Reptile & Amphibian Forums

>>Chris
>>Sorry for the delay I had to watch the Spurs thump Cleveland. Sorry to any Cavs fans.
>>People who say it was nothing to be bit by a 3 foot croc did'nt get bit they got nipped. Even still I doubt they would willingly stick their hand back in to get bit again. And I'll bet the next time they are more careful. As the size and strength of the croc increases so will the wariness of the keeper. Until they realize it is more than they can handle and get rid of it.

With the above remark, I agree completely. However, they also seem to forget that the animal isn't putting full force of what it could (ie. Just a bite vs. Bite and Deathroll)

>>Ask people,the few who have gotton loose, how much they enjoyed being wrapped up by a big snake.

Yeah, I watched that Animal Planet special...."The Big Squeeze". All of those keepers were following improper handling techniques (ie. handling prey animals before handling constrictors, not properly caging, etc). The people that have been killed by their large constrictors are typically ones that make irresponsible decisions with handling and caging. Once again, if proper handling techniques are in place, you will have little to worry about. Is this to say that you wont suffer a bite or two? No. Is it to say that you will probably not die from the issue? YES.

>>Basic Safety Guidelines
>>That's like saying if you follow a few basic safety guidelines for keeping crocs there's virtually nothing to worry about.
>>Are you kidding me?
>>These are wild animals there is always something to worry about.
>>How many people have been killed by captive crocs?
>>I know of none. How many people are killed by captive pythons? I know of several.

The reason for that is that crocodilians are typically not dragged around and continuously pulled out of cages (other than smaller ones). With large constrictor deaths, they were due to SFE's and poor caging. Or they were stupid and let the animal free roam around the house. Once again, not following safe handling/keeping protocols.

>>BTW venemous are the worse 10 times more dangerous in a home environment than a croc.

I disagree. I personally see them on both the same level. With proper caging (which by the way is not that hard to achieve, you just have to be willing to pay attention to detail and do what is right and not cutting corners) and knowing what the hell you are doing when handling, along with keeping your own supply of antivenin on hand, these are no different than keeping a crocodilian. Crocodilians can provide just as much of a danger if not properly housed or handled. Either one you will most likely survive in the event of a mishap, but you could be losing body parts.

>>Crocs are surprisingly agile and decent climbers.
>>But compared to snakes. The Houdinis of the animal world.
>>In the vertabrae world the best climbing animal barr none.

I agree once more, however, you are forgetting that there are housing protocols to be followed. Provided that you are following safe handling/housing protocols the difference between keeping a venomous snake and a crocodilian are really no different. I agree that snakes can escape much easier and find ways into things that crocs can't, but that all falls on the keeper and whether they are housing the animal properly.

>>Oddly enough in the wild the oppisite is true with gators salts and niles killing people every year. While I've heard of very few documented cases of a boid killing someone.'

Once again, I agree. But that just comes to show that crocodilian keepers of large specimens typically know what they are doing. There are far more keepers of constrictors than of crocs. Is this to say that crocs are less dangerous? NO. This is to simply say that there are more constrictor keepers and more people that will make a mistake or a stupid decisions during handling or housing practices.

>>I agree a 10 ft nile should not be handled alone but I also agree big snakes should'nt be handled alone.
>>So what is your point? Apply your safety guidelines to crocs and make them safe to handle.

YES! Using proper tools, housing, proper handling techniques, and extra man power when necessary, you can keep or handle any animal appropriately. It is typically when the human isn't being responsible or isn't following proper guidelines that things happen. This can be with a croc or constrictor or venomous snake.

>>My point is inexperinced people can successfully raise a big snake. AND do it cheaper. Thinking the whole time they know their snake they can handle their snake. They follow a few safey guidelines but as they say familiarity breeds contempt . They become more comfortable with their burm and one day it grabs them. Or it does'nt leading them to think they know more than they do.

I agree, but once again this can happen to anyone. Some people I have seen try to handle alligators like they are a large dog. This might work well for some time, until something goes wrong and the animal reacts to something you are not sure about and BANG! Take Bill Moss for example. I am not saying anything bad about him as he is a very responsible and knowledgeable keeper. He understands the risks and accepts them for what they are. His gator is often treated somewhat like a dog and trusted on almost the same level. According to him he hasn't really had any major issues with it and he even still doens't recommend this to anyone. To my knowledge he does most of the handling on his own, other than maybe with some help from his wife. This is a risk that he assumes responsibility for but at the same time, when he handles the animal he practices safe handling protocols. Just as I am sure YOU do.

>>BTW your safety regs are great if you work in a zoo or live in a guys dorm. I live out in the country with my wife. Shes a teacher so shes at work all day. It's kind of like lifting weights, if you wait for a spotter you never work out. So you do things that are'nt that safe knowing you're on your own.

Once again, this is a risk that you assume on your own. Some things however, are just not necessary and some people do things without thinking. I understand the point about not getting anything done. However, this is a risk that you take upon yourself. However, I am sure you try to be as cautious as possible during any handling with these animals? This should be no different among any other keeper.

>>I have 35 crocodilians 24 venemous and 46 boids(25 over 8 ft) if I wait on help I do'nt get much done.
>>I'm mostly talking about burms. Rocks retics and greens do'nt for the most part have that lap dog personality. And neither do crocodilians. Except for the rare Am. gator most crocodilians will let you know at an early age that there will be a measure of respect. Or pay the consequences.
>>Unfortunately for the docile burm, which I have labeled ambassador to the snake world, the first lesson may be your last.
>>Danny Conner

I agree, but if I have said it once, I have said it a hundred times. There are risks that are taken many times unnecessarily. This is all due to the keeper and your level of experience. There are things that can be done by one person and there are other things that simply shoudlnt. If you prefer to do it that way, that is your choice. However, if something does happen it will be your fault and I am sure it is something that could have been avoided.

Best Wishes,

Chris
-----
Chris Law
U.A.P.P.E.A.L. (Uniting a Proactive Primate and Exotic Animal League)
Herpetoculture Element Representative

View my website: www.herpfanatic.com

Chris
You are quite an enigma.
Here's my resume:
Keeping large snakes 36 years. 150 snakes longer than 10 feet.
Crocodilians- 18 years currently 35 animals 10 species/subspecies
Venemous off and on 25 years currently mostly rattlesnakes ,gaboon puff and rhino. Of the 3 areas of expertise this is my weakest.
Professionally
Snake Farm New Braunfels TX 5 years
All 5 years main keeper in charge of crocs last 3 years main keeper in charge of venemous.
S.F. had probably 50 crocs 13 species.
Venemous one of the top 10 collections in the country.
3 species of mambas, 8 species of cobras my favorite the taipan and dozens of vipers and pit vipers.
I have been a member here for years.
I saw when you came, how could I not maybe one of the most prolific posters ever. Other forums also. It was my impression that you were a newcomer to reptiles. The depth of your questions had that apperance. They still do on the burm forum. The whole dog smell thing...
I have noticed recently you answering some questions by some newbies. I smile at the full circle. You seemed sincere in the beginning though a little annoying because of all the questions but you have to learn.
Clearly you have confused me with a newbie.
You regurgitate information you have read on the internet or heard at a herp society meeting.
The 3 groups of animals we are discussing you know of absolutely nothing. Handling these same 3 groups same thing you have absolutely no experience.
I am talking about real life and handling real animals you are talking about Animal Planet and protocols.
90% of the guys I know who have handled big snakes their whole life have been in a compromising situation.
Of course it is their fault you can't blame the animal anymore than you would blame a hurricane for high winds and rain.
That doesn't change things.
My whole premise is an idiot can raise a burm 2-3 years and it is capable of killing him. Not hurting, killing.
Same idiot with a croc of any species that animal will not be life threatening.
Can it hurt you of course kill you? No.
That is a fact. Next fact.
Venemous snakes at birth can kill you not crocs.
I don't know everything and I love a good discussion but I would like my opponent to have some knowledge, some experience. You have neither.
Danny Conner

Hhhmmm...the good ol' personal attack approach. I'm glad that we decided to keep this on a diplomatic and mature level.

>>Chris
>>You are quite an enigma.

Why thank you Danny, I would hate to be easy to figure out!

>>Here's my resume:
>>Keeping large snakes 36 years. 150 snakes longer than 10 feet.
>>Crocodilians- 18 years currently 35 animals 10 species/subspecies
>>Venemous off and on 25 years currently mostly rattlesnakes ,gaboon puff and rhino. Of the 3 areas of expertise this is my weakest.

Very impressive resume!

>>Professionally
>>Snake Farm New Braunfels TX 5 years
>>All 5 years main keeper in charge of crocs last 3 years main keeper in charge of venemous.
>>S.F. had probably 50 crocs 13 species.
>>Venemous one of the top 10 collections in the country.
>>3 species of mambas, 8 species of cobras my favorite the taipan and dozens of vipers and pit vipers.

Very impressive, once again. Yet another thing that I am sure makes you more superior than anyone else on this board. Congrats!

>>I have been a member here for years.
>>I saw when you came, how could I not maybe one of the most prolific posters ever. Other forums also. It was my impression that you were a newcomer to reptiles. The depth of your questions had that apperance. They still do on the burm forum. The whole dog smell thing...

I am glad that you recognize my posts. As a matter of fact, I am not new to reptiles. New to the keeping of crocodilians and large constrictors....compared to the others in this forum, YES. So I assume that since I only have 4 years of private keeping exprience and the rest of my experience lies in supervised handling at a Reptile shop. I know, pet stores dont qualify as the best source of training and "expertise", but hey I had to start somewhere right? Some of us dont have the luxury of working for a zoo under a "Professional".

>>I have noticed recently you answering some questions by some newbies. I smile at the full circle. You seemed sincere in the beginning though a little annoying because of all the questions but you have to learn.

Hhmm, so are you saying that when someone learns something, that they can't pass the information on? Are you saying that only people with 25 years experience are able to properly answer a brand newbies question? Interesting concept.

>>Clearly you have confused me with a newbie.

At no point did I confuse you with a newbie. The way I have learned and looked at things are different than how you look at them or have experience them in your many years of experience. Is this to say, that I am 100% wrong in my thoughts? Perhaps. But I guess if you automatically agree with everything that everyone says, then you dont learn anything now do you? Yet another interesting concept.

>>You regurgitate information you have read on the internet or heard at a herp society meeting.

Doesn't everybody? The whole concept of learning is to take information that is provided by a someone more knowledgeable than yourself and using that information to further your own knowledge. Did I ever claim to be a professional? Certainly not. Ask anyone in here or other boards, I have been perfectly open when necessary about my level of experience. However, when someone asks a newbie question, I would like to also provide the information that I learned by either asking someone more knowledgeable or something that I read.

>>The 3 groups of animals we are discussing you know of absolutely nothing. Handling these same 3 groups same thing you have absolutely no experience.

Well...that's a bit harsh dont ya think? Considering you dont know me from other than on this and other boards. The data compiled from my own research, other people I have spoken with has helped me to learn and to prepare for other animals that I would like experience with. I do keep a Burmese Python, American Alligator, and recently obtained a young Dwarf Caiman. I have also owned and kept a variety of other species along the same lines. Have I ever worked with a 10' Nile Croc or larger...come to Ohio and you will see why I dont have that experience yet.

>>I am talking about real life and handling real animals you are talking about Animal Planet and protocols.

Once again you are a very superior individual. I am glad that you have proven wrong all of the other "Professionals" that compiled these protocols of safe handling and keeping.

>>90% of the guys I know who have handled big snakes their whole life have been in a compromising situation.

HHmmm. That is very unfortunate. I am sure they made it out because of safe handling protocols, right? This is why I prefer to abide by what these protocols have outlined. Is this to say that it will prevent me from getting into a sticky situation? Probably not. But will I most likely make it out alive, and without having to cause harm to the animal...most likely. Like I said, I never claimed to be a professional. I read every book I get the chance to, and I listed to the "Professionals" on these subjects and try to use what I have learned. When someone asks a question, sure I like to answer. Why? Because the "Professionals" dont always like to do so. Therefore, I would like to spread the information that I have gathered from various sources. You say that my questions got annoying? Perhaps, but I dont see how they would get annoying to you as I can't recall you answering a single one until now?- Funny how you "Professionals" dont seem to like to share your knowledge. The only ones that I can think of being annoyed would be Bill Moss, Izzy, and Chris Dieter. To them, all I can do is apologize for my ignorance of what I donot know and thank them for taking their time to share their knowledge.

>>Of course it is their fault you can't blame the animal anymore than you would blame a hurricane for high winds and rain.
>>That doesn't change things.
>>My whole premise is an idiot can raise a burm 2-3 years and it is capable of killing him. Not hurting, killing.

I agree with you completely. It is very easy to be done. Luckily for me, I have only suffered bites. Not because I allowed myself to be caught with a feeding response, but because the snake was naturally defensive and needed to be moved.

>>Same idiot with a croc of any species that animal will not be life threatening.
>>Can it hurt you of course kill you? No.

Yes, but not just ANY size however. While the death of a human by their captive croc hasn't happened YET, you cannot even possibly sit there and say (with your many years of experience) that a croc could not kill you. The only difference is that many people will have gotten rid of the animal before it is big enough to do that kind of harm.

>>That is a fact. Next fact.
>>Venemous snakes at birth can kill you not crocs.

I agree, but if you use proper handling tools, the snakes head shouldnt even come close enough to do that. Do I keep venomous? No. Do I have any personal experience with venomous? No. However, this hasn't stopped me from learning quite a bit about venomous snakes. This is exactly the reason WHY I dont keep venomous snakes:

- Inexperience
- Location of residence
- Lack of money to afford antivenin in the event of an evenomation.

I dont claim to be a venomous keeper. Never have. However, if I had listened to a bunch of other individuals instead of asking questions in this forum and others, I might have been already. I might have payed the price for it as well. I would have only been contributing to an already overgrown problem with the exotic animal trade. Therefore, I take the information that I have gathered from other indivduals who were willing to share it and I use it. Instead of being irresponsible, I decide not to and I try to encourage others to do the same with the same exact information.

>>I don't know everything and I love a good discussion but I would like my opponent to have some knowledge, some experience. You have neither.
>>Danny Conner

Thanks for the Degradation. It is always much appreciated. I like to help our "Professionals" with:

">>Here's my resume:
>>Keeping large snakes 36 years. 150 snakes longer than 10 feet.
>>Crocodilians- 18 years currently 35 animals 10 species/subspecies
>>Venemous off and on 25 years currently mostly rattlesnakes ,gaboon puff and rhino. Of the 3 areas of expertise this is my weakest."

To feel more superior and feel better about themselves because they can talk down to someone with lesser experience. No wonder people from foreign countries think Americans have big heads.

I am rather done with this topic as it appears that when one of our professionals feel threatened for whatever reason I am not sure, they take things to an immature level.

Best Wishes to you and yours.

Chris
-----
Chris Law
U.A.P.P.E.A.L. (Uniting a Proactive Primate and Exotic Animal League)
Herpetoculture Element Representative

View my website: www.herpfanatic.com

Everyone here brings something to the table, be it years of experience, formal training or questions that generate dialog amongst us croc enthusiasts. We have too many real battles to fight to waste time and energy squabbling amongst ourselves.

I like to get along with everyone here. Everyone here has helped me to learn alot since I have been posting on these forums, as well as a couple individuals helping me with phone conversations and side emails from time to time, which has helped me alot as well. I don't typically like to "argue" with someone of higher knowledge than myself, and personally I didn't feel that I said or did anything that could warrant his personal attacks. Regardless of whether he wishes to apologize to me for an undeserved thrashing on a public forum, I will apologize to him for anything that I might have said to trigger his attack. I will also openly apologize for my retaliation to his comments. However, I mostly apologize to everyone who had read all of that ridiculousness. I apologize for everything that I do not know, and I thank everyone who was willing to look past my annoying posts and provide me assistance.

Best Wishes to all,

Chris

>>Everyone here brings something to the table, be it years of experience, formal training or questions that generate dialog amongst us croc enthusiasts. We have too many real battles to fight to waste time and energy squabbling amongst ourselves.
-----
Chris Law
U.A.P.P.E.A.L. (Uniting a Proactive Primate and Exotic Animal League)
Herpetoculture Element Representative

I wish we could all just get along............

I do not wish to argue or create arguement, rather I wish to speak my two cents worth and let it marinate amongst our collective.....

I believe Chris, that Mr. Conner's point was that to lump large constrictors and venomous snakes with crocodilians is just plain silly. While it is true adult crocodilians are capable of serious damage and death; the discussed time frame was two years....two years...think about that! Do not respond to arque just think, a retic, rock, burm, olive, scrub...within two years of hatching, in the hands of even the most inexperienced is capable of being LETHAL. ZERO species of crocodilian are capable of being lethal in two years. That is huge...again because even a newby keeper with zero experience can raise the snake to that leval. Venomous are a seperate issue alltogether, at birth these animals pose serious health risks.
I do not beleive that Mr. Conner gave his resume to invalidate you or put you down, rather I believe it was offered to allow you to see where his reasoning for the rebuttal came from.
I rarely find time to get online anymore, which saddens me as to the vast amount of experience we all have the ability to draw from on this forum. Many of us make statements we may regret later, fewer of us manage to put it into type so it can really bite us in the rear, but it happens. Sometimes a chaste word is meant to help us learn and reflect, not put us down. Sometimes that is hard to do, listen and reflect.

>>I wish we could all just get along............
>>
>>
>>
>>I do not wish to argue or create arguement, rather I wish to speak my two cents worth and let it marinate amongst our collective.....

Hello Mr. Campbell. Your thoughts and comments are much welcomed. I have no problem with discussion as long as the "contenders" are conducting things in a diplomatic and respectful manner towards each other.
>>
>>I believe Chris, that Mr. Conner's point was that to lump large constrictors and venomous snakes with crocodilians is just plain silly. While it is true adult crocodilians are capable of serious damage and death; the discussed time frame was two years....two years...think about that! Do not respond to arque just think, a retic, rock, burm, olive, scrub...within two years of hatching, in the hands of even the most inexperienced is capable of being LETHAL. ZERO species of crocodilian are capable of being lethal in two years. That is huge...again because even a newby keeper with zero experience can raise the snake to that leval. Venomous are a seperate issue alltogether, at birth these animals pose serious health risks.

I am perfectly aware of what a large constrictor can do within a matter of only a couple of years. I am also perfectly aware of what a venomous snake can do pretty much right out of the egg. I understand completely that no crocodilian within this time frame is capable of causing death. A large constricting snake should not be handled alone past 8ft long. It certainly shouldnt be handled without having someone within at least earshot in the event something goes wrong. If something does go wrong, there should always be someone there that can help. Does this mean that everyone follows these rules? NO. Mr Conner himself pretty much openly stated that he doesn't follow that rule. He claimed that if he had to wait on help where he lives he wouldnt get anything done. This is only inviting trouble. However, he does have I believe he stated 18years experience, so therefore, I am sure he has years of experience to back him up if something goes unplanned. Venomous snakes I understand are in a different category. A single bite can cause death. But this is always why I feel that if you can't stock your own antivenin, then you shouldnt keep a venomous snake. Regardless, your handling and interaction with that snake should be extremely limited. Most bites occur by inexperienced handlers trying to show off or they are trying to free handle the animal. Some bites occurr due to a miscalculation of distance. Regardless, if you use proper handling tools (Tongs, Hooks, Hotboxes, shields, etc) then the possibility of a bite is almost negligible. A crocodilian while not able to inflict a deadly bite at a small size can certainly cause dismemberment of a hand. I dont feel that we should exclude crocs from the "danger list" due to a time period. We should look to the overall picture. This animal at a large size is going to be far more dangerous to handle, restrain, relocate or anything else for that matter than a venomous snake or large constrictor. Everyone always looks at the time period before they purchase these animals. If every irresponsible keeper that got rid of their crocs at 3-4 feet or less actually kept them until adulthood, I am sure you would see a much more increased injury/death list for them as well.

>> I do not beleive that Mr. Conner gave his resume to invalidate you or put you down, rather I believe it was offered to allow you to see where his reasoning for the rebuttal came from.

Not to be a pain in the rear about this, but personally to me, a resume means precisely....squat. I have a pet store owner that lives near me that claims he has over 40 years plus in experience breeding and handling large constrictors. This particular individual openly states to everyone that there has never been a confirmed death to a large constricting snake. He claims that other than a bite, there is nothing to worry about. He claims that Burmese Pythons make excellent pets. He also has signs posted around his store saying..."Every Home should Have an Alligator!". I will not post this individuals name on an open forum, but if anyone wants to know...they can email me directly for his name and the name of his store. However, if multiple years of experience resume is what makes you the authority over this particular issue.....then it looks like Danny Conners 18 years experience with constrictors has just been beaten and we have found ourselves a new authority on this issue. However, I have found data that supports otherwise, therefore, to me...that individuals "resume" really doesn't mean much. Everyone has a different level of experience. Everyone has their own opinions whether being correct, incorrect, fact filled or fact-less. However, to use these opinions in a forum debate is fine, but do so in a diplomatic and respectful manner. If you dont feel that his comments were belittling to anyone...I politely ask that you re-read his comments. He stated that he likes for his Opponents to have some knowledge or experience. He claims that I have neither. In my opinion, this is simply stating that anyone that doesn't have the same amount of knowledge or experience as him isn't worth his time in a debate or discussion.

>> I rarely find time to get online anymore, which saddens me as to the vast amount of experience we all have the ability to draw from on this forum. Many of us make statements we may regret later, fewer of us manage to put it into type so it can really bite us in the rear, but it happens. Sometimes a chaste word is meant to help us learn and reflect, not put us down. Sometimes that is hard to do, listen and reflect.

I understand and I accept that to a point. I still feel that there are better ways to get your point across. If get annoyed by reading someones post....dont read them. This is a forum. This is what it is used for. If we was at a big meeting discussing new laws for keeping the above three animals....I could possibly understand where he would use this method. As someone without experience or knowledge could cause unreasonable laws to be put in place. However, this being a public forum where we all enjoy coming for discussion, I dont feel that it is necessary to make yourself appear more superior than another individual.

Thank you for the discussion Mr. Campbell. I am more than happy to continue this discussion provided it can be kept at a diplomatic and respectful manner on both sides.

Best Wishes,

Chris
-----
Chris Law
U.A.P.P.E.A.L. (Uniting a Proactive Primate and Exotic Animal League)
Herpetoculture Element Representative

If your not Chris Law you may not want to waste your time reading this.

Chris
Besides having no experience and little knowledge, now I can't even take you at your word.
11/5 you said you were finished with this thread you seemed so distraught I decided that I would let you have the last word.
Even before John White posted a "polite lets get off this thread post",
you know John, a "senior" member of this forum. I won't call him a professional as I see that for whatever reason you have a problem with people who get paid to work with animals. But you were'nt done. 11/7 you posted and again on 11/9.
My post that you found so offensive I actually thought of emailing you but then I realized with your prolific postings it was possible that you had your own, (albeit misinformed) legion of minions. I was concerned that some kid who was doing a bang up job with a dwarf caimen might think he was ready for a gaboon. Or if one followed the SEGs or the gospel according to the apostle Law that even with crocs, venemous, and large constrictors there would still be "virtually nothing to worry about".
I felt it was my civic duty to correct you on the same place where you spouted your misinformation.
I had actually tried in a subtle way on my previous post when I listed animals that i'm currently keeping. I had hoped when you saw this list that you would realize this guy may be more into it than me. That obviously did'nt happen. BTW 18 years with crocs 36 years with big snakes try and remember that.
If you have read all the post you will see that Chris Dieter and I also have disagreed on some points. And Bill Moss and I have disagreed also.
At the same time I ,out of respect, would never argue salts with Grahme Webb, gators with Ted Joanen, niles with Tony Pooley, or gharials with Rom Whitaker. I won't tell Bil Hasst how to milk a snake.
And you, Ricky Schroeder should'nt tell me, Dennis Franz how to play a t.v. cop.
Immature , disrespect you wrote the book. All I did is expose you for what you are. A newbie.
U.A.P.P.E.A.L. Herpetocuture Element Representative
What the heck is that about?
Talk about being full of yourself. I sign my post Danny Conner I don't, normally list my animals or the name of my business in hopes of trying to further my credibility. Experience and knowledge gives you credibility along with a certain dose of longevity. Anachronyms don't give you credibility.
BTW I have'nt read a letter with that much sarcasm since I broke-up with my highschool girlfriend.
I'll tell you what I told her.
Sarcasm last refugee of the mediocre.
P.S. If you want I'll explain why you're able to pet your dog and then go handle your burmese with"virtually nothing to worry about."
Danny Conner

"U.A.P.P.E.A.L. Herpetocuture Element Representative
What the heck is that about?
Talk about being full of yourself. I sign my post Danny Conner I don't, normally list my animals or the name of my business in hopes of trying to further my credibility."

Uappeal is a new organization to help protect responsible exotic animal owners privileges of owning them. The organization just recently got its paperwork identifying it as a 501c4 organization. The signature is only meant to help increase interest to get people asking about it. Eventually organizations need members and you dont get them if you don't somewhat advertise. It was not intended to increase my "credibility". Thanks for your interest.

Yes, I would be interested in hearing your reasons why handling a dog would not trigger a feeding response from a Burm. Most people have not seemed to have any issues with it, but it appears that Burmese Pythons have a wide variety of prey animals that they will consume if given the opportunity. I would also assume that regular and proper feeding of the Burm in a captive setting would also have a role in this, but I am not too sure. This particular discussion can be taken up here, the Burm forum or by private email. Your choice. I certainly appreciate your time.

Chris

Chris
Wild burms have a hugely varied diet. However most captive snakes quickly learn to associate smells with prey items. Obviously still issues with movement, heat etc.
If a snake is fed dogs as a diet and you play with your snake thats potential trouble. Just like when you visit the public if anyone has pet rabbits or rodents that could be a potential problem.
Wild snakes (and I consider under a house in FL. just as wild as the everglades or asia), will eat dogs. I think that is much more of an opportunistic response than being attracted to a smell. Appropriate size, movement, heat these things would attract a wild snake. Especially one who had'nt eaten in a while.
I know you know all that. While wild snakes have been known to eat other predators it is the exception not the norm.
Usually herbivores of various sizes make up a snakes diet. You can read my theory on the gator vs python saga in the everglades up above.
You may find this interesting. Believing that variety is the spice of life I have fed my crocs accordingly. A friend who does osteological preparations has contacts with several large taxidermists. Thats a lot of meat going to waste.
Besides large herbivores like giraffe, kudu, oryx, I have for varieties sake fed wallaby,and kangaroo. More for my own knowledge I've fed a few predators mostly snakes but had one opportunity to feed tiger. No problem. They loved it. Of course crocs are huge scavengers.
I have dogs and housecats I've never had a problem with my snakes.
In captivity snakes can be amazingly fickle one friend has a yellow anaconda who will only eat gerbils. No rats, mice, or hamsters.
Conversly their are a few who would eat anything. A friend gave me a 8 ft female retic about a month ago. Someone did'nt pay so they gave the snake back yada yada yada
She was thin but not starving.1st week 5 jumbo rats. next week (4) 1day old pigs. A friend had giving me these for my crocs. In the next 3 weeks she shed and ate 3 rabbits and an adult guinea pig. I had 6 pigs out of 12 snakes still eating she was the only one who would touch them.
Danny

Danny,

Thank you for that run down of smell and reaction in snakes. It certainly makes sense, but one thing that I have gathered from your post (possibly misread or misunderstanding...or both) is that it seems that overall some snakes will react differently to certain smells? It seems like some animals will have a scent that could trigger the snakes excitement. Rats vs. Chinchilla? Although to my knowledge a chinchilla is a rat....just a very ugly one. We used to have ferrets in our home and my burm was always very excited and somewhat full of piss and vinegar when they were present. Before and After there was never a problem with that. But basically, if it doens't smell like what the animal is used to eating, then most likely it will trigger a feeding response. I have known of people feeding goats, deer, etc to retics that have never eaten those animals before, but they seemed to have taken to them with ease. Your retic seemed to take quite well to alternative meals to rabbits or Rats. At the same time it makes perfect sense as where sometimes with various snakes you have to scent the new prey item with the previous prey item in order to get the snake interested.

Very interesting....something I think I will definitely research further. I understand your point and agree...but as I am sure you have discovered, I like to make things a tad more complicated than that. It's great to know that the answer to the question is YES or NO....but I like to find out WHY it is YES or NO. I appreciate your time on this discussion. If you have any further thoughts or recommendations to help me learn a little more about feeding responses in snakes, I am all eyes!

Best Wishes,

Chris

>>Chris
>>Wild burms have a hugely varied diet. However most captive snakes quickly learn to associate smells with prey items. Obviously still issues with movement, heat etc.
>>If a snake is fed dogs as a diet and you play with your snake thats potential trouble. Just like when you visit the public if anyone has pet rabbits or rodents that could be a potential problem.
>>Wild snakes (and I consider under a house in FL. just as wild as the everglades or asia), will eat dogs. I think that is much more of an opportunistic response than being attracted to a smell. Appropriate size, movement, heat these things would attract a wild snake. Especially one who had'nt eaten in a while.
>>I know you know all that. While wild snakes have been known to eat other predators it is the exception not the norm.
>>Usually herbivores of various sizes make up a snakes diet. You can read my theory on the gator vs python saga in the everglades up above.
>>You may find this interesting. Believing that variety is the spice of life I have fed my crocs accordingly. A friend who does osteological preparations has contacts with several large taxidermists. Thats a lot of meat going to waste.
>>Besides large herbivores like giraffe, kudu, oryx, I have for varieties sake fed wallaby,and kangaroo. More for my own knowledge I've fed a few predators mostly snakes but had one opportunity to feed tiger. No problem. They loved it. Of course crocs are huge scavengers.
>>I have dogs and housecats I've never had a problem with my snakes.
>>In captivity snakes can be amazingly fickle one friend has a yellow anaconda who will only eat gerbils. No rats, mice, or hamsters.
>>Conversly their are a few who would eat anything. A friend gave me a 8 ft female retic about a month ago. Someone did'nt pay so they gave the snake back yada yada yada
>>She was thin but not starving.1st week 5 jumbo rats. next week (4) 1day old pigs. A friend had giving me these for my crocs. In the next 3 weeks she shed and ate 3 rabbits and an adult guinea pig. I had 6 pigs out of 12 snakes still eating she was the only one who would touch them.
>>Danny

I do agree captive snakes become very fickle, however having said that I have never had a burmese turn down food of any kind. Whether it was a chicken, rabbit, goat, or pig. And I know picky Burmese exist, just not in my collection.

For this reason I would not allow dogs or cats around my larger burmese pythons and while I don't take huge precautions to make sure I'm not 'dog smelling' I am aware of it and do try to wash up.

Also it should be noted that escaped pet burmese are often found after they have eaten the neighbors cat. Heck this is so common it makes AP's Miami pet police show. So obviously eating any warm blooded prey, accustomed or not, is something one should be aware of.

Sincerely,
CDieter
-----
CDieter
'Reason, observation, and experience; the holy trinity of science.'