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I was just curious to see if any of you haven't been sucked into the morph market and still work with natural phases of brooksi that are het for absolutely nothing. Like Lyn Krysko's old line of school bus yellows or just plain old yellow phase brooksi.

NOTE: I am not against morphs in any way. This is not meant to degrade their value. I work with them too.

Mark Kenderdine has some nice no hets. I sold my adults this year and picked up some new no het hatchlings ( fresh start with new blood)including some of Mark's. So until these mature I am nothing but a morph dog.
daveb

I got one from Mark Lucas last year, but I suspect it is het Hypo. I may just prove that next year. Let me tell you I was in South Florida for 8 weeks last year and I went too numerous stores and a show and people looked at me like I was nuts when I asked for Brooksi. It seems to be normal "Brooksi" much more so resemble normal Floridana....more brown than yellow. If you find any let me know Tom Stevens

Well, I made a huge mistake by selling my pair from Len K. Ever since then I have regreted it terribly. I sure wish I could find some more yellow phase that looked nice.

There are a few out there.. Some of Len's animals like the school bus yellows were from areas other than south FL. I believe...like Tampa. So the "purists" would maybe not be receptive to some of those. Georgeous animals however. Some do not have the high band count either though, and if you recall, every king from extreme s. FL did not always either...
I know Dick Bartlett and I were both looking for some that could be traced back to s.FL animals. Funny thing is, we both landed at the same place. Peter Lindsey in LA. His are from "canal" stock and seem to become the very pale looking adults--like you may be thinking of.
I have a few others that are from s.FL stock and are het for absolutely nothing as well. I have morphs for sure and really do like them all, but I do not mix any of the lines that have those traits with the "pure" ones.
:Mark
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Surrender Dorothy!

www.crimsonking.funtigo.com

first, one of mine....

then a pair I got from Peter:


and here's a pic of a 2 yr old (I think)from P.Lindsey's ad on another site...

The ones with the higher band count must be really very nice,huh?
:Mark
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Surrender Dorothy!

www.crimsonking.funtigo.com

Those look very nice! I remember when I recieved mine from Len they were both quite light even as hatchlings. They were brownish and yellow at a very small age, and they developed into very bright adults with very smudgy high band counts. I think they both had band counts in the 90's?????? I'll try to dig up some pics. To me they looked better than most hypos, except they had slight traces of black. And I haven't seen any available since Len quit working with them.

I have some killer south florida locale but they are het for things. I am going to sell them as normals because they are males and lone het males don't do anyone any good anyway.

I don't quite understand your reasoning of have a het nothing? Those normal "hets" I have will turn out super yellow. WHats the difference between a het nothing and a het besides price? If its a nice light speckled phenotype it should not matter. Mine are not inbred because they are double het males I am going to post on the classifieds soon. I am not going to disclose what they are double het for because I am selling them as nice normal s. floridas.

Don't you think you should disclose the info on them?? I mean, what if someone unwittingly pops out a "morph" from breeding them to another in the future?? He will be (possibly wrongfully) elated and/or pissed that what he has had all along was NOT what he thought he had bought in the first place.
And if HE does not produce any "morphs" from breedings there is certainly a chance he could sell his babies (as NORMALS)and the next guy may get a "morph". Now, believing he has normals, he might think that he has stumbled onto the one in a million chance that nature had bestowed upon him a new, unadulterated (read new line)"morph" and also think they are worth much dinero and try to sell them as such.
That's a lot of unnecessary typing already so I think you see what I am getting at??
Help me out here.
:Mark
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Surrender Dorothy!

www.crimsonking.funtigo.com

Mark

I am really not sure what you are getting at. My double hets that I will be selling are from bonafied s.florida locale. The lines have not been outbred AT ALL. That is as pure as anything you can get. I ahve been working with some of these lines for a long time and know their history and where they originated from. The fact they are DH's makes them even better because there is no inbreeding and they are unrelated lines. Nice fresh stock that is pure as the snow.

As far as what they are het for I am not giving any details. It would not be fair to customers who paid 12x the amount. Of course i will tell them they came from DH projects.

Blurosy, I wasn't trying to make any point, nor do I have any reasoning behind it. I'm just curious to see if there are ANY lines out there that can be traced back to wild caught adults that have not been bred to any designers. In other words, If I buy a pair of yellow phase south florida kings, and that is the appearance I am shooting for in the offspring they will produce I DO NOT want double hets or any hets for that matter. I agree they will look just as nice, but my interest and goal is not in producing snows, hypos, axanthics, and the like. I just want pure het for nothing but wild type south florida kings. Plain and simple.

You know there are some people, although very few, that still appreciate the natural appearance of a species, and not what we have created through genetic abnormalities.

Posted by: mattbrock at Thu Nov 3 23:30:50 2005 [ Report Abuse ] [ Email Message ]

You know there are some people, although very few, that still appreciate the natural appearance of a species, and not what we have created through genetic abnormalities

My DH's can be traced back to wildcaught snakes and NEW never before bred DH's hets are not an abnormality or aberrancy. I am also not selling any females so by breeding a nice male to another female s. fl brooksi I don't see the harm. You would have to go generations before anything might pop up. Then you would also have to inbreed (backbreed), which to me seems contracditory to your wants.

IMO many of the wildtypes have reccessive traits floating around in them. The thing is most people don't breed two unrelated wc snakes and hold onto ALL the female offspring to breed back to the father and breed a son back to the mother. If one does this I am sure that 90% of the time you will see new or old recessive traits pop up. It just a conclusion I have come up with after being around breeding herps for 35 years.

Do you happen to have pics of the snakes you are referring to? Not necesserily the hatchlings, but the adults used to produce the double hets.

Do you happen to have pics of the snakes you are referring to? Not necesserily the hatchlings, but the adults used to produce the double hets

LOL! If I showed you the parents I would be disclosing what the males I am selling are double hets for. Then I would have to charge 12x price for a lone male. I have customers who paid $600. each for these animals. Do you think I should turn around an sell them for $50 to someone else? By not disclosing what they are double het for I am protecting everyones investment.

I don't know exactly where, but there's a fly in the ointment somewhere Rainer.
Protecting everyone's investment??
I was just saying I hate surprises I guess.
:Mark
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Surrender Dorothy!

www.crimsonking.funtigo.com

Well, all brooksi are not created equal. With that in mind....if your offspring are double hets coming from two different morphs then how do you know if they are the yellow phase I'm looking for, or just average run of the mill brownish tan brooksi. I would have to see what they are capable of maturing into long before I would choose to purchase hets. That is why I want to find some that can be traced back to the canal yellows with absolutely no influence from the morph market. I know all of the morphs originated from wild stock way back when, but I don't like surprises, just as has already been stated.

these are from the canal yellow stock you are referring to.

I used to seek after the yellowest brooksi before the hypos hit the market. I have searched high and low and was adept at picking the best baies out of a clutch. I am no newbie to this. I had some of the best normal yellows anyone has seen. Just ask someone who was around at that time.

Wow I cant believe you would do this. It just goes to my hybrid theory on you. You dont care about anything but your bottom line. You originally said you wouldnt disclose these are het for anything then when Mark called you on it you said you would say they are from 2het breedings lol. This is a sad commentary on the herp market and why I dont deal in snakes that have lots of mutations. You really cant trust anybody these days and your a case in point.

Keith
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Keith

It seems like the only time you show up anymore is to discredit someone or stir the pot.

Just so that someone else is not able to READ and/or someone does not get the wrong idea.. I never said i would not disclose that they are hets. I just said I would not diclose what traits are in them.

HUH ? Show me where you said that ?

have some killer south florida locale but they are het for things. I am going to sell them as normals because they are males and lone het males don't do anyone any good anyway.

I don't quite understand your reasoning of have a het nothing? Those normal "hets" I have will turn out super yellow. WHats the difference between a het nothing and a het besides price? If its a nice light speckled phenotype it should not matter. Mine are not inbred because they are double het males I am going to post on the classifieds soon. I am not going to disclose what they are double het for because I am selling them as nice normal s. floridas.

In the second sentence you state you are going to sell them as "normals" if you were going to sell them as hets why not say that ? You have revealed yourself Rainer. Its why I dont breed snakes for money it makes you do things that go to the "bottom line" which is "$" at whatever cost.

Keith
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LOL! Your tactics are ruining you.

I sold unknown hets last year and the years before. I always posted on the ad they were unknown hets. I think last year I called them mystery brooksi. Right now I am sitting on a bunch of them . Some are south florida locale and some are not. Some are pretty canal stock and some are normal florida kings. The point of my post was why differentiate because something is double het if it is locale specific. The het gene does nothing to the way the original animal looks. Mine are not even selectivly inbred for color. Can't get much more pure than that.

Yeah Im being ruined lol. Why do you plan on spreading rumors about me like you did Sean ?

As long as you represent the snakes as hets thats fine but that not what you said you would do. Im not even arguing that they are pure Brooksi or not I dont care what they are only that they are represented honestly.

Keith
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Yeah, I have a breeding pair of giants: Two large males & a large female. All are wild caughts. The males are both 5.5' and the female is close to 5' and they're still growing! Here are the males: The dark male (with an almost double chain link pattern on his sides). The lighter one is pictured below.

Zee

Man, I really like that dark male--cool looking snake!

N/m