offense, but come back and read this thread when you don't already know everything and you might learn a little something.

-Anthony

>>First of all, your first 3 points all have to do with whether or not its up to the hybrid breeder to inform the customer about the potential for infertility. Obviously you believe that
its "buyer beware".
>>
>>"3. No respectable breeder selling hybrids claims anything about their investment potential, so why assume anything?"
>>
>>If thats true (which it isnt), then there are no respectable breeders of hybrids in my opinion. Both NERD and High End Herps (just to name a couple) have recently been selling carpondros, junglots, and rock/burmese crosses as "ground floor projects" and "breeders for chondro or carpet projects". This isnt a claim regarding their investment potential???
>>
>>I feel that a hybrid breeder who knows that the vast majority of python hybrids are infertile should pass that knowledge on the the buyer. Just my opinion.
>>
>>The last point you made I really really disagree with:
>>
>>"4. I think we'll all soon learn that hybrid pythons are physically capable of reproducing, but it may take some husbandry techniques that we haven't ironed out just yet. Herpetoculture is advancing nicely, though. Twenty years ago, most herpers had a hard enough time keeping reptiles alive, let alone breeding them."
>>
>>Are you suggesting that the fertility of python hybrids can be influenced by husbandry techniques???? Does your husbandry involve changing the number of chromosomes in one of the parents to match the other before they mate???
>>
>>If you have so much confidence in hybrid python fertility, why have you not mixed chondros or macklotts into your jaguar or IJ breeding projects? I would think a jag carpondro would be amazing! Sterile, but amazing.
>>
>>- Joe
-----
----------------------------------
Anthony Caponetto
www.ACreptiles.com

There's no need for the insults. Im have admitted several times that I have no experience with hybrids and that I just want to get to the bottom of this debate to satisfy my curiosity. I never said that we cant mate 2 different species and get fertile offspring, only that if we can, we must re-classify them.

Also, I looked up the definition for "animal husbandry" on the Websters Online Dictionary BEFORE i posted my original response and it said

"b : the scientific control and management of a branch of farming and especially of domestic animals"

My definition for herps is basically "care and propogation". So why dont YOU tell me what husbandry means so that I "might learn a little something".

-Joe

"Several hybrid pythons have reproduced. You guys should do your homework before you go arguing about it."

You should read the whole thread. It wasn't about producing hybrids...it was about whether or not the offspring were fertile "with each other".

And not all of us are "wet behind the ears". I've been keeping herps for 50 years. How many on this board were alive then?
-----
1.1 Blackheaded pythons
1.1 Woma (Juvie female)
2.1 Aussie Olives
1.1 Timors
1.0 Angolan Juvie
1.1 Savu
1.1 Juvie Bloods
1.1 Juvie Balls
1.1 IJ Carpets
1.1 Coastal Carpets
1.2 Macklotts
1.1 Papuan Olives
1.0 Jungle Carpet
2.2 Scrubs (on breeding loan)
0.1 Jungle/Diamond cross
0.1 child, CB
0.1 wife, WC

And could someone please direct me to a pic or link of a Woma/Carpet cross? Nothing on the hybrid forum about it except for vague references. I did find an amusing reference to a "Woma Ball Python", which is simply a BP color variation.
-----
1.1 Blackheaded pythons
1.1 Woma (Juvie female)
2.1 Aussie Olives
1.1 Timors
1.0 Angolan Juvie
1.1 Savu
1.1 Juvie Bloods
1.1 Juvie Balls
1.1 IJ Carpets
1.1 Coastal Carpets
1.2 Macklotts
1.1 Papuan Olives
1.0 Jungle Carpet
2.2 Scrubs (on breeding loan)
0.1 Jungle/Diamond cross
0.1 child, CB
0.1 wife, WC

What do you say we kill this here thread, huh?????

We have lost sight of my original posting (which i very much regret putting out there as one of my first contributions on the forum) and we're starting to get pissed at eachother.

Lets just move on to something else like, "has a carpet ever killed a person?" or "whats the most eggs scrub python has ever laid"... I dont care anything but this hybrid stuff.

Lets just agree that time will tell all and everyday stuff is happening that we never would have thought possible 10 yrs ago. Inevitably some species will prove reproductively compatible and others will not. One thing is for sure... the taxonomy of pythons has not reached its final conclusion. There are bound to be some changes made.

Thanks for all your imput, guys. I learned a lot about hybrids from this thread. I also learned to ask questions, rather than make statements when you don't know what it is your talking about.

I think I'll take a break from this forum for a while. Talk to you guys later and good luck with all your breeding this season!

- Joe

I did read the thread. I'm not exactly sure why this hasn't been addressed yet, but there is no such thing as being "fertile with eachother." If a hybrid python can produce viable sperm or eggs (which we know some of them can) it is fertile...the species of the python that it copulates has nothing to do with that. That being said, whether or not they will copulate with eachother is another story.

Too many people, especially ones who are new to breeding, look for a recipe to breed reptiles. Then when it doesn't work, they look for something to blame...preferably something they have no control of. In other words, instead of being open-minded and trying to think of new things to try, it's easier to blame it on the snakes being infertile.

I'm not trying to say that I have all (or even any of) the answers here, but I think that more attempts must be made before hybrid pythons are written off as mules, which is exactly what Joe wants to do. Anything less and we would be kidding ourselves.

-Anthony

>>"Several hybrid pythons have reproduced. You guys should do your homework before you go arguing about it."
>>
>>You should read the whole thread. It wasn't about producing hybrids...it was about whether or not the offspring were fertile "with each other".
>>
>> And not all of us are "wet behind the ears". I've been keeping herps for 50 years. How many on this board were alive then?
>>-----
>>1.1 Blackheaded pythons
>>1.1 Woma (Juvie female)
>>2.1 Aussie Olives
>>1.1 Timors
>>1.0 Angolan Juvie
>>1.1 Savu
>>1.1 Juvie Bloods
>>1.1 Juvie Balls
>>1.1 IJ Carpets
>>1.1 Coastal Carpets
>>1.2 Macklotts
>>1.1 Papuan Olives
>>1.0 Jungle Carpet
>>2.2 Scrubs (on breeding loan)
>>0.1 Jungle/Diamond cross
>>0.1 child, CB
>>0.1 wife, WC
-----
----------------------------------
Anthony Caponetto
www.ACreptiles.com

Husbandry....
1 archaic : the care of a household
2 : the control or judicious use of resources : CONSERVATION
3 a : the cultivation or production of plants and animals :
AGRICULTURE b : the scientific control and management of a branch of farming and especially of domestic animals

You skipped right to the last part of the definition then I guess...

3a sums it up better.....Here's my interpretaion."Husbandry" = the techniques or practices used by people who have "control" of a plant or animals living conditions. For example, to get more eggs from my laying hens I can adjust the amount of artificial light in the winter to match the amount of daylight a bird would experience in the spring of the year (which is when they would naturally produce). If I did't make the adjustmant they would stop laying...not because old Percy's gone "infertile" or "sterile" on me...(and with out a rooster, yes, they are infertile eggs)
To get certain snakes to breed successfully there may be something we have control over that needs to be adjusted like heat,light cycle,the amount of space we afford them,feeding increments and so on...these would be "husbandry techniques"...many animals only do well in captivity when husbandry is dialed in to closely match "natural" conditions that the animal would experience in the wild...Mollucan pythons are not hybrids and many will confirm that breeding them is considered very difficult to say the least because the exact "husbandy" techniques are still being sorted out.It's obviously not because they are "sterile"...they reproduce in the wild right?
I guess I'm just reiterating a point that a couple of others have already made here...just because people might not have successfully produced "fertile" Carpondro eggs dosen't necessarily mean they are "sterile" animals(not pyhsically capable of reproducing). There is more to it than biology.Which brings me back to another good point that was made in this thread a bit earlier on about the field of science and the fact that there are alot of assumptions being made that are rather routinely proved to be incorrect...many "experts" were sure the Woma/Carpet thing wouldn't have worked from a scientific perspective...they're too different right? I've seen one of those myself...
How about the medical community(who are guided by science)at one point saying "nearly all cholesterol is bad".."no it isn't"..."yes it is"..."no butter"..."say no to eggs"..."say yes to eggs"...now margirine is out?? And so on. Sure there are many black and white scientific facts like gravity and other physics but in many areas the "rules" are a bit more dicey and in some cases the definitions are in a state of flux...

I'm certainly not an expert on this but I believe the jury is still out on hybrid fertillity. Unless someone has dissected several Carpondros from different lines and found there to be a consistant lack of reproductive organs?? LOL Otherwise it sounds to me like none of us knows for sure...yet.
-----
JOHN H in NH

"To get certain snakes to breed successfully there may be something we have control over that needs to be adjusted like heat,light cycle"

You forgot the rain cycle. It can be critical in certain species, along with barometric changes. When hurricane Isobel came through here a couple years ago, a friend of mine had just about everything copulating from the rain and low pressure...and it was too early for normal breeding.

As to fertile Carpondros and other hybrids breeding to themselves...when it's done, I'll believe it. Call me a sceptic
-----
1.1 Blackheaded pythons
1.1 Woma (Juvie female)
2.1 Aussie Olives
1.1 Timors
1.0 Angolan Juvie
1.1 Savu
1.1 Juvie Bloods
1.1 Juvie Balls
1.1 IJ Carpets
1.1 Coastal Carpets
1.2 Macklotts
1.1 Papuan Olives
1.0 Jungle Carpet
2.2 Scrubs (on breeding loan)
0.1 Jungle/Diamond cross
0.1 child, CB
0.1 wife, WC

Joe,

My comment wasn't meant to be an insult. I should have taken more time to word that post. I was basically trying to say that with reptiles in general, the more we think we know, the less we really do. Considering how many times science was proven wrong about hybrids just this past year, we all need to remain patient and open minded when looking for that big answer about the fertility of hybrids.

I have friends who have produced many python hybrids (including some that haven't been made public yet) and from what I've heard and seen, I'm leaning toward the belief that many hybrids are fertile (physically capable of producing viable sperm or eggs), but that getting them to copulate with eachother is the main obstacle. That's why I mentioned the possible need or new husbandry techniques...by that, I was referring to the manipulation of environmental stimuli, etc.

-Anthony

>There's no need for the insults. Im have admitted several times that I have no experience with hybrids and that I just want to get to the bottom of this debate to satisfy my curiosity. I never said that we cant mate 2 different species and get fertile offspring, only that if we can, we must re-classify them.
>>
>>Also, I looked up the definition for "animal husbandry" on the Websters Online Dictionary BEFORE i posted my original response and it said
>>
>>"b : the scientific control and management of a branch of farming and especially of domestic animals"
>>
>>My definition for herps is basically "care and propogation". So why dont YOU tell me what husbandry means so that I "might learn a little something".
>>
>>
>>-Joe
-----
----------------------------------
Anthony Caponetto
www.ACreptiles.com

"but that getting them to copulate with eachother is the main obstacle."

I assume that somewhere down the line artificial insemination will be the norm. I can't see keeping a Woma and a Carpet in the same cage for too long before someone becomes lunch.
As to the the possibility of hybrid offspring being fertile, here's a bit of a communication I had the other day with Dave Barker.

"I do not know of any carpondros that have been bred. Tracy and I bred
childreni and maculosa together at the request of a prof in Australia
who was researching the natural hybrids. The first cross was easy, but
the resulting offspring were infertile with each other and with the
parental species."
-----
1.1 Blackheaded pythons
1.1 Woma (Juvie female)
2.1 Aussie Olives
1.1 Timors
1.0 Angolan Juvie
1.1 Savu
1.1 Juvie Bloods
1.1 Juvie Balls
1.1 IJ Carpets
1.1 Coastal Carpets
1.2 Macklotts
1.1 Papuan Olives
1.0 Jungle Carpet
2.2 Scrubs (on breeding loan)
0.1 Jungle/Diamond cross
0.1 child, CB
0.1 wife, WC

Thats the north american pine/rat/kings. These are cross-genus hybrids.