Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I found an Irian (west Paupan) I want that is posted as black and white phase. Are these pure Irians or a cross? Does anyone know any history of these? Also, if you have any pics, I would like to see some. What would I get if I crossed it with a normal Irian? I would like some background on black and white phase before I buy.

Thanks

Nick
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1.1 Cal Kings
1.1 Northern Pines
1.2 Honduran Boas
0.1 Tangerine Honduran Milks
1.2 Pueblan Milks
1.2 Blue Beauties
1.1 Irian Jaya Carpet Pythons

I have in fact seen pictures of a "melanistic" IJ carpet in the kingsnake.com photo gallery. They were pretty much black and white and definately legitimate (pure IJs). They did not appear to be crossed with anything. If you poke around here in the photo gallery under "carpet/diamond" pythons you will be able to find them. You'll know them when you see them!!!!

I wonder if this is the bloodline you are considering??

- Joe

The melanistic was interesting, but not exactly what I was looking for.

Also, I misread the ad. He said it was black and yellow, not black and white. I would really like to find a black and white one though, similar to the ivory jungles. The yellow in the pics wasn't too pronounced yet, so I got confused.

Thanks,

Nick
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1.1 Cal Kings
1.1 Northern Pines
1.2 Honduran Boas
0.1 Tangerine Honduran Milks
1.2 Pueblan Milks
1.2 Blue Beauties
1.1 Irian Jaya Carpet Pythons

Got any pics of that snake you're talking about??? I want to see a black and yellow IJ Sure its not mixed w/ a jungle? If you want a black and white one you will probably need an axanthic, maybe mixed with a melanistic or something.. I dont know.

Metalpest, you saw that male coastal I had posted pics of on the "carpet/diamond" sub-forum. The message was titled, "Could it be axanthic?" You responded. I plan to breed that male with my female IJ this season. If he really is axanthic, it would be the first step towards producing B&W Irian Jayas. Some how I dont think Im that lucky, but who knows???

I'll let you know how it goes...

Joe

Joe, you said:

" I plan to breed that male with my female IJ this season. If he really is axanthic, it would be the first step towards producing B&W Irian Jayas. Some how I dont think Im that lucky, but who knows???"

I don't mean to be picky but that would be a cross that I hope you would represent honestly when you come to selling the offspring. After all, your breeding may produce B W carpets but they certainly won't be pure Irian Jayas since your axanthic looking male you plan to use is a coastal.

-Yasser
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Thanks for clearing that one up for me, Yasser.
Had you not said anything I would have gone on to assume that mating a pure coastal with a pure IJ would produce all pure IJs.

Come on! I may be young, arrogant, and inexperienced, but give me some credit! I wouldnt even consider selling the offspring as anything other than 50/50 IJ/coastal crosses. Pictures of both parents would be included as well. If my male does prove out axanthic and I mate the offspring of him and the female IJ together they would be sold as axanthics with 50% IJ influence. Pretty much the same way Irian Jaya Jags are advertised.

No... If I want to misrepresent my animals I'll just go out and buy a Macklotts and a Chondro to mate with my carpets, then sell their offspring as potential breeders.

- Joe

Joe,
I did not take you as young, arrogant or inexperienced. I merely red the words you typed. If you are feeling hostile about my comment. It was not my intention. You stated you were crossing your two carpets in an attempt to someday create BW Irian Jayas. So I simply took it that way.
Also, to prove that coastal is axanthic, you must first produce a baby that shows the same traits and then prove it can be passed on. So this one breeding will not prove out any axanthism just yet. So you are looking at 2 generations before you will know.

As far as your last comment goes, I don't know what you are referring to there. Seems like a shot in the dark. Just relax and conversate. No need for egos, just honesty.

-Yasser
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Sorry, Yasser. I didn't mean to come off as hostile, but I did take a little offense to you not giving me the benefit of the doubt when it comes to the offspring of the possibly axanthic male and that female IJ. I would have thought that after all my huffing and puffing about hybrid breeders not being honest about their snakes fertility, that you would see me as a man of integrity. Anyhow, I proclaim myself to be "young, arrogant, and inexperienced" (especially arrogant), you never said I was.

I have been witness to several of your online debates here and you have always conducted yourself in a mature and friendly manner. Im sorry I did not show you the same.

I have nothing but respect for you, Yasser. I sincerely hope that all of your breeding projects go well for you this season and I very much look forward to seeing what you produce in the future. I cant wait to see what you do with those crazy looking IJs!

Also, I do realize that if my male coastal is axanthic, its probably recessive and will take at least 2 generations to prove.

Sorry for letting my ego get in the way of what should have been a fun debate.

- Joe

The pic is posted in this thread just below by safaridave, who thinks its a jungle.

I recall your axanthic, and I really liked it, which was why I posted about it. I also like the small size of the irians, I don't really want a big snake. I'd like to see if it proves out. When searching the net earlier, I came across a breeder with a proven axanthic line, I think they were in Europe somewhere though.
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1.1 Cal Kings
1.1 Northern Pines
1.2 Honduran Boas
0.1 Tangerine Honduran Milks
1.2 Pueblan Milks
1.2 Blue Beauties
1.1 Irian Jaya Carpet Pythons

You're right about seeing an axanthic somewhere in Europe...

The guys at "precision reptiles" have the only known axanthic line in the world.

For now

Yes, that was it. I looked at so many sites for black and whites that I forgot which one had the axanthics, and I didn't care to sift through them all again to find the name. I hope yours proves out too, I really liked the pics.
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1.1 Cal Kings
1.1 Northern Pines
1.2 Honduran Boas
0.1 Tangerine Honduran Milks
1.2 Pueblan Milks
1.2 Blue Beauties
1.1 Irian Jaya Carpet Pythons

Thanks a lot

I have had both Western Papauns and Jungles, and those pics in that add looked nothing like a WP (aka Irian Jaya). I think it was a jungle that was either misslabled, or something, but that was not an WP. It looked more jungle and nothing like an Irian Jaya. Just my opinion, Here is the pic, its in the kingsnake.com pic gallery.

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"Life is a Safari"

After awhile, they all begin to look alike I still think the IJ genes filtered down to Oz many years ago....since some Jungles look very much like IJs.

It's breeding season at my house for both. Nothing from the Coastals, yet.
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1.1 Blackheaded pythons
1.1 Woma (Juvie female)
2.1 Aussie Olives
1.1 Timors
1.0 Angolan Juvie
1.1 Savu
1.1 Juvie Bloods
1.1 Juvie Balls
1.1 IJ Carpets
1.1 Coastal Carpets
1.2 Macklotts
1.1 Papuan Olives
0.1 Jungle Carpet
2.2 Scrubs (on breeding loan)
1.0 Jungle/Diamond cross
0.1 child, CB
0.1 wife, WC

What I was likeing about this Paupan was the way it looked different, but now that you mention it, it does look like a jungle. He cannot recall who produced it or verify if the genetics are pure, so it may be mislabled.
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1.1 Cal Kings
1.1 Northern Pines
1.2 Honduran Boas
0.1 Tangerine Honduran Milks
1.2 Pueblan Milks
1.2 Blue Beauties
1.1 Irian Jaya Carpet Pythons

The same question was asked on moreliapythons.com, a mecca for morelia keepers, and it seemed that everyone agreed that it looked more like a Jungle than an Irian Jaya. If it was a strange different looking Irian jaya, I would think he would be asking a little more for it. It sure looks like a jungle to me.
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"Life is a Safari"

That snake in the pic listed in the advertisement on KS IS a Jungle. It has absolutely no charcateristics of an Irian other than being a carpet python. No Irian influence can be seen in that guy......mislabeled.

On the other hand, all Aussie stock IS descended from New Guinea stock, so a few close matches are bound to turn up eventually.
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1.1 Blackheaded pythons
1.1 Woma (Juvie female)
2.1 Aussie Olives
1.1 Timors
1.0 Angolan Juvie
1.1 Savu
1.1 Juvie Bloods
1.1 Juvie Balls
1.1 IJ Carpets
1.1 Coastal Carpets
1.2 Macklotts
1.1 Papuan Olives
0.1 Jungle Carpet
2.2 Scrubs (on breeding loan)
1.0 Jungle/Diamond cross
0.1 child, CB
0.1 wife, WC

Well, in theory you are not wrong. There are key elements you did not bring up including genetic isolation and species radiation that make things a bit more complicated. But I understand your comment. But I would tend to think that an IJ carpet would be much more closely related to a Darwin Carpet than a Jungle by your standards.

-Yasser
SR

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I agree with you completely about the Darwin carpets. Much like the D'Alberts and scrubs...especially the former. Geographical isolation is also a big thing in some of the mountain kingsnakes here. On the other hand, look at the lack of inbreeding between Marine and Land Iguanas on the Galapagos. I know there's some talk of it, especially on Jeff Corwin's show, but unless you've been there to see the habitats (I have), there are countless opportunities for it to happen, and it should have happened a long time ago.

Still, every so often, a trait will pop back up and surprise us. Care to guess how many human babies are routinely born with small tails?
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1.1 Blackheaded pythons
1.1 Woma (Juvie female)
2.1 Aussie Olives
1.1 Timors
1.0 Angolan Juvie
1.1 Savu
1.1 Juvie Bloods
1.1 Juvie Balls
1.1 IJ Carpets
1.1 Coastal Carpets
1.2 Macklotts
1.1 Papuan Olives
1.0 Jungle Carpet
2.2 Scrubs (on breeding loan)
0.1 Jungle/Diamond cross
0.1 child, CB
0.1 wife, WC

Until someone takes the time to DNA test several individuals from each of the carpet variations (wild specimens preferred), we can only speculate how closely related each is to another.

Has anyone ever bred an IJ to a centralian?

- Joe