Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Yesterday we encountered 9 rattlesnakes on our site, two Ridgenosed rattlesnakes(willards) and 7 banded rock rattlesnakes(leps)
The first was a gravid female willards that also contained a food(fed recently)

Then next a young male willards that contained food as well.

The female was a recapture from 02 or 03(HKM?) Both were in excellent health and condition.

Next we encountered a large male lep what was a recapture(5 encounters) He was were he likes to be, first seen in 98.

Then there was a never ending run of leps, that was only limited by time and foot power.

In total there were three recaptures, and many contained food. Surface temps ranged from 54F coldest in the shade, to 126F in the sun, with the average surface temps in the area of the snakes approx. 90F. This was taken with an infrared therometer.
Body temps ranged from 19F to 31.8F, there were taken with a quick read mercury themometer.

There was plenty of lizard activity, they love to watch us harass the snakes. It gives them joy.

So for Terry(TC), you are now getting the picture that what you thought about our snakes was wrong. Now I wonder what you will find if you really investigated your snakes(WI). Not just take information from a very few encounters of yours. Which is the point of this exercise. Your biggist problem is trying to make rules from everything you see( a common occurance)

The reality is, snakes do what they can to survive in all that habitats they occur in. They work each habitat and try to maintain, life events, for the longest possible period. Once the, life events, is restricted below a certain minimum level, snakes no longer exsist. They give way to other animals that are better adapted to those conditions.

For instance, in our area, the four months of the least surface activity for snakes are, Jan, Feb and May and June, in these months there are fewer suitable days that allow surface activity, but remember, there are days of activity. In your area, the winter months may be the months of the least surface activity. But you may not have summer months that restrict activity like we do. So you see, if you call that hibernation, then your hibernate in the winter and ours hibernate in both the summer and winter. But what are some parts of the population doing when not on the surface, sleeping?????????????? hmmmmmmm You may want to think that over. Snakes live underground, not on the surface. The surface is just another tool to complete a task, which they have many. Rattlesnakes are designed to use the surface more often then say, kingsnakes, but they kingsnakes are doing the same things. I imagine this allows more species to exsist in the same area.

So if you perfer to call it(being underground) hibernation, then good on you. I wish you luck with that understanding. I am sure, if you keep investigating, your thoughs(theories, hypothosies) will continue to change and you will outgrow that "hibernation thing" once you start to understand, what snakes are really doing. Please understand(I do), without that experience, I am spitting in the wind, as you have no way to understand what I am saying(no base to work from)

One key item to understand, not all the snakes in any population are doing the same things at the same time. This is very important, activity is task orientated. IF they are doing different tasks, then they have different activities.

The term hibernation is "ok" for a novice understanding of what some snakes do. But once you actually learn more about what snakes are actually doing, and you are no longer a novice, you realize that term loses its usefullness and becomes inaccurate. Hibernation is a poor term for the continued understanding of what "snakes" do.

Lastly there is confusion with, cooling/hibernation, in captivity being compared to cooling/hibernation in nature. These two do not compare or relate in any way(the start of this thread). In captivity its a tool a keeper uses for a intented purpose(to breed), in nature, its a tool to avoid adverse conditions(to conserve or a survival behavior). In nature its not a tool to induce reproduction. In captivity hibernation/cooling is used to induce reproduction. Its used because keepers don't understand, that these snakes include those lover temps in all seasons. If you/keepers included a choice of lower temps at all times, there would be no need to hibernate/cool, and your captives would then do what their wild cousins are doing, using cool as a base and seeking heat as a tool to complete tasks. They, the wild snakes, do this year around, so how can it be called hibernation? Good luck FR

Right there....

>>Body temps ranged from 19F to 31.8F, there were taken with a quick read mercury themometer.

19F is popsicle material Surely you mean centigrade.

Forky

And boy howdy I do have lots of typing errors. Again thanks FR

the surface temps are F. Sorry for the confusion, the infra-red thero is set for F and the other therometers are C. FR

The reality is in most of N.A. the choice in winter is cold or colder. Survival with minimal function or death from exposure. Please explain what choice a milk snake has in Wi when the ground temps are frozen and the snake is holed up beneath the frost line at 57F.

Life functions? Are you suggesting significant life functions occur in a snakes life during a Wisconsin winter other than cycling for reproduction?

Lets review important life functions. Feeding, defecating, ecdysis, reproduction, oviposition. Can you think of any others? Can you cite me any occurence of any of these events in a Wisconsin winter?

Please consider Wi is not Az. Phil

I took a winter mammalian ecology course several years ago, days and days out in the snow and cold. quite fun actually. in the grass etc underneath the snow cover it was a balmy 34 degrees in several locales. some students observed insects under there at work - even though it was a mammal course. i guess don't be too surprised at what can occur. not every place or even the same place every year has a nice snow blanket with an R value of (?)to keep things flowing down below.
with the blanket, numerous rodents were actively foraging. i wouldn't be too surprised if some bugs or a couple of mice got snagged when they ventured down into the soil. yes pure speculation but i believe...
daveb

Most of this is speculation Dave. It does make for good conversation though. I too venture out into the woods in the winter primarily searching for amphibians. I routinely see mammalian activity, birds, some inverts and of course selected amphibians. A snake taking a meal that it can not digest seems highly improbable. Remember now, I'm not talking about a snake in AZ, I'm talking about a snake in the northern U.S. that does not have the opportunity to get sufficient heat to process food in January. Phil

hey phil the further down ya go the warmer it gets not being a smarta$$ just sayin,,, i dont think they are eating that much if at all but moving about drinking,interacting,shedding,etc sure i beleive it happens i bet its just deep, ya mention Wi milks and 57degrees couldnt just a few feet below that be a mulch pile of sorts where the temps were67 maybe higher? but even at 57 thats plenty warm enough for snakes to go on w/lifes activities imho im sure you agree snakes esp. northern or hi elevation snakes are infact very active in cooler temps i tried to brumate w/c e.milks oneyear dropped temps to 38degrees and those snakes remained very alert&active and for the most part,,normal im sure they would have accepted food had i offered it!. anyway after brumating several snakes myself i see noway that they just remain dormant(do nothing)for 4plus months of course i base that on captive studies more than field studies w/ cold temps it sure is great convo,,,,,,thomas davis

Hello Thomas, I am certainly no expert on these matters but I have been told that once you are below the frost line the temps are relatively constant. Much like it is in a cave.

My point is if all recognized life functions associated with success of a species such as reproduction and feeding take place in the spring, why would it be necesary for a milk snake to be active in the winter months? The beautiful part of it is they don't have to be and the cold temps allow them to not squander their metabolic reserves. Phil

I have to wonder what feeding or not feeding has to do with snake activity, as snakes do not feed for many months of the year. Those months include winter, summer, spring and fall.

This feeding thing is again a captive paradign. It means everything in captivity and not a whole lot in nature. In captivity non feeding is a sign of improper conditions(man imposed) So keepers use it to adjust conditions. In nature, the conditions are consistant and they the snakes have evolved to use it. If snakes occur in any givin area, I don't care how far north it is or what the temps are, or how high in elevation, then you can make one great assumption. That assumption is, they have the ability to feed in a suitable manner to exsist. Actually is they exsist, they must feed. If they continue to exsist, then they must feed in a sustainable fashion. That is not an assumption.

Do snakes in nature feed on a captive schedule? and what would that be anyway? Every day, every third day, twice a week, once a week? Or something different? Do they start in march and end in oct? Who takes the mice out of the freezer? Help me out here Phil?

Back to the point, snakes have other tasks then feeding, they indeed can do these at temps much lower then feeding temps.

One last thought, if you took an infra-red thermometer, out today, and checked every place you see, you would find that there are a huge varity of temperature ranges available to snakes. Rarely are those temps the same as air temperature. Snakes do understand infra-red heat, and care little about air temps. Consider, all snakes spend the vast majority of their lifes in something, so its common sense, they understand those types of temps very well. Maybe you don't? FR

< Do snakes in nature feed on a captive schedule? and what would that be anyway? Every day, every third day, twice a week, once a week? Or something different? Do they start in march and end in oct? Who takes the mice out of the freezer? Help me out here Phil? >

That is exactly my point Frank. Field collected snakes often have their own schedule as to when they will feed and no matter what conditions we provide for them in captivity their internal clock tells them they are through for the year. No amount of manipulation on our end such as elevating the temps, providing a variety of temps etc..will change this. For example, my field collected bull snakes from the upper midwest are through feeding by Sept. Nothing I can do on my end will invoke a feeding response after this time. The important thing is to ensure that they are well fed during their active feeding season and no doubt at this time they are voracious and consume huge amounts of food. Despite only feeding for a few months each year these snakes thrive and grow and reproduce each year. Thanks again for the conversation Frank!

Phil

I think you can equate 6600 feet here with some northern areas at lower altitude I read that somewhere. Someone may be of help.

Now your task is to find out what they are doing, not assume they are doing nothing. You may want to entertain that thought We thought the same way as you and had all kinds of reasons to think that way. Then we kept looking and found out reasons to think otherwise.

Not to mention that when you say snakes, the vast majority of snake species occur in warmer climates. These are the "norm" and far northern and far southern, as well as high elevation are the "abnormal". So when saying what snakes do, I would think you would use the normal, not the abnormal.

I do understand that you finding out what the breeders are doing in winter, what the babies are doing, the subadults are doing, etc, is a bit more difficult. Consider, that is your problem, and not the snakes problem. Nor is it my problem if I/we, pick species that are a better study animal. Consider, rattlesnakes are not my favorite snake species, they are great, just not my favorite. But I would rather study them and not distroy their homes(shelters) then study kingsnakes and have to distroy their homes to learn what they are doing.

An example Terry made below of a winter sighting. He mentioned he found a single "sauga" in or under a buried stack of logs. IT was cold and inactive. I have no problem with that observation. I am sure its as he said and the snake was not active.

Now I ask, where are the rest and what are they doing? Where are next years breeders? the neonates? the subadults? the non-breeders? I bet we can all say that their are thousands of saugas and they are doing something. Is that fair to say? Then what are they doing?

What if he dug that pile of logs up and there were 7 saugas, 3 pairs and a single individual. also the pairs were coiled together and the single individual was apart. What would that mean? What would it mean it the temps are the same as the single individual he found. Or what if, those seven found a place where the temps are ten to fifteen degrees warmer? What would that mean?

Do all individuals of any one species spend the winter doing the same thing? at the same temps? in the same types of places?

So until you find answers to the above few questions, then I have to ask why you say what you say, after all, they all are there doing something.

Our task was to find what they were doing.

Now let me ask this. If our local snakes occur in an area where freezing does not effect them. Why do they still den here? Why do kingsnakes in central mexico still congregate in large numbers? Hmmmmmmmmmm maybe this grouping thing is more then just hibernating.

So yes, I do understand you have questions for me. But now you understand, I have questions for you. Where are they?

I bet I can discribe when you hunt(study) snakes. I bet you study them in the months they are easist to locate under AC. Like spring and fall. What what about mid-summer when they are not under AC. Where are they then and what are they doing? Cheers FR

Frank, I think you have homed in on what is happening in your area and as much as I respect your thoughts I still have my doubts on some of them. I'll break these down and comment.

< I think you can equate 6600 feet here with some northern areas at lower altitude I read that somewhere. Someone may be of help.>

This I have no personal experience on but I can tell you there are sometimes weeks in Ky during the winter in which the sun does not shine at all. As I'm sure you know sunshine on even a cold day can make a difference. Some of our most productive days are when there are cold temps and sun, but during the early spring. Periodic warm spells with optimum temps produce poor results in the winter here.

< Now your task is to find out what they are doing, not assume they are doing nothing. You may want to entertain that thought We thought the same way as you and had all kinds of reasons to think that way. Then we kept looking and found out reasons to think otherwise. >

I can not see beneath the frozen ground. However I have had the opportunity of seeing the results of a number of telemetry studies which have confirmed there is very little activity going on below the ground. I would have to say that the onus is on you to prove otherwise.

< Not to mention that when you say snakes, the vast majority of snake species occur in warmer climates. These are the "norm" and far northern and far southern, as well as high elevation are the "abnormal". So when saying what snakes do, I would think you would use the normal, not the abnormal. >

I agree. The snakes in question I was referring to though are those from N.A. which I assume we are both referring to in one way or another. For example, the over wintering habits of Wi milk snakes.

< Now I ask, where are the rest and what are they doing? Where are next years breeders? the neonates? the subadults? the non-breeders? I bet we can all say that their are thousands of saugas and they are doing something. Is that fair to say? Then what are they doing? >

I suggest that in some instances they are doing nothing. The world is full of examples of species with limited activity periods. The important element here is proliferation of the species not constant motion.

< Now let me ask this. If our local snakes occur in an area where freezing does not effect them. Why do they still den here? Why do kingsnakes in central mexico still congregate in large numbers? Hmmmmmmmmmm maybe this grouping thing is more then just hibernating. >

This I can not answer. So how about this. Why do rattlesnakes den singly here in Ky rather than communionally? Its the same with all species here. There has been no evidence of large dening agregations like there is in the northeast or the northern plains. Milder temps maybe? I don't know, but with few exceptions like the western cottonmouth this doesn't seem to occur here.

< I bet I can discribe when you hunt(study) snakes. I bet you study them in the months they are easist to locate under AC. Like spring and fall. What what about mid-summer when they are not under AC. Where are they then and what are they doing? >

Yes, I both hunt and study snakes. I have found thousands of snakes and I have volumes of field observations. I find snakes when others don't know how or where. Aside from hunting snakes I search for all herps and spend a great deal of time in the field all year round including winter when I collect info on amphibians. Experience has taught me to adapt and change methods depending on conditions. I do like AC but I employ other methods depending on season and local conditions. As to mid summer, I consistently find snakes during this period. Often under AC that I deployed with summer conditions in mind. Yes, AC can be very effective in the summer months if you know how to place it and when to chech it.

Anyhow, as always, I enjoy the snake talk Frank.

Phil

you can disagree all you like, but what good is that? does it help you understand your study animals, or does it just keep you thinking what your already thinking.(can you spell paradign?)

Because, without you actually seeing what your animals are doing in winter, you sir, have no idea what they are actually doing, you only have your assumption of what they are doing. I hope that works for you.

Remember, not seeing something is not an observation, or as HMK says, not a data point. Not seeing something is simply, not seeing something. Its lack of data. The difference here is, we have seen and shown and will show, what our animals are doing, you are guessing what yours are doing. One is fact, the other is assumption. Its not an attack on you, its simply meant to help you understand what data is. If snakes are harder to view in the winter in your area, does not make lack of data, data. FR

he gotcha there phil,,,,,thomas

With all due respect Thomas, I disagree. Phil

it was a jab but imho true nonetheless the fact is you dont know what your wild kings are doing in dead of winter you assume but no data point theresorry,but he gotcha there,,,all in fun
,,,,,,,,thomas

yeah, but guess what? He doesn't know what they are doing either. Both of us are just supposing. It does make for fun talk though. Phil

Its not as much that I am disagreeing with you. In fact you are reaffirming the notions that I have had on activity patterns that occur under different conditions in the U.S. Having limited knowledge of the American southwest the observations that you have made fall in line with what I would assume occurs. For example, very limited surface activity in the hot summer month of June. I contend there is sufficient evidence that various herps in different regions have differing activity periods. There is no need for all animals to be active at all times. Here's an example. Omar Attum did a presentation for our herp society last Sunday on his PHD work with the Egyptian Tortoise. Using telemetry they found their study animals were most active in winter with some surface activity in the spring and fall. His study animals aestivated during the summer months and were completely dormant. In other words, they did nothing for several months each year. Being active in the summer months was not a paramount issue to their survival as a species.

You are correct again. We are not seeing snakes in the coldest months such as January and February. However, there have been many telemetered animals that have been tracked in various studies in more northern climes and these studies have conclusively shown that there is a period of dormancy. I would refer you to William Browns studies on timber rattlesnakes in N.Y. and Pa and Robert Zappalorti's work on Northern Pine snakes and timbers in N.J. as a starting point. Thanks again for the conversation, Phil

You keep grabbing at straws, those old straws that limit you in the first place.

First off, the american southwest. Hmmmmmmmmmmm what about texas, east texas, what about La. or Fla? I did live in Fla. and tenn. for that matter. Hmmmmmmmm I think everyone with collecting experience knows, that the very best time to hunt snakes in fla. is during the winter. Unless your hunting water, garder and ribbon snakes. So may I include Fla. too, then may as well include all the states between Fla. and Texas, and Az. Heck even Calif. where I first learned to collect in the winter.

Now for the hardest part, what the heck is dormacy????? what does that mean? I think we are now getting at the real point. We disagree on what dormacy means. You think its when they stop feeding? of course you don't. Do you think its when they stop moving at all, yea, thats it. If they cannot move, they are indeed dormant. But what if they do move. What if they do somethings intentionally? What if they do behaviors that are important? Then I am afraid you cannot call them dormant.

In those find dens you cited(I have met some of those fellas, fine fellas indeed) What are those individuals doing? Nothing? or better yet, something? Where are there individuals that do not go to dens? like the babies and subadults or even some adults? Perhaps they have no reason to go there. If thats so, then the ones there are there for a reason. If some do not go there, the the reason may not be to not freeze. You do understand, you can easily find snakes of the same species that are in dens, that were not in the dens, don't you? Where were they, perhaps they were dormant and the ones in dens are not dormant.

So when these snakes are in the dens, are they stuck in one place all winter? or do they move around? if they move around, why? If they can move, then they are not dormant.

What if they move around on most days but not during the very coldest days, like when a cold front moves thru.

What if they only move a few feet, is that being dormant? If you would of asked how far our winter active snakes move in the coldest months, we may have said a few feet. If you would have asked what happens when a cold front moves thru, I/we may have said, they stay down. If you would have asked how long they stayed down, I/we may have said, oh, anywhere from a day to weeks. Then I would have said, but not every year is the same, some years there is no reason to go down for weeks, and some years there are. But you didn't ask, you just try and fortify your thoughts. That sir is what is limiting you, you are stuck in your own paradign and are not willing to investigate outside of it. You simply want information that supports your paradign. Also sir, that is common in science(bad).

The point is, you and maybe your friends are assuming that these snakes are dormant, all of them. I am suggesting the possibility that not all of them are inactive, some of them may be purposely envolved in life events(which is not feeding). So I ask you questions.

Which is what bothers me, you do not answer or attempt to answer my questions, you guess grab at straws.

You must understand, forums are first person, that is, I am asking you questions about your experience, not the authors of those papers. You sir. You still have do not seem to have any first hand knowledge of what your snakes are doing in winter. You still are relying on assumption.

I also ask you stop flipping the coin, you say, but snakes in arizona, Sir to be clear, I asked questions about snakes around you. Not snakes in ariz.

You may entertain the thought of changing study species and use blackrats. They occur in your area, are very common and finding where they do in winter is easy. I actually found some by you, you know, that old farm, just east of Louisville, on the north side of the highway. Yea, both blackrats and copperheads.

A little story, I lived in Fla, and was working at Ross Allens, 1970 or 71, I believe. I asked what the rarest snake was, they said, Gulf hammock ratsnakes. So I had a look at them. Well as you can imagine, it took me fifteen minutes to find my first one. I did get a real big lesson thought. I found this old building, it was huge, it was aboundanded. They used it as a bomb shelter during the Cuba crisis. This building had a giant basement. There were literally hundreds upon hundreds of ratsnake sheds in there. But oddly, only a few ratsnakes at any givin time. I was confused, hundreds of sheds, but only a few snakes, hmmmmmmmmm Then out of boredom, I went in that basement in the winter and what do you think I found, yup, hundreds of ratsnakes and almost no sheds. These snakes gathered up in the late fall, spent the winter there, shed in the spring, then left. Heck its Fla, they have no need to den. What the heck are they doing? Oh yea, what about those darn scarlet kings denning in dead trees in the winter, oh except when the ratsnakes get there first. Hmmmmmmmmm always adults, no babies and in the south where stuff does not hibernate. Actually I found trees with nothing but baby ratsnakes, why would adults and babies den in different areas?

By the way, do some research, I believe, Tucson is not all that far south, kinda parallel with Atlanta or something like that. I am just guessing, check it out. Then we are at elevation, which kinda puts us at say NC or maybe southern Tenn. or something.

The last passing note, we all agreed kingnakes live in the ground, yet your stuck on the thought that when they are in the ground they are dormant. I ask, is there a level in the ground when temps are consistant year around? FR

Frank, from your post I'm thinking that perhaps the definition of dormant may be the issue. By dormant I don't mean to say the snakes don't move at all while beneath the ground in the winter. What I mean is moving a few feet in either direction every several weeks is not my concept of what constitutes activity. By dormant I mean the snakes are not courting, breeding, nesting, feeding, shedding and those sorts of activities. Indeed something important is happening though and that is spermatogenesis. Snakes may move to and fro along the thermal cline at this time as well but I still consider this a dormant period. I might roll over in bed while I sleep but thats not exactly what I would refer as activity. I do think that during a good portion of the year snakes are active while below the surface. Many snakes are fossorial by nature and perform many life functions beneath the surface.

I'm glad you brought up Florida as another example in this conversation. I too have spent time in Florida and I totally agree winter is a great time to be there. Nothing like walking the cane fields below Okeechobee on a late winter morning! Those same kingsnakes are a bit tougher to find in July. This example illustrates my point very well. What one snake is doing in south Florida and another in Wisconsin during January can be completely different. Species activity cycles are directly related to environmental conditions. In the natural world everything happens for a reason. Why would an eastern milk snake benefit from being active during the winter months when they are quite capable of performing all life tasks spring, summer and fall? Thanks, Phil

Now, what makes you think that when they group in numbers, such as dens, and those numbers include mature males and females, that this grouping may be not be reproductively inclined. I suggest that it is reproductively inclined. As its rare to find non-reproductive individuals in these groups. Why does the non-reproductive individuals den somewhere else?

Of course this grouping occurs with ratsnakes and is known. In milksnakes, in pyros, in thayeri, in mex mex, in ruthies, in zonatas, etc. These groupings occur from a pair to several pair, to large numbers. So I still suggest, they are not in these pairs or groups, randomly. They have an intent and repeat these behaviors year after year.

To help you think about this, Others here and I, have brought up examples of how low of temps snakes can volunterily move about. We also keep bringing up, snakes do not move about all the time. At any time of the year. Successfull snakes, pretty much stay put. They do not feed in all spring, summer and fall months. They have times of the year that they feed heavily and times they don't. Of course, they feed less in winter.

What it appears like to me is, you want you to be right about the things you see. And could careless about what other snakes in different parts of the country do. You want yours to fit what you think and see. I understand that, but I keep bringing up what you haven't seen. Until you see what your snakes are doing in winter, you really should keep an open mind. If you are half as good as you say you are, then stop doing the same things over and over and start doing things you have not been so successful at. Start looking for what they are doing in winter.

You have seen about half of what your snakes are doing, and leave the other half to assumption. That would not serve you well if you only saw the back half of an elephant. In fact, have you even seen half? have you seen them pair breed and nest, repeatedly? Or are you expert at finding them under boards and tin? Where do those kings live when not under boards and tin? What are they doing? Why are those snakes under the tin there in the first place?

Again, please keep it about your snakes. And respond to the questions.

By the way, you have never asked what I think snakes do. Why? FR

< Now, what makes you think that when they group in numbers, such as dens, and those numbers include mature males and females, that this grouping may be not be reproductively inclined. I suggest that it is reproductively inclined >

Frank, I never even commented on what I thought about group denning other than to say it does not happen here with most species. Exceptions would be snakes like western cottons. I actually agree with you on this. I think it is highly probable that mass denning is conected to reproduction. A good example would be those huge mating balls of Thamnophis in Manitoba.

< To help you think about this, Others here and I, have brought up examples of how low of temps snakes can volunterily move about. We also keep bringing up, snakes do not move about all the time. At any time of the year. Successfull snakes, pretty much stay put. They do not feed in all spring, summer and fall months. They have times of the year that they feed heavily and times they don't. Of course, they feed less in winter. >

I agree with this as well.

< What it appears like to me is, you want you to be right about the things you see. And could careless about what other snakes in different parts of the country do. You want yours to fit what you think and see. I understand that, but I keep bringing up what you haven't seen. Until you see what your snakes are doing in winter, you really should keep an open mind. If you are half as good as you say you are, then stop doing the same things over and over and start doing things you have not been so successful at. Start looking for what they are doing in winter. >

Its not really a matter of me being right or wrong or you being right or wrong for that matter. I know there is much to learn and readilly admit this. Thats what keeps all this interesting. There are some questions we may never have answers to. I do have an interest in what is occuring in other areas. What I don't try to do is assume that all snakes in all places are living their lives exactly as those in my area do.

< Or are you expert at finding them under boards and tin? Where do those kings live when not under boards and tin? What are they doing? Why are those snakes under the tin there in the first place? >

I don't think of myself as an expert but I have learned much about the values of AC and consider it a very useful method of locating snakes under the right conditions. Providing shelter, thermoregulation opportunities and harboring prey items are a few of the attributes of tin. Checking AC is only one method we use to find snakes. Others would include funnel traps, checking natural cover (rocks, logs, etc..), hiking habitat and road cruising to name a few. All of these methods have their place and time.

< By the way, you have never asked what I think snakes do. Why? FR >

I had read a great deal of the threads between yourself and Terry Cox and was able to get some idea of what your thoughts were but yes, I would like to hear more about what you think the snakes are doing. Thanks once again for the conversation Frank.

Phil

Let me first say that I have really been enjoying the conversation between you guys. I just wanted to ask a few questions. You both seem vary knowledgeable. This may be a stupid question but Ill ask anyway, what is AC? How many snakes do you guys find on average a year? What species are most common in your area? I have been interested in snakes since I was 6 years old, I am now 24. In all the years that I have been looking for snakes I have always seemed to find more snakes on accident, when I wasnt looking for them, then when I am searching junk piles, under rocks, logs, boards and tin. So I ask you what am I doing wrong? What are your methods for finding snakes? Are you guys just lucky? I would love to be an expert at finding kingsnakes, and other snakes under boards and tin . So do you fellas have any tips for me? Just to let you know I have done most of my snakehunting in central texas. Texas rats are the most common animal I find, other than maybe garters and lined snakes. I have been hunting for copperheads for a couple years now and have never found one, maybe its the area im looking in or something, but they seem to be easy to find for most of the people who write on these forums.I hope you guys can give me some good advice.

happy herping and thanx in advance
WES

forky

waco temple killeen area

WES

Glad you have been enjoying the discussion Wes, as have I. Finding snakes in the field is both an art and a science and in most cases a lot of effort and perseverence. I think a discussion on some of the how's and where's of successful snake hunting would be a great topic for a thread and probably warrants its own heading. Now to answer some of your questions,

< This may be a stupid question but Ill ask anyway, what is AC? How many snakes do you guys find on average a year? >

Not a dumb question at all. AC is the field herpers shorthand for artificial cover. Generally that means boards, roofing tin and that sort of thing. How many snakes do we see in the field in a year? It varies. I am involved in a number of projects with my field partner Will Bird and our focus is on these projects and not necessarily finding numbers. In the course of us working on these projects we sample a lot of habitats and see a lot of snakes. We have many charts and graphs that we make since we document all that we see. Not just snakes, but turts, lizards, salamanders and frogs as well. Here is a graphic of the live snakes we have seen in the field in Ky the past three years. These numbers do not include road kills or snakes we see on our trips out of state.

Diadophis punctatus (including both Northern and Mississippi ringneck snakes) - 570
Coluber constrictor (Southern Racer) - 434
Thamnophis sirtalis (Eastern Garter Snake) - 217
Lampropeltis getula (Black Kingsnake) - 188
Agkistrodon contortrix (Northern Copperhead) - 183
Elaphe guttata (Corn Snake) - 93
Lampropeltis calligaster (Prairie Kingsnake) - 59
Carphophis amoenus (Midwest Worm Snake) - 59
Nerodia sipedon (including both Northern and Midland Water Snakes and their intergrades) - 58
Crotalus horridus (Timber Rattlesnake) - 51
Elaphe obsoleta (Black Rat Snake) - 52
Agkistrodon piscivorus (Western Cottonmouth) - 50
Lampropeltis triangulum (including both Eastern and Red Milk Snakes and their intergrades) - 48
Storeria dekayi (Midland DeKay's Snake) - 45
Regina septemvittata (Queen Snake) - 40
Heterodon platirhinos (Eastern Hognose Snake) - 38
Storeria occipitomaculata (Northern Redbelly Snake) - 32
Virginia valeriae (including Eastern and Western Smooth Earth Snakes - 22
Nerodia erythrogaster (including Yellowbelly and Copperbelly Water Snakes and their intergrades) - 12
Nerodia rhombifer (Diamondback Water Snake) - 10
Nerodia fasciata (Broad-banded Water Snake) - 4
Clonophis kirtlandii (Kirtlands Snake) - 4
Opheodrys aestivus (Rough Green Snake) - 3
Thamnophis proximus (Western Ribbon Snake) - 3
Thamnophis sauritus (Eastern Ribbon Snake) - 2
Pituophis melenoleucus (Northern Pine Snake) - 1

Total live snakes observed in this time period = 2277

Thanks for your interest, Phil

Wow, those are some great numbers wish I could find reptiles like that. Would you say you find more snakes in spring or fall?(what months.)How often are you in the field? Would you say you have had the most success road hunting, field herping, or traping? natural cover or AC? I just wanted to mention I have seen a couple of ratsnakes out very late in the year when you would think they are all hibernating(jan or feb.)I have never been fortunate enough to find an actual densite so I have no experience with those situations, but hopefully in the future I will. Also I wanted to thank you for the info you have givin me, seems like alot of the people who study snakes are as secretive as the animals they study.

Thanks again,
WES

you defend your paradigns instead of listening. Consider to listen is not to believe, no one asked you to believe anything, In fact, I constantly say, over and over, to CONSIDER. look that word up. Basically that means to think about in some depth. Not to believe me. To simply consider. To offer information to you is to allow you to be aware of some possibilities, not convince you of anything. As I have mentions, I have no interest or benefit on what you believe. That sir is your problem. Consider, to be aware is important.

Why thats important, it seems you do not consider what the snakes are telling you as well. Now you can consider that too.

Ok, neither you or Terry asked. As I mentioned long ago, I have field experience that ranges from the far north to tropical and equatorial desert regions of the world. There was reason for me to mention that. That means I am not confined to your northern paradign of what snakes do. I have also mentioned, that the vast majority of snake species occur between the tropic lines. So of course, my thoughts have a different more general idea of what snakes do. I am not confined by Kentucky or Wi. snake behaviors. Which makes me wonder why you keep bringing up ariz snakes, I never said they were all that important to this conversation. They are merely used as an example, as they are nearby and handy.

So here goes. Basically in a general way, snakes have two basic seasons. They also have a basic home range. Half the year, they use a small part of their range and concentrate of reproduction, which includes pairing, courting, mating and ends with dropping of offspring or eggs. The other half of the year, they use or can use, a greater part of their home range for feeding. I call this foraging season for lack of a better term. As not all snakes forage, all the time or even part of the time. So lets say, the normal year consists of breeding, about half the year, and feeding, the other half.

To make it a little messy, in either season they are not confined to the mission of that year, They may feed during the breeding season, but they may not seek food, if it presents itself, they will consume it.(Why not?) during the foraging(feeding season) if may attempt to copulate if they get the chance, specially rattlesnakes, they seem to mate at any givin chance. Randy little buggers. Non-breeders may continue to feed year around(if conditions permit)

Now the important parts, the breeding season usually correlates with the lowest availability of food, and the feeding season, of course, correlates with the highest availibility of food.

To understand this, in the areas like the U.S. prey is normally scarce in late fall, winter and early spring, so thats when most of our snake species participate in reproduction. Then those snakes time the arrivial of offspring to the abundance of their intended prey. Which in our case is the monsoon season, in many other areas its the wet season. Or in the northern areas like yours is mid-summer. of course there are thousands of local variations.

In much of the tropics, breeding season occurs in the dry season, which is hotter then the wet season. So they become inactive in the dry and hot. Are they hibernating there in the heat?

In some areas of consistant conditions, they may base their seasons on prey or simply breed year around. Now consider, some of these species are the same species that occur in your area. So sir, its not so much about species.

What that means for you is, in colder areas, the breeders normally move to close proxcimity of each other, to den, or to congregate(tightly or loosely), that is, use a smaller part of their range. The non-breeders simply conserve energy. That is, stay where ever they are at the time adverse conditions arrive.

You may or may not call that hibernation, but then consider, they conserve energy at all times of the year on a daily, weekly or monthly basis. So its a very inappropreiate term. I hope this helps. FR

Thanks for your thought Frank. I do appreciate your insights. A few thought of my own as I was reading yours,

< the U.S. prey is normally scarce in late fall, winter and early spring, >

I would agree with this to a degree but I do find it notable that I see fewer snakes with recent meals and more available mammalian prey under AC in Oct and Nov than at any time. Voles, deer mice and other rodents are happily nesting with young and generally abundant and most snakes seem very uninterested in all these easy feeding opportunities surrounding them. These are clearly snakes that are not interested in feeding.

< I am not confined by Kentucky or Wi. snake behaviors. Which makes me wonder why you keep bringing up ariz snakes,>

Nor am I. I do focus on Ky but I have made many trips both north and south of Ky in pursuit of herps. I gauge my timing on when I think I will be most successful and I feel fortunate to say I have had some great trips. For example, I plan trips to south Florida in winter and northern Illinois in May. My rationale. Snakes behave differently in different areas. Yes, they still maintain the same life functions, reproduction, foraging etc.. Its just that the habitat the environment dictates when these activities occur.

< You may or may not call that hibernation, but then consider, they conserve energy at all times of the year on a daily, weekly or monthly basis. So its a very inappropreiate term. I hope this helps. >

This I agree with. Its just that period of prolonged energy conservation in northern climes is so notable it warrants special consideration thus the terms often applied such as hibernation, brumation, etc..simply lables.

Thanks once again for your thoughts Frank.

Phil

Your grabbing straws. you said
[color=red}Nor am I. I do focus on Ky but I have made many trips both north and south of Ky in pursuit of herps. I gauge my timing on when I think I will be most successful and I feel fortunate to say I have had some great trips. For example, I plan trips to south Florida in winter and northern Illinois in May. My rationale. Snakes behave differently in different areas. Yes, they still maintain the same life functions, reproduction, foraging etc.. Its just that the habitat the environment dictates when these activities occur.

You said, you gauge your trips on when you think you will be most successful. Hmmmmmmmm I can tell you when that is, in spring to early summer(mid-june depending on area) when the mass temps are at their lowest and surface temps are at their most suitable. So snakes normally living underground are forced to seek more suitable conditions like AC and natural cover. Or after heavy rains when a percentage of the populations if force into areas they do not normally use. You also said, trips north and south, hmmmmmmmm of what? compared to what? Have you looked at L.g.s. in southern Neuvo Leon? Are they doing what yours are doing. Wait, you have not even seen what yours are doing yet?

My concern is, why not investigate when they are not easy to find. You see, thats when they are doing important life events. You still seem to avoid knowledge of their nesting, clutches and groups of neonates. While thats a small example of their natural history its very important in the understanding of what they are doing. But your avoiding that all together.

You said,
would agree with this to a degree but I do find it notable that I see fewer snakes with recent meals and more available mammalian prey under AC in Oct and Nov than at any time. Voles, deer mice and other rodents are happily nesting with young and generally abundant and most snakes seem very uninterested in all these easy feeding opportunities surrounding them. These are clearly snakes that are not interested in feeding

Again you dwell on feeding as key and the whole of their lifes. I have mentioned many times that feeding supports life, its not life. Why are they feeding? to support lifes activities.

Snakes do not feed all the time, they feed when they need to. Its very obvious that the events you stated were at times they had no need to feed. As in, they were not hungry. How simple is that?

Also, there are many many other behaviors that we see that are hard to explain, but commonly occur. With many of our study animals, they live and sit with their prey, but feed a distance away on the same species they are sitting with????????????? I have lots of theories and hypothosese, but thats all. I have done some tests. The the results are still theory.

Are you getting the picture yet, you formed hard beliefs, yet there are many other explainations to the events you see, not just the ones you think.

You said,
This I agree with. Its just that period of prolonged energy conservation in northern climes is so notable it warrants special consideration thus the terms often applied such as hibernation, brumation, etc..simply lables

In another post I mentioned if you asked the right question, I would give an appropriate answer. So, why does a percentage of our snakes hibernate(by our difinition) and another of the same population don't?????????????????? because sir, that is the case. Some go dormant and some do not. Now if better questions were asked, we may get little better understanding.

I suggest to you, make a list of known life events, all of them, from hatchling to death, and check of each one as you understand how to repeatedly view them. Then you may get a small idea of what those snakes around your house are doing. Until then your simply guessing and living in a giant paradign.

Consider, with many of our study subjects we commonly see all major life events, yet all that taught us was, there were so many variations, we are even more confused. FR

Frank, I'm seriously considering everything you say. I'm thinking right now about reproductive systems, behavior, and ecology in snakes.

You always want me to ask questions, so here's a couple. I've always heard the Eastern massasauga usually produces young only every other year, sometimes every three years. What could be the reason for that? Could it be their feeding season is so short they don't have enough energy supplies to reproduce every year? Is it possible they don't even mate every year, if the females are not going to the hibernaculum, or where the adults congregate?

Thanks...Terry

They are live bearers that have large young and they are fall breeders. Not enough time to get the weight back on to breed. A lot of live bearers are every other year breeders.

Canebrakes in Georgia often breed every other year. A couple years ago they had a ton of rain like this year and the following year it seemed all the females produced. There were babies everywhere. Most years though it seems to be half of the females.

Later Jason

Thanks, Jason. Good info.

Maybe a lot of rattlers have the ability to retain sperm until they are ready to have babies and maybe they go through the regular behaviors for females of their species even when they don't have babies. I have a couple Asian ratsnake species that have this ability to retain sperm from fall breedings and use it when the females think the time is right. Pretty amazing.

I guess I brought up this example of the massasauga because snakes sometimes have behaviors that are different from other snakes. It's not always the same, and I think we need to look at individual species too, when we are defining what their season is like, how active they are, what they are doing at any particular time, etc.

Thanks for the input

Terry

Here is some info for you to chew on.

I have been visiting a particular hibernaculum for the past 3 years. It is in the basement of a house that was built in the late 1800's and has not been lived in since 1973 or so. This house is in northwest Missouri where the temps get quite cold during the winter months. Not unusual for the night time temps to drop down around 5 F. Day temps can range from 45 to around 10 F. The temps in the basement have never reached below 33 F and average around 42 F. (averages for my visits).

This basement is well below the frost line and the old farm house is a 3 story house. The basement is dirt floor and has the old clay tiles laid down for the floor. There is a drain for the cistern and a drain that leads out into the old cellar.

I have found as many as 12 black rat snakes and 3 eastern yellow belley racers at one time. I have visited this site in the months of December and January, and always find snakes there. They overwinter in a certain corner in the basement under some of the tiles. The spot is right next to the cistern drain and water is almost always present at the drain mouth. The snakes are in a spot that is safe from water reaching them, as it will drain down the 2 drains before soaking their hibernaculum.

Here are my observations:

1. Not one of the snakes has ever been in ecdysis
2. Not one of the snakes has ever had a lump in it to indicate it was actively feeding during the winter months.
3. Every single time I have been there, the snakes were very torpid and moved very very slowly. Not offering to bite or even try to escape, not even the racers. I have pulled them out one by one to count, placing them in a 5 gallon bucket, and never has anyone of them tried to even climb out.
4. Of the snakes found, a juvenile or hatchling has never been present. However, in the cellar, I have found first season hatchlings and yearlings, and they acted the same way.

These observations lead me to believe:

1. These snakes do not eat during hibernation.
2. They move much slower, if at all, becuase of the temps. I would have thought that by me messing with them, they would not feel secure enough to keep using the hibernaculum. But I guess they have used it for generations, so that is where they keep returning.
3. Hatchlings and yearlings do not overwinter with sub-adults/adults for some reason.

Unfortunately, this house has been bought, and the present owner wants it restored and all snakes vacated. This, Im sure will put a hurt on the snake population there, and I will miss being able to go there and check out these snakes while in hibernation. It was an awesome experience, one that Im sure I will not be able to indulge again. Probably a once in a lifetime find.

But this is some info that I think you will find interesting. I feel that the snakes from out west are in a totally different world than the snakes in the mid-west and northern U.S. The temps are so vastly different, that there cannot be any comparison in snake activity between the 2 regions (Western and Northern/Mid-west). I have been herping in AZ during the winter months, and I can tell you that it is way different than it is here in KY and MO. I herped in Yuma, Phoenix, and Flagstaff, and even in those 3 locales, the temp ranges were vastly different.

I commend the work you have done out there, but you have to agree that what goes on in AZ, does not happen here in KY or MO. It just cant. Different temps, ground type, moisture content, and other factors that come into play.

Brian Baker
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RATS
1.0 Corn snake "Warpath"(KY locale)
1.0 Black rat snake "Havok" (KY locale)
1.1 Black rat snakes "Reaper and Mystique" (MO locale)
1.0 Albino Black rat snake "Malakai" (Dwight Good stock)
1.0 Everglades rat snake "Deadpool" (Dwight Good stock)
0.1 Greenish rat snake "Rogue" (Dwight Good stock)
1.0 Great plains rat snake "Reign Fire" (TX locale)
1.0 Grey rat snake "Punisher" (White oak phase)(Dwight Good stock)

Good luck and Happy Herping
Brian

The only real difference is distance from the surface. As a small example, in Yuma, did you find adult gophersnakes in winter? you mostly found juvi's I bet. Where were the adults?

No babies(in the ratsnake den) huh? I bet in the spring the first thing you find is babies, why?

What you fellas are missing is, while the weather is different and the weather forces the snakes to do the same things in different places, the things they are doing are the same things.

For instance, when do those ratsnakes breed? when do those gophersnakes breed? When do both lay eggs? when do the babies hatch? Hmmmmmmmmmmmm How could that be? as you mentioned the weather is so darn different, yet the results are so darn similar. hmmmmmmmmmmm makes a person think(chew on).

I think they do all that stuff at nearly the exact same time. As least within a couple weeks, how on earth can that happen if the weather is so darn different? And they are doing totally different things.

If the gophersnakes are any dang snake for that matter are so active and free to do stuff in winter, why arn't they breeding?

If you really want a closer comparison, ask the same questions about Green Ratsnakes. Yes, they too are doing those important life events at the same time as their frozen cousins. How on earth can that happen?

Its too bad that basement will be destroyed, because I have to wonder do the same individuals coil next to the same individuals, year after year. Or didn't you check that out? What sexs were next to what sexes? and lastly why did the numbers differ from year to year. Don't touch them or it will muck that up. Take pics and put them on your computer and blow the pics up, you can find tons of identifying marks.

If this was math, knowing the snakes became active and bred in the same months and the babies hatched in the same months, would absolutely mean the adults were doing the same things at the same time. Even if the conditions are different. Good thing it ain't math. Whoops sorry, science does make it math. Hmmmmmm FR

What? No regals?

Nice pics.
-----
Mike
http://www.freewebs.com/badyear2005
Check it out ^ Loss for loss for my year.

Frank, Phil, and others. I don't have much time, I'm on my lunch time at work, but wanted you to know I have seen your thread today. I have a couple minutes, but doubt if I can respond further until this evening.

I don't respond to everything, but I think I've read everything in these threads. First let me say, Frank, thanks for the photos and info about the willards and leps. That was great. I don't have too much experience with crotes, and I'm learning from yours. I'm also learning there's much difference bt. conditions in AZ in winter and WI or MI in winter. I agree with a lot of what you say. I also agree with and understand what Phil is saying.

I've been reading up on ecology and behavior. I think lots of people read the literature, especially the scientists, and it's important info and data to consider. I've also noted that they use the term "hibernation" very often, rather than a host of other terms. However, I now believe that much of our problems are with terminology and semantics, and so, I will show you how I'm changing my thinking to suit the situation, and my new ideas.

I week, or so, ago, Hugh gave us a formula (something like...caloric intake plus hydrolic intake plus thermoregulating opportunities equals production of babies...not an exact quote). I would like to suggest a broader formula to include resting opportunities with lowered metabolism. You know snakes do not always operate at the same metabolism. Whether we call it hibernation, brumation, or estivation, the snakes are lowering their metabolism when they are resting.

I no longer use the term hibernation very often (very restricted). I use brumation more often, but even this term can be inadequate, because it needs to be defined, so it won't be misinterpreted. I think snakes have reduced activity in winter and other times of the year, depending where they are at. I think there's times when they can regulate and lower their metabolism when they are resting. I believe I've even seen snakes sleeping before, even though they have their eyes open. Ever startle a basking snake that doesn't react until you touch it? In other words, I believe snakes can be at rest, and can be at rest at many different temperatures, not doing anything except passing time until conditions get better. I believe there's times when they can go for extended periods w/o having to eat or process food.

What's happening underground is not something that is written about very often. There needs to be a lot more research in those areas. I think we should concentrate on things we do know about. The general idea here is what is happening in different areas the snakes' ranges and what we know about the conditions. In captivity it's what we know about the species and it's maintenance, what works, etc. Let's hope we can work together and not oppose each other.

Sometimes the student, sometimes the teacher, always something..haha

Terry

Hello Terry, I have been keeping up with the threads you and Frank have been having with interest. I like good discussion and I don't mind alternate views as long as its all cordial and there is a respectful tone. I have always considered you very much a gentleman and the dialogue with Frank has been great.

I think you bring up an excellent point about some of the definitions involved in the discussion such as hibernation, brumation and in some of the conversation Frank and I have been having, dormancy. I guess these terms need to be defined so we are not arguing the same points lol!

I'm back to work early in the AM so my involvement in all of this will be scaled back to some degree. If we just had more time!

All the best to you! Phil

Thanks, Phil. You know I like a good discussion too. These threads have been enlightening in some good ways. I can't wait to get to AZ to do some studies down there

Terry