Reptile & Amphibian Forums

ok so i want a dark black corn. i was wondering if i took charcoal and line bread them for darkness and diffusion i could essentialy make a snake that is almost entirely black.

I think people have tried a lot to do this, charcoal and the diffused patterns of blood reds make pewter which is a pretty looking solid snake. Charcoal can't make jet black corns alone because you need the bloodred (atleast I think) to diffuse the patterns resulting in het black. Pewters are the closest thing you would probably get. I'm not an expert at all maybe draybar, or phiber or someone else can explain it to you.

Charcoal Is just anery B and will never be a true melanistic corn. Which means that the pattern on a charcoal or black albino will never diffuse. My guess is to cross selective lines of pewter corns with the black rat snake to really do it. I would personally love an all black corn or one that turns into one, wouldn't that be sweet? Its all black and white and maybe bluish under belly would make it look like a shorter and stouter black mamba (Dendroaspis polylepis)

why can't i breed it for darkness take the darkest of the dark and keep line breeding them and they will get darker and darker untill i get close to black. if i have seen very dark muddy wild normals. if i cross these snakes which already have a black wash with anery i can get a dark snake with a dark wash to start with. but there are other ways i can try. all i want to know is has this been tryed or is it unknown territory and therefore possible?

The reason that you can't just keep crossing charcoals back to back to back to back and expect an ALL dark snake is because its NOT a true melanistic snake. A true melanistic snake is a snake where melanin (in this case jet black but not limited to) surrounds the body making a uniform or somewhat uniform color. Yes there are shades of Anery "b" (charcoal) snakes but none have been known to be uniformly black or close to it. Yes people have tried it and no it hasn't worked to my knowledge. It would take a bunch of breeding stock to go about trying to produce a jet black snake, maybe including patternless snakes,darkest bloodreds,charcoals and others. It's not as easy as you think. You can try for yourself and see but then you'd end up with a bunch of snakes. I'm not an expert so don't take everything I say serriously but I am getting this from an experts book ( corn snakes-The comprehensive owners guide) and interpreting it.

I'm not saying you would never produce one (anything is possible) but the chances of you doing it is very slim. Others that probably have 40 times the corns you have AND 40 or more times the variations you have tried this and it hasn't worked. This isn't unknown territory. Also the corns your getting from the wild (depending where you live) are most likely normals. Maybe with a dark muddy wash that they adapted to blend in more but infact they are normals. Maybe carrying a wild type gene? Yea maybe but dont hold your breath. The closest jet blacks are not even corns but but (basically put) corn cousins and they are rat snakes. If you want to know who's probably trying, his names Don and his website is cornsnakes.net.

It Is always possible. It would take a LOT of selective breeding and a lot of line breeding. Jayson is right it would not be a melanistic snake, but that is not what you asked In theory you would eventually get an all black snake.
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0.1 Snow Corn "Hope"
1.0 Redtail "Kilo"
1.0 Ball Python "Wilson" (Castaway)
1. Orange Albino Black Ratsnake "Chunk" (Goonies)
.1 Orange Albino Black Ratsnake "Peaches"

you could try crossing an anery corn with a mexican black king, then line breed
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jake

my addiction:
2 normal ball pythons (lazlo and izzy)
1 amelenistic corn snake (mazy)
0.1 blizzard corn (blizz)

...it would be impossible to do because it's hard? And that the only person who stands a chance of doing it is Don, because he's somehow able to transcend the boundaries of normal cornsnake breeders?

Don't get me wrong, I like Don and have respect for his stock... I just think you're being too negative and overbearing for no other reason than YOU think it can't be done.

Just because something would be hard doesn't make it impossible. You're also overzealous about your interpretation of the labels we put on cornsnake morphs.

Give it a rest, wouldja?

-Kat

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"You keep WHAT in your freezer?"
"Mice. And rats. If that bothers you, I can call them 'cows' instead."

"I'm not an expert so don't take everything I say serriously but I am getting this from an experts book ( corn snakes-The comprehensive owners guide) and interpreting it. "

An "expert's book" also used to say that the earth was flat and the center of the universe. If no one had thought to challenge those idea's we'd still be afraid of falling off the edge and watching the universe spin around us.

Nothing wrong with having a goal, no matter how "ridiculous" it may be to others. You may end up with several generations of holdbacks in your quest to accomplish a set goal, and you may never achieve it, but nothing ventured, nothing gained, or as the British SAS would say, "He who dares, wins".

Many breeders have bred out the melanin wash in corns, you just want to take it the other way, and achieve "hypermelanistics". I'd start looking for the darkest, "dirtiest" w/c corns I could find; there are a some wholesalers that sell them, and try to find hobbyists that ocasionally collect them or even breed w/c's together. They usually don't want to keep the "dirty" ones and would probably be happy to sell them to you. Using a diffuse corn may not be a bad idea, or a striped corn, to reduce the saddles...Good luck :*)

I was just explaining how hard it would be, Trying to twist things around isn't fun. DID I actually say that HE couldn't do it? NO, But I was trying to make a point that its going to take awhile and not just 2 or 3 generations of selectively bred charcoals and normals that he catches in the wild that look dark. I wasn't trying to be a know it all and most people take that personally for some reason or another (always happens). I don't get whats wrong with trying to tell someone the steps they would probably have to go through (NOTEROBABLY) and the snakes they would (NOTE AGAIN: PROBABLY) have to get if they want to see results. Yeah sure he could get some normals from the backyard and breed them with his charcoal and probably not even get charcoals in his first generation and say "wait wheres the charcoals", Then again I dont assume anything, maybe he might take the normals that are darkest from that clutch and hold them back. I just try to explain things to people, I should have stated things better But if you look at my first post I SAID that MAYBE someone else with higher KNOWLEDGE could explain it to him because they have knowledge AND experience. This isn't pick on the newbie that didn't explain every chronological thing that could happen and I wasn't trying to say "YOULL never do it!", I was explaining the steps.He wants to do it? Fine go ahead but atleast you should know a few things before you try.

Also he asked if its been done before or unknown territory, I stated that there were people PROBABLY doing this such as Don. But I dont know don or speak to him so maybe I shouldn't have said that. But these big breeders have tried and thats what he wanted to know. So please leave it like that. Dont take this personally and offensively, If anything I'm just explaining myself not try and fight on a snake forum.

...and i am a bit surprised you responded to my post. It had nothing to do with you and was meant to give the originator of this thread some encouragement, unlike Kats, which was more directed at you.

"this isn't pick on a newbie..."

You sure about that?

Whatever, this will further escalate the problem, I don't want to be a jerk. I try to learn a lot and tell others my opinions, hence me being on a snake forum. I don't really care if your better than me at snakes or breed a whole bunch (I wouldn't know if you do or don't). Even if that post was directed at me or not the poster (where ever he is) probably knows more than he did before and that was the goal I was trying to make and the goal that should be in every answer to a question on this forum. Also you copy and pasted my sentence and made a remark so forgive me if thats not directed at me in some way. Either way we are all here to learn and tell. I just said not to take that post personally and you probably did that (you replied). Maybe you do have years of snakes under your belt, that doesn't mean YOU like snakes more than me it just means you got a head start and probably a fine one at that. So just let it rest because the topic creator probably wont be back.

Jayson how come alot of people get upset with you?, i never have. I actually think you know quite a bit of good information for getting into snakes not to long ago, youve learned very quickly.
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1.0 Albino Corn "Lucky"
1.0 Snow Corn "Snow"
0.0.4 Southern Ringneck "Collar", "Bc", "Lazy", "Biggie"
1.0 Green Amevia "Gizard"

AS Ive said before I know a lot of people will come bash me and say that people get upset with you jayson for obvious reasons. But some people don't like the fact that I give information, Ive learned A LOT in just a few months, the key word is LEARNED i don't have experience like the very few knowledgable people on this board. The fact that ckm or chk or whatever got some what angry because I used a book as a reference and interpreted it got him mad. No it wouldn't hurt to try but whats happens when you try and you don't get the snakes that people told you on the board you would get? The snakes end up being hurt if not sold and just thrown away,large breeders obviously don't do this because they have buisnesses setup online or a shop or both to sell the snakes that were from failed projects. He wanted to know so I told him one side of what could happen kat simply told him the other. I admit sometimes I am wrong but not all the time. I don't want to start an argument and maybe I'f I word things better and proof read 15-18 times then people will get off my back and explain things nicely rather than straight for a bash but even then I doubt it. I will continue to come here because with people like draybar and others its a nice place to chat. I even stated that the poster might want to wait for someone that knew more to explain. I'll continue to post on this forum whether or not people like newbs giving information. We are all here to learn, information varies, just because its not what you would say doesn't mean you have to trample that poster. Maybe ckm or whatever has been here since this site was started either way It doesnt mean he or I like snakes more than the other it means we have a common interest or we wouldn't be here. Get with it common knowledge is common knowledge if I help a person that wants to know about morphs then I'll help them based on my knowledge even though yours may be "superior" some of it is common sense. I don't want my posts to be decifered or analyzed I just want to post. Dont kill me

jayson I see no reason for you to defend yourself to such a degree. If there were a reason for me to "not come back" it would be your takeover and rant on my thread. I understand everone has opinions on every topic and i value everyones opinion, but I was really directing this topic to those who have experience. The question I asked is not easily answered by someone who hasnt had years of hands on breeding. my question was is it possible your answer opinion was no but the facts say yes. I dont want this to go on further from now please on please keep opinions to yourself unless otherwise asked and share the facts with others.

>>>> share the facts with others.
I was trying to help you, seeing as how you believe mixing charcoals will get you an all melanistic corn snake...I tried to help and was defending myself against them. Help isn't really apreciated on this board, if you wanted help from people who've had hands on experience then you should have posted that or in your post or in the subject. You probably assumed everyone on this boards been working with snakes for 20 years. When you said share the facts with others, are you implying you didnt want facts? But a mixed answer? A simple "thanks but I need more replies to this topic" would have be more than enough. But whatever mix your charcoals and normals from your backyard that will make a jet black corn snake for SURE!!!!!Yeah!!!!

Your so funny jayson, not in a bad way though. I think reading alot of your post is so funny.
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1.0 Albino Corn "Lucky"
1.0 Snow Corn "Snow"
0.0.4 Southern Ringneck "Collar", "Bc", "Lazy", "Biggie"
1.0 Green Amevia "Gizard"

I think what this person is trying to say is calm down a little. I am happy you are so enthusiastic about this hobby. I wish more kids and teens would get involved and stay out of trouble but son, CALM DOWN! You don't have the knowledge to answer some of the questions you are trying to answer because you read a few books and have owned a corn snake for a month. Genetics questions still baffle a lot of the pros. I am not bashing you here at all. In fact, a lot of your answers are pretty good but don't try and answer them all or people will bash you. Just relax, enjoy your snake, and if a question pops up that you have experience with, by all means answer it. But some of the things you post here dont make sense. You said in a different post that all snakes are carnivorous. Check out green snakes, both rough and smooth. You would be surprised at what they eat. Anyway, just trying to help you out. I am glad you love this hobby!

n/p
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Paula
31 Corns, 1 BP, 2 Amazon Tree Boas, 3 Hondos
"ALWAYS LEARNING"

Have a GREAT day!!!!!!!

I am calm, maybe I have to word things better. But serriously kindness and being helpful is a 2 way street. Sometimes I'm right sometimes I'm wrong, everyone makes mistakes. I'm not a veteran at this nore am I a person who doesn't know anything. A hobby is a hobby. Either way I was kind of baffled that someone wouldn't even say thanks or anything, Maybe I shouldn't answer posts on this forum. People don't post replies for their health they do it to help. Either way I'm not angry or care about people on this board, I have tests tomorrow and football. Just saying why am I being penalized for him not saying thanks or showing some sort of gratitude for people taking the time to answer his question. Maybe he didn't get the answer he wanted exactly, like me saying "yes it will work 100%", but he got an answer. So yeah its late and schools gonna kill me tomorrow.

You are right to a certain extent about wanting a little appreciation but, again, son you are not an expert. You respond to almost every post on this forum with sometimes off the wall replies when it is obvious you dont know anything about the subject. I dont want to drive you away from this forum or want you to stop posting. I will tell you that you get very defensive sometimes and that can give you a bad name here. Like I said previously, calm down, enjoy your new found passion, and leave the questions out of your league to the pros. If you notice the big guns in the business like Kathy Love, Don Soderberg and others rarely post here. But I guarantee they are reading these posts every time they get a chance. And even then they say "in my EXPERIENCE...". This hobby is like anything else in life.... with age comes wisdom. Relax Jayson, we want you here.

>>I was just explaining how hard it would be, Trying to twist things around isn't fun. DID I actually say that HE couldn't do it? NO,

Um... one of your posts was titled "The reason you can't is because..." And it was about how line breeding wouldn't work because it wouldn't create a melanistic snake.

In the fifties or so, some experimenters in Russia decided to line breed foxes for tameness. They hand selected the foxes that were most accustomed to human proximity with the least fear or agression. It wasn't a dominant or recessive trait, just line breeding. It took many generations, but they got the foxes as tame as dogs.

With that example, breeding an all black cornsnake while not easy, must be feasible, for someone with enough time, money and dedication.

Jayson, I realize you care about snakes and really want to help people on this forum. But sometimes the best thing you'll be able to say, is "I don't know". And there's no shame in doing so!

Alternate versions that I've used are; "I don't know but here's where you might be able to find out more." or "I'm not sure, but this is what I heard" or "I don't know but I'm really sorry X happened. Hopefully someone else will respond." or "I'm unfamiliar with that, but this might be similar." And when I haven't covered enough, or don't know enough, I've put stuff like "second opinion needed" in the subject line. Which acts as a kind of help flag to draw more experienced people in.

Using such lines helps for a few reasons. First, even if you can't do much, posting tells people that they're not alone. By responding in a kindly fashion, they know someone's there for them. Second, it tells people to take things you're unsure of with a grain of salt. Third, because of the second thing, they'll listen even closer when you find steady ground on a particular topic you're very familiar with. Fourth, confidently sticking feet in mouth, is a good way to lose credibility really fast. Saying "I don't know but...", protects your reputation. And it also protects whoever you're talking to so in case you err, they're kind of aware you might and are looking at other options.

Well, I hope I didn't chew ya up too much. I'm glad you're here, learning and posting.
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0.1 chickens (Condor)
0.2 dog mutts (half ownership, only mine when they misbehave, Lucy & Amy)
0.1 Halflinger horse (Crissy)
0.1 Normal phase California Kingsnake (Sophia)
1.1 parents
Still searching for 1.0 WC human

...the terms 'hypomelanistic', 'melanistic', 'charcoal', 'anerythristic', and the like are terms WE put on morphs because we observe that cornsnakes homozygous for those genes seem to have an appearance consistant with the name.

This does not mean that assigning the morph that name forces that morph to behave exactly the way the name is defined. For example... let's say there's an orangish neon light that says "Eat at Joes". We decide to label its color as "Orange", since that's what it most closely resembles. It would be wrong, however, to assert that the neon light only emits orange light, because it's an "Orange" neon light. In fact, if you looked at that light through a spectrometer, you'd find the orangish neon light is actually composed of many colors, some of which are nowhere even close to orange!

Just because we observe a snake as being "charcoal" doesn't mean it can't be a form of melanism. In fact, charcoals tend to show more pronounced melanin than normals, especially the darker charcoal specimens. Furthermore, melanism isn't necessarily the only way to get an all-black snake. What if the snake had a gene that coded for a black colored pigment that was something other than melanin, and coded for excessive production of that pigment? It's possible.

-Kat
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"Oh, you've read a book? How quaint." -my sister

>>In the fifties or so, some experimenters in Russia decided to line breed foxes for tameness. They hand selected the foxes that were most accustomed to human proximity with the least fear or agression. It wasn't a dominant or recessive trait, just line breeding. It took many generations, but they got the foxes as tame as dogs.
>>
>>With that example, breeding an all black cornsnake while not easy, must be feasible, for someone with enough time, money and dedication.

MIGHT, not must, be possible. Even if possible, it doesn't mean it is feasible. NOT all things possible are feasible. Additionally, breeding for an all black "hypermelanistic in phenotype" cornsnake (which is NOT the same as melanistic) may or may not be possible. The fox example doesn't PROVE anything other than that it was possible in that case. Statistically speaking, "anything is possible." Somethings just approach being completely impossible. I'm not saying if this is a likely or unlikely line breeding event, but I am saying there is no evidence to conclusively say it is possible or not. I do believe it isn't very feasible, though.

KJ

I'm not sure what the drama is about in this thread, but I'll post that I don't think your project idea is unreasonable depending on your expectations. Line-breeding nice dark, low-contrast pewters/charcoals/diffuseds for "dirtiness" of the ground color can go a long way towards a nearly black animal. If you are expecting to make a coal black animal, that may not be realistic, especially since I've never seen an animal with black skin between the scales. They all have some white "fish-net-like" pattern to them due to the white skin between the scales. If you are looking to go towards as dark as you can, then I think you have the right idea.

I myself like the dark pewters and this gal is as close as I've seen to a "black" corn. It's not an easy undertaking, but little worth having is.

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~~~Hurley

I have been following it, but one reason I didn't add my $.02 is that I don't really know the answer either. And others seem to be covering the bases pretty well.

Given enough time and animals (and PATIENCE, lol!), almost anything is possible. The practical question is, does anyone want to invest that much time, energy, and money into the project? As you saw, there are already some pretty dark pewters out there, so it might not take as long as we think.

As far as knowing the answers, here is a story to put things in perspective.

I produced the first hypo (sunkissed) okeetees known, from pure okeetees, back in the '90s. Although they were not related to the "old" hypos, I was still pretty sure that they would prove out to be the same gene. Remember, this was before all of the other new hypos started taking over the world! Because of my opinion, I "didn't get around" to test breeding them to the old hypos for quite a few years. Actually, Rich Z. got some from me, raised them up, and proved them to be a new gene before I ever got around to it! So no matter how long you work at this, you will never have all of the answers, although you can make an educated guess that will USUALLY or OFTEN be right. But that is about the best you can hope for.

Thank you Kathy! A lot of people want to think that genetics is a cut and dry field when in fact, there are lots of grey areas. I know there are many people who are college educated about genetics and still get baffled when a new morph pops out. There are so many variables involved when it comes to living creatures that it baffles the mind! Who knows, we might see an all black corn soon..... or an all blue one!

n/p

I'll save us all some time and money and pick up a black ratsnake the next time I see one.

Part of the confusion, I think, comes from the fact that color genetics in corn snakes is a pretty new field. We deal mostly with simple recessives, and those can make pretty good sense. Then we deal with combinations of homozygous genes.

If what has happened in horse color genetics, which has been studied much, much longer, ever shows up in corn snakes, we'll have a real muddle. For instance, one of the genetic loci for a black horse, is not a gene for black at all. Rather, it tells the body to take the black color of a bay horse's mane and tail and stockings and spread it over the whole horse! Now there you can really get a headache.

Half the fun of genetics is combining things and trying to see how things work.

Leslie