Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I'll be moving to a province in 2 years for vet school. It allows crocodilians!

A quick background- I've kept reptiles for over 15 years. A large variety of snakes, lizards and amphibians. I'm an animal health technologist of 5 years, so the herp health aspect is all covered. All in all I'm a herp nut!

Now, for the croc's. A good first croc would be a dwarf caiman? Alligator's?... The reason I ask is I know what I want, don't have hands on experience yet, and don't want the very long term responsibility of all the animals needed to "work up" to owning a large croc. I want a Nile crocodile.

A young nile crocodile takes how long to grow, and would this account for enough time to learn and get accustomed to working with crocodilians before you have a large dangerous animal. As I said, I don't want to keep a dwarf caiman for 50 years so I can gain experience for the croc I admire. I don't believe in disposable herps.

I do have a reptile zoo that I have done some apprentice work with, and I could return for more croc experience. I have worked with

Hi Ian,

Here is my recommendation. I would seriously not start out with a Nile Croc. They grown on average about a foot per year, they require large amounts of room and if you live up north they are not practical at all to house as an adult. If you live in a climate (Florida or Texas) that would allow outdoor housing year round then this is a big feather in your cap. A Nile Crocodile is not a beginning croc. They are very aggressive. If you have a reptile zoo that you live near that has one or an animal similar to it, that you could work with as an adult....then go for it! Get as much experience as you can before bringing that animal home. Understand that every animals temperament is different. Be prepared for an animal that is quick to bite, does not like handling, requires lots of space to house properly. I know you say that you dont believe in disposable animals and I understand that. Personally, I would recommend getting an alligator before obtaining a Nile Croc. At least this way you will have experience with moving and safely handling the animal without losing a limb. Do you have someone who can help you move the animals when necessary? Do you haves someone with croc experience that can help you properly restrain the animal when vet checks are necessary?

I dont feel that responsibility will be a proplem for you. I think you are a very responsible keeper Ian. But, to be quite honest a Nile Crocodile is not even close to being a beginner crocodilian. Unfortunately, "growing with the animal" is not really an option in my opinion because the animals strength grows continuously. When the animal is 10' long you are going to have a hell of a time maneuvering that animal.

However, if you can gain adult experience with that zoo, give that a try for a couple years and after you can do that in your sleep....bring that croc on home!

Best Wishes and good Luck with your decision,

Chris

>>I'll be moving to a province in 2 years for vet school. It allows crocodilians!
>>
>>A quick background- I've kept reptiles for over 15 years. A large variety of snakes, lizards and amphibians. I'm an animal health technologist of 5 years, so the herp health aspect is all covered. All in all I'm a herp nut!
>>
>>Now, for the croc's. A good first croc would be a dwarf caiman? Alligator's?... The reason I ask is I know what I want, don't have hands on experience yet, and don't want the very long term responsibility of all the animals needed to "work up" to owning a large croc. I want a Nile crocodile.
>>
>>A young nile crocodile takes how long to grow, and would this account for enough time to learn and get accustomed to working with crocodilians before you have a large dangerous animal. As I said, I don't want to keep a dwarf caiman for 50 years so I can gain experience for the croc I admire. I don't believe in disposable herps.
>>
>>I do have a reptile zoo that I have done some apprentice work with, and I could return for more croc experience. I have worked with
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Chris Law
U.A.P.P.E.A.L. (Uniting a Proactive Primate and Exotic Animal League)
Herpetoculture Element Representative

View my website: www.herpfanatic.com

Try maneuvering a 5' caiman! I can't even imagine the power that a 10' nile would have. They are SO much stronger than they look (and UNBELIEVABLY fast and unpredictable).

Maybe a smaller croc like a morelets would be a better choice, yet even then......

Rob

If you want a nile I'm assuming you want a male. Well folks I'm here to say not much grows faster than a male american alligator. I 've had siamese hold their own for the first 4-5 years but now they have slowed considerably. I have a male saltwater that is over 5 feet and is'nt 3 years old yet.( grew 21 inches in 1 year.
Having said that my only problem with any crocodilian is you sound like you may be moving alot. It is hard to continually tear down and set up croc enclosures. Sooner than later you are going to want permanent enclosures. Especially if you get a large species.
I will be very unpopular and say I think you can grow with your croc provided you're already 20 years old or so.
I worry much more about inexperienced keepers with burms and retics than crocs. Yes you could get stitches or even lose a finger but you are not going to lose your life to a 3-4 year old croc.
The older I get(I'm 48) the quicker I want my guys in permanent outdoor enclosures.
Even my saltwater is not going to be 10 feet overnight. A nile is going to take realistically 7-10 years to get that big. I'm guessing by that time you will be at least 30. So you can see that is'nt a problem. The problem is while you are in school and doing residencies at various zoos for the next 6 years and renting and moving do you really want to tear down and rebuild temporary housing for your croc?
That is not fair to the animal.
Danny Conner

Why would you assume he wants a male? just curious.

Rob

>>If you want a nile I'm assuming you want a male.

He said nile crocodile instead of crocodiles.
Except for salts the nile is the most massive(not longest) croc in the world. I assumed he wanted an animal that was going to get massive. Lots of crocs will get as big as a female nile. I guess if I only wanted one croc it would be a male.
Danny Conner

Hi Danny,

I agree with you to a point. I have found alligators to grow pretty quickly but not necessarily any faster than any other species I've kept. I also think you can get a large species of crocodilian to grow considerably larger than 10 feet in 7-10years. As an example I know of a 7-8 year old approx 12-13ft Nile in Florida. For me speed of growth matters not as much as ultimate size and temperment.My Niles grow fast, as fast as any crocodilian I've ever kept. I also see alot of variation over any group of crocodilians. Of course the sex of the animal matters as well.

I also agree that one can 'grow with a croc' much better than the faster growing snakes/lizards. Of course the problem with this is that people are so unsettled as 20 somethings that lugging a growing crocodilian around is just not beneficial or realistic. I've also seen some pretty horrid injuries given by 3-4 year old animals to their keepers. So why the possibility of fatality is low, we shouldn't limit risk to just fatal events. Not to mention that it is much easier to house a large constrictor even in an apartment than house a smaller crocodilian in the same. So in this regard it's not necessarily about which animal one can 'grow with more safely' but which animal can be successfully maintained. In that regard snakes have a huge advantage.

One factor overlooked by individuals who purchase the 'giant' crocodilians is the price to maintain these animals as they grow into adulthood. The cost of enclosures, heating, food, veterinary care, and whatever else can easily reach into the 1000's per year. It's a factor that often makes keeping the larger species prohibitive for alot of folks. Especially those in the finacially challenging times of the 20's.

Good discussion topic!
The Ultimate Guide to Crocs

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CDieter
'Reason, observation, and experience; the holy trinity of science.'

Hey Chris
Digging this weather?
For all those nonTexans, low 50s at night 75-80 in the day and sunny.
I guess for me gators grew faster because their optimum temp. was easier to achieve.
Absolutely crocodilians can get larger than 10 feet in 7 years. I know my male salt will be over 10 feet in 7 years. If I was'nt traveling so much in the warm months he'd be 6 feet right now.( my wife refuses to feed as heavy as me.)
Although I have to say 13 feet in 8 years for a nile is MONSTER growth. That is the perfect blend of diet and genetics. Clearly that is not the norm.
I feed heavy. I got the first niles that Clark brought in. Granted mine were the bottom of the barrel size wise and since have sexed out to be females. Not one of the 3 is 4feet.I got them in Jan. of 2000.
Now I know when John was dispensing subsequent shipments he held back some of the larger babies and he has some 5 footers probably from '01 or even'02.
I know a guy in FL. who keeps his niles outside year around in a large earth pond.He has had them for 15 years and longer and not one of them is over 8 feet. They are all males. So I do'nt think 10 feet in 7-10 years is a conservative estimate I actually think for most niles it is pretty optimistic.
Obviously there can always be exceptions.As we have discussed extensively the right genes and the right nutrition/husbandry goes along way.
FYI of the 3 New Guineas 2.1 1 male was almost 4 feet now he is almost 5.The smaller male was about 2.5 feet now he is 5 feet and much stouter. Clearly superior genes.
I agree you want to be settled before keeping a croc. I was 28 when I started. But if someone is settled at 20 theres no reason they ca'nt grow with their animal.
I think most people know that a croc can hurt their keeper at practically any size. It's the people who have 1 burm. and it's the only snake they've ever had that present the problem.They raise a burm up to 12-14 feet and never a problem. They live, as you say, in an apartmentand the first time something goes wrong is when they get wrapped up in a feeding response. They're not hurt, they're dead.
Unless you're constantly working with your crocodilian by the time it's 3-4 years old it has tried to bite you many times.
Once again I agree crocodilians are expensive to house. I think if you're willing to spend the money and commit the space you're probably smart enough to recognize your limitations and the inherit danger of housing such an animal.
Once again it's the 4ftx2ft cage/coffee table with (2) 25lb weights on top that houses a 12 ft 80lb burm scenario that you will read about in the paper.
Of course we did'nt even touch on maybe the biggest obstacle of croc keeping.
Longevity.
At 48 I'm hoping my entire croc collection outlives me.
My snake collection, hopefully not one. LOL
Danny Conner
Congradulations on reading a long post !!!

"I think most people know that a croc can hurt their keeper at practically any size. It's the people who have 1 burm. and it's the only snake they've ever had that present the problem.They raise a burm up to 12-14 feet and never a problem. They live, as you say, in an apartmentand the first time something goes wrong is when they get wrapped up in a feeding response. They're not hurt, they're dead.
Unless you're constantly working with your crocodilian by the time it's 3-4 years old it has tried to bite you many times."

To be quite honest I dont quite think that's the case all the time. I have seen numerous people come in here and other places and talk about how they have been bitten by a 3 foot gator/croc/caiman and
"There was nothing to it". Most of these people seem to forget that they only got lucky and the croc/gator/caiman just didn't give them what they could have. Even though I dont recommend Burmese Pythons or any other large constrictor as a good reptile for the inexperienced, I would prefer to see them with that than a crocodilian. The expense of housing a Burm or Retic is MUCH less than housing a crocodilian. When you follow basic guidelines for safety with a large constrictor, there is virtually nothing to worry about. Larger crocodilians and even a Dwarf caiman should not be handled alone. I know you are already familiar with the cost in providing a proper home to a crocodilian so there is no need for me to get on that subject. But simply put, I would much more prefer to see someone with a large constrictor than a crocodilian. Now......if we go into venomous snakes....that is much different subject. At that point, I feel that the two are comparable to a large extent. I think as far as the danger factor goes they are practically the same. You need experience with a wide range of non-venomous species and you should work under someone with multiple years experience with "fully loaded" specimens for some time before acquiring your own. As far as cost is concerned...they are somewhat comparable as well. Setups are not going to be as expensive. However, I personally dont feel that anyone should be keeping a venomous snake unless they can afford to keep antivenin on hand for each species that they keep. This prevents using zoo stock and prevents the individual from losing their life inthe event that they screw up during handling. Crocodilians are also both the same in the fact that all it takes is ONE mishap and it can be all over with. You will most likely live from both experiences, but you will still pay a price and that could be losing a limb (or two or three). Large Constrictors are just snakes that you have to follow a few good guidelines about their ownership. Provide a sturdy enclosure, never handle snakes over 8 feet alone, always wash hands before handling or changing articles of clothing if necessary, dont keep prey animals near the snakes confinement, keep them fed appropriately, and make sure that the snake realizes that it is going to be handled before just reaching a hand or two into the enclosure. Snakes often bite first and then smell later in which can put you in a sticky situation (or should I say a "Tight Position"?).

I could go on and on, but I think you get my point.

Best Wishes,

Chris
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Chris Law
U.A.P.P.E.A.L. (Uniting a Proactive Primate and Exotic Animal League)
Herpetoculture Element Representative

View my website: www.herpfanatic.com

Chris
Sorry for the delay I had to watch the Spurs thump Cleveland. Sorry to any Cavs fans.
People who say it was nothing to be bit by a 3 foot croc did'nt get bit they got nipped. Even still I doubt they would willingly stick their hand back in to get bit again. And I'll bet the next time they are more careful. As the size and strength of the croc increases so will the wariness of the keeper. Until they realize it is more than they can handle and get rid of it.
Ask people,the few who have gotton loose, how much they enjoyed being wrapped up by a big snake.
Basic Safety Guidelines
That's like saying if you follow a few basic safety guidelines for keeping crocs there's virtually nothing to worry about.
Are you kidding me?
These are wild animals there is always something to worry about.
How many people have been killed by captive crocs?
I know of none. How many people are killed by captive pythons? I know of several.
BTW venemous are the worse 10 times more dangerous in a home environment than a croc.
Crocs are surprisingly agile and decent climbers.
But compared to snakes. The Houdinis of the animal world.
In the vertabrae world the best climbing animal barr none.
Oddly enough in the wild the oppisite is true with gators salts and niles killing people every year. While I've heard of very few documented cases of a boid killing someone.
I agree a 10 ft nile should not be handled alone but I also agree big snakes should'nt be handled alone.
So what is your point? Apply your safety guidelines to crocs and make them safe to handle.
My point is inexperinced people can successfully raise a big snake. AND do it cheaper. Thinking the whole time they know their snake they can handle their snake. They follow a few safey guidelines but as they say familiarity breeds contempt . They become more comfortable with their burm and one day it grabs them. Or it does'nt leading them to think they know more than they do.
BTW your safety regs are great if you work in a zoo or live in a guys dorm. I live out in the country with my wife. Shes a teacher so shes at work all day. It's kind of like lifting weights, if you wait for a spotter you never work out. So you do things that are'nt that safe knowing you're on your own.
I have 35 crocodilians 24 venemous and 46 boids(25 over 8 ft) if I wait on help I do'nt get much done.
I'm mostly talking about burms. Rocks retics and greens do'nt for the most part have that lap dog personality. And neither do crocodilians. Except for the rare Am. gator most crocodilians will let you know at an early age that there will be a measure of respect. Or pay the consequences.
Unfortunately for the docile burm, which I have labeled ambassador to the snake world, the first lesson may be your last.
Danny Conner

I responded, but it took me a while and it logged me out. Anyways, it placed my reply at the top of the screen.

Chris
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Chris Law
U.A.P.P.E.A.L. (Uniting a Proactive Primate and Exotic Animal League)
Herpetoculture Element Representative

View my website: www.herpfanatic.com

Hi Danny,

Your correct, that was long

Just a few quick notes and I'll save you the eyestrain.

'>>Although I have to say 13 feet in 8 years for a nile is MONSTER growth. That is the perfect blend of diet and genetics. Clearly that is not the norm.'

I would agree it's a little abnormal and obviously good genetics are at play but it is still within what one could reasonably expect with a captive growth of 12-20 inches per annum.
'
>>I feed heavy. I got the first niles that Clark brought in. Granted mine were the bottom of the barrel size wise and since have sexed out to be females. Not one of the 3 is 4feet.I got them in Jan. of 2000.'

Ok, here is something you may find interesting. Crocodilian growth is not necessarily dependent on how heavy they are fed. It appears the timing of the feeding affects conversion of the food to the point that an animal fed alot and often will have a lower conversion rate than an animal fed less often. In the wild the conversion rate is roughly 80%, very high for a vertebrate. In captivity the conversion rate is 7-20% in most captives. There are theories on why this is so, but conversion rates can be improved, money saved, and animals will grow better by manipulating this aspect of their husbandry. As an example, I have a female from 2001 and she is currently 7 feet and I am a long way from a power feeder.

'>>I know a guy in FL. who keeps his niles outside year around in a large earth pond.He has had them for 15 years and longer and not one of them is over 8 feet. They are all males. So I do'nt think 10 feet in 7-10 years is a conservative estimate I actually think for most niles it is pretty optimistic.'

In all honesty, I think those animals can and should be larger.

'>>Obviously there can always be exceptions.As we have discussed extensively the right genes and the right nutrition/husbandry goes along way.'

Agreed, I think genes play a big role but in a species such as a Nile you should she 12-20 inches per year if your diet is sound and your conversion rates are high.

'>>FYI of the 3 New Guineas 2.1 1 male was almost 4 feet now he is almost 5.The smaller male was about 2.5 feet now he is 5 feet and much stouter. Clearly superior genes.'

Are they housed seperately? Or together? I would tend to agree with you but there are other variables that we'd have to account for also.

'>>I agree you want to be settled before keeping a croc. I was 28 when I started. But if someone is settled at 20 theres no reason they ca'nt grow with their animal.'

Agreed, but I don't think I've ever met a settled 20 year old. I was still walking around with my zipper down. Well that happened two days ago also, bad example.

>>Once again I agree crocodilians are expensive to house. I think if you're willing to spend the money and commit the space you're probably smart enough to recognize your limitations and the inherit danger of housing such an animal.'

Never underestimate the machismo value of crocs, I knew a guy who had constructed an alligator enclosure in his apartment closet. He spent alot of funds he really didn't have, I asked him what was he going to do when it hit 8ft, he kinda gave me this dumbfounded look. His alligator was removed from his possession by authorities a few months later. He tried again with caiman. He now keeps anancondas and retics. Successfully at last report.

I don't think mine was as long as yours but I think this may be the most I've typed on here in awhile. I'd like to get out your way and see your animals next time I'm in SA. My wifes best friend lives out there. Are you familiar with Drury's gun shop? They own it.

Have a great Saturday,
Chris
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CDieter
'Reason, observation, and experience; the holy trinity of science.'

Chris
I would be very interested in any literature or papers concerning the conversion rates. I understand a certain amount of food goes into growth etc. and the rest is just waste but this sounds much deeper than that. Always looking for ways to make the animals bigger and healthier.
Today was so mild I fed. Both New Guinea males took a deer fetus. Body the size of a jumbo rat with larger head and obviously longer legs. The young male chomped and shifted repeatedly but after 3-4 minutes choked it down, whole. The old male(he has a larger head). immediately starts to thrash, slamming the deer to more manageble pieces.
Watching that I may have come up with my varible.
I hope not but I'm afraid the young male may have some porosus in him. That would explain the amazing growth, and his looks(he is the prettiest NG I've seen). Also his attitude. He looks like a NG but acts like a salt. When the 2 big siamese start acting up everybody runs for cover. Not him. He does'nt get involved but he does'nt run.
November I'm in and out of town. Unfortunately Dec. And Jan. look depressingly slow. Just give me as much notice as you can. This place is a wreck especially in the winter when I'm at home and able to work on projects.
I still think 12-20 is optimistic for captive niles. Especially these madagascar animals. I assumed that is what yours is. I think your being to modest on her phenomenal growth.
I say we do an informal survey on this forum for nile keepers. Ages sexes and lengths. Could be interesting.
Danny Conner

Hi Danny,

>>I would be very interested in any literature or papers concerning the conversion rates. I understand a certain amount of food goes into growth etc. and the rest is just waste but this sounds much deeper than that.'

Not really a waste per se, but lost in the process of cellular activity and not converted into body mass. The waste comes in the food that passes without being properly utilized. In the new book Adam has a good section on it. I'd post it but I think it is considered property of Kreiger until published so I don't think I can put it out on an internet forum. If we get together I'll give you the rundown.

>>November I'm in and out of town. Unfortunately Dec. And Jan. look depressingly slow. Just give me as much notice as you can. This place is a wreck especially in the winter when I'm at home and able to work on projects.'

Sounds good, I'll shoot you an email for a couple of dates.

>>I still think 12-20 is optimistic for captive niles. Especially these madagascar animals. I assumed that is what yours is. I think your being to modest on her phenomenal growth.'

Mine are South African. Of course following the trail all the way back is impossible but thats as best as I can reliably confirm. And I think if your not getting 12-20 from Niles, in all honesty, the husbandry is off. ALL of my Niles meet or exceed that level. There are exceptions of course but this has proven to be my experience and I raise them all the same.

Just a brief mention I acquired 3 Niles from a keeper in the Houston area. Nice animals, looked normal. Upon putting them on the routine my other animals use they immediately had a growth spurt. I have one croc 2 years younger than these 3 and bigger. These 3 where not underweight and had been reasonably well cared for, but the factors can be manipulated.

>>I say we do an informal survey on this forum for nile keepers. Ages sexes and lengths. Could be interesting.'

I'd like that also. I'd like to know who keeps Niles on the forum.

Off to work with the crocs.

Sincerely,
CDieter
The Ultimate Guide to Crocs in captivity

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CDieter
'Reason, observation, and experience; the holy trinity of science.'