Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I'll start this post with a habitat pic from the Ky hills. The seasons are changing and the snakes will soon be in their underground lairs where they will spend their winter dormancy. Some cold hardy species such as Thamnophis may venture to the entrances of their den sites during winter warm spells but for the most part the only life function that will occur for most species in this torpid state is the all important resetting of their biological clocks. With this I mean the formation of viable sperm in males and the pre-ovulation cool down the females require for successful reproduction. Does any other life function take place at this time? At least here, the answer is no. Telemetry studies have shown that these snakes do move but very little. The biggest issue is avoiding perilous situations like gnawing vermin such as shrews and that sort of thing. Unfortunatly even below the frost line these snakes are apparently helpless and can not even defend themselves from the attacks of these miniscule little beast. Other issues are flooding, desication and other related issues of exposure.

While I'm digressing I'll show a pic of a ringneck snake. We see hundreds of these each year and I thought I should take a pic of at least one.

Another snake we found in the field this week, an intergrade red x eastern milk snake. Like most intergradient populations this one shows intermediate characteristics though over all in favors L.t.triangulum.

And a kingsnake! Seen plenty of these this year.

Found this rat snake this afternoon on the crawl in a wooded ravine.

Anyhow, I have no doubt that herps behave differently in different areas due to the local climatic conditions that exist. Its not always a matter of what herps want but more of what they get. Species adapt and move on. In tropical areas there are wet and dry seasons. I trust Franks judgement that surface activity patterns in the American southwest are as he says. I have never been there but I have always suspected that the snake hunting sucked in June. I do find it interesting that Frank assumes there is a whole world of activity occuring beneath the frozen earth in Wi. Can you support this? Phil

Great shots Phil! I love to see pics of wild living specimens. I have been noticing an overall trend of less surface activity here in MS the last few weeks. Several snakes I caught this year and decided to keep have shut down as well. They have quit eating and stay hidden underneath their bedding......ah, the changing seasons.

Thanks Matt. You bring up a great point. Even under captive conditions our wild caught temperate zone snakes seem to have an internal timer that tells them winter is approaching and at this time they start refusing food and want to hunker down.

btw, I really enjoy all the pics you post of those outstanding holbrooki you work with! Phil

Excellent pics Phil. I love that habitat shot of Eastern Ky. I know after the winter break you'll be more then ready to get back out in the field this spring.
Post some updated pics of your Kankakee (spelling?) Bulls over on the pit forum when you get a chance. Yours are outstanding.

Steve

Thanks Steve, the habitat pic was from the knobs region of Ky just south of Louisville. These are fair sized hills but much smaller than the mountains of eastern Ky.

We actually go out all year round but the snake hunting season is winding down here. In the winter we focus on caves, spring seeps and vernal pools in pursuit of amphibians.

Thanks for the kind words regarding my bull snakes. I'll try to post some updated pics on the Pit forum. Phil

I knwo you said the Rat was on the crawl.....was the others under A C or were they out and about?
-----
www.Wood-N-Snakes.com

Thanks Toby. Of the 14 snakes we observed in the field this week only the rat snake was found on the crawl. All the others were found under tin.

btw, those walking sticks you create are fantastic! You are a gifted artist. Phil

Very cool, I have always wondered that if they are staying under A C late into the year if they are spending the winter somewhere close. I have notice the same thing in the spring, early in the year they will be under A C on warm days. Just makes me think they are staying somewhere close to the A C.
Thanks for the compliments on my sticks.
Toby
-----
www.Wood-N-Snakes.com

Toby, I have reason to believe that many snakes will even over winter under tin in rodent burrows. I wish I could look beneath the surface without destroying the habitat. I think some interesting things would be revealed! Phil

I agree Phil not only that but I also believe that it is the same for summertime when the temps get high I believe they are still there under the A C just underground as well. Just my thoughts.
Toby

And just to be clear not all snakes I mean just the ones that would be found or that make thier home under the A C where the ones I was speaking of.
-----
www.Wood-N-Snakes.com

Thats a great point Toby. I think it does work both ways as far as the utilization of AC and the space beneath. Phil

great pics as always esp. the ky.shot man i gotta come stomp around there oneday.sorry but i do side w/FR on that snakes are doing something maybe deep underground adaptation is what snakes are alllll about and i beleive the northern colubrids do have a period of inactivity or dormancy of sorts but shut down for 4months,nothing? sorry i just dont beleive it, as far as chew injurys from rodents,shrews etc. that could simply be individuals that were caught by the cold didnt go deep enough i do agree that if their body temp is very low there is noway to defend themselves but i dont beleive thats the rule but the exception w/individuals and not pops. also i would like to know why you call that milk a redXeastern? looks like true l.t.t to me? i just cant see any syspila there but maybe its the pic or my eyes :O anyway thems my pennies,,,,,,thomas davis

Hi Thomas, I think there is no benefit for survival of the species for those northern snakes to be subterranially active so my question is why would you or Frank assume they are? Telemetry studies on selected species have shown clear patterns of fall migration to hibernacula and little or no activity during the cold winter months.

I agree the milk in the pic strongly favors triangulum. This is typical of intergradient populations. Different snakes found in this area can resemble either phenotype or show intermediate characteristics of both ssps. It does keep it interesting. Often times we will find milks that would key out as reds at the same site as ones that would key out as easterns and some have characteristics of both. Thanks for the conversation. Phil

hmmm i had no idea that syspila and triangulum "keyed out" differently, i assumed like getula there were no "key" differances aside from pattern,,,,,i gotta get up on my milks!,,,,,,,thomas

Thomas, much like the getula complex the triangulum complex is basically a difference of coloration and pattern among the ssps. Between L.t.triangulum and L.t.syspila these differences would inclube higher dorsal blotch counts on easterns, reduced latteral blotching on reds, the configuration of the neck pattern at the nape difer on the two as does the coloration. Neat snakes! Phil

so what you are saying is there is no "key" differances in scalation? if thats right how did you "key" this as an intergrade?,,,,,,,,,,,thomas

Hi, Phil.

Those are some great pix as usual. KY still looks pretty good. Our woods in n. MI are still looking nice, but hardly anything is moving unless you really dig. Still a few insects and frogs. All the leaves are on the ground though.

It’s an interesting problem thinking about what snakes are doing in winter, especially if they are never seen on the surface during the Dec-Feb months, or more. I believe, in areas where the ground never freezes, like s. AZ, there probably always is some kind of activity going on. However, in the north country, we have always seen the snakes as hibernating for 5 or 6 months. Although I’m rethinking what the snakes are doing down there, I think like you for the most part about the northernmost snakes. Let me quote a couple texts that relate to our situation here.

1. This first excerpt is from the paper, “Snake Thermal Ecology: The Causes and Consequences of Body-Temperature Variation”, by Charles R. Peterson, A. Ralph Gibson, and Michael E. Dorcas, from the book, Snakes: Ecology and Behavior, 1993, edited by Richard A. Siegel and Joseph T. Collins.

“Although many species of snakes spend a considerable amount of time hibernating, it has been difficult to obtain body temperatures from hibernating snakes because they are usually inaccessible underground. The use of radiotelemetry during the past 20 years has greatly improved our understanding of body-temperature variation in hibernating snakes. The general pattern of body temperature variation for hibernating snakes studied so far appears to be a gradual decline in body temperature from the fall into late winter and then a gradual increase in body temperature until spring emergence (Jacob and Painter, 1980; Gregory, 1982; Macartney et al., 1989; Weatherhead, 1989). For example, Crotalus viridis lutosus in the desert in southeastern Idaho entered hibernation during October and emerged in May. Mean body temperatures decreased from approximately 12*C in mid-November to a minimum of 6*C in late February and then increased to approximately 7.5*C by late April.” P. 277-78 with charts/graphs.

2. Another interesting piece of literature is the account of the common kingsnake, Lampropeltis getula, in the book, Amphibians and Reptiles of New Mexico, 1996, by Degenhardt, Painter, and Price. It includes these quotes…

“Annual activity in New Mexico extends from April to October with a peak in July.”

“Common kingsnakes probably hibernate below the frostline using rodent burrows, fractured rocky outcrops, or man-made structures such as foundations, wells, and cisterns, but no hibernaculum have been discovered in New Mexico.”

Although we don’t see any data here, and the authors use words like “probably”, I still think these authors are very experienced and know more than I do. I would think a lot of herpers reading about the herps of New Mexico would be of a similar mind. However, I also think that more research on winter acitvity would probably turn up some new twists to this question/answer. I don’t think there’s been enough research done on wintering snakes in the Southern states.

I especially like thinking about the common kingsnake, and when I was in s. Ohio, yrs. ago, I could only find them on the surface from about April to October, at the latest. Although the ground didn’t freeze, we did have quite low temperatures, like in the 30’s, in the winter. I think the black kings there were well adapted to the cold winters and had a long rest period with little activity, no eating, and low metabolism. Babies I worked with were very difficult to keep going past Sept/Oct. I think getula probably has a winter rest period in the southernmost part of its range also, but not as much obviously. It only goes to northern Mexico and is not a tropical snake. I doubt it needs to be active year ‘round to accomplish its life functions. And, yet, there is still the possibility it could be winter active. Some herpers think they are. It could be partially active underground, surfacing occasionally with appropriate conditions, and still be resting a lot of the time. I think the whole activity thing has a lot of potential for research.

TC

Here's a black king from s. Ohio, 2004...

Thanks Terry. Interesting citations as well. You bring up a good point in that there is much published information noting winter inactivity in various species in northern climes. I have seen a few selected species such as Thamnophis and Regina venturing out in warm sunny spells during the winter but these are the exceptions and not the rule, and I spend a great deal of time in the woods all year long. Got to love those sally's in the winter months! This does all make for great discussion. Nice looking nigra too! Phil

I know we can probably beat this to death but here goes...

First I think you guys have some assumptions about the temps at which snakes can function that are off. For example my local Az. Black rattlesnakes may not feed, but they certainly move, shed and even breed at the temps cited above for wintering lutosus. The local milks we have here in northern Az. are moving, feeding and breeding at temps in the mid- fifties (which is why everybody thinks they are so rare, they go home before the milks even come out because they think it is too cold). As I stated in an earlier post, my captive pyros move, drink and shed at temps in the thirties, same for my Az. milks. I can keep them in the thirties all winter and they are no more torpid than at any other time of year. They are alert and cognizant of me and what I am doing while I check on them. How can one say with any certainty what snakes are doing in the winter if one cannot actually see them? And finding a couple of garters imobile under a rock at thirty degrees F speaks for only those particular garters, not the population as a whole. As Frank asked "where are the rest of the members of the local population, and what are they doing?" And why are these few snakes found near the surface during the winter there in the first place when we are all in agreement that temps down lower are probably considerably warmer that at the surface? From 40 years of keeping snakes in captivity and observing them in the wild I do know for fact that snakes that are sick during the winter, or those who had a bad foraging season will seek colder areas to conserve resources. Well fed healthy snakes will seek warmer places and be considerably more active.

Telemetry may be great for following/locating snakes and giving temp readings but it cannot tell what those snakes are doing if you cannot see them. My winter conditions here in Flag most certainly compare with those in Michigan or Wisconsin or New York. Except for the rocky parts of the den itself which melt off, the area around the dens are packed with ca.~three feet of snow for the duration of the winter (which makes hiking in with pack and telemetry equipement a real PITA). Our telemetered cerbs do indeed go to their respective dens, and the signal says they are they are not going anywhere, but what are they doing down there? I cannot make any assumptions without seeing them. For all I know it could be like a party at the Playboy mansion! I do know I find them breeding at temps in the 40's and 50's when they emerge in spring. So why couldn't they be breeding all winter down in the grotto? We did place some I-buttons which record body temps at standard intervals in some snakes this year so in the future I will be able to provide some accurate winter body temps for these guys. I think everybody is too bound by old schools of thought as to what reptiles do. Heck, during the winter here in Flag, my wife is freezing and stays indoors where it is warm. My brother in law likes it cold and will be out and about all winter but in summer he can't bring himself to crawl out from under the air conditioner. I'm out in all conditions. But because my wife says indoors all winter does not mean we can make tha tassumption for teh human population as a whole.

FWI Terry, getula are definately surface active during the winter in Az. I fact my cousin and I found one crawling along in a shaded portion of Pima canyon last January at about 0900 hrs. Ambient temp was right around 50F. Well, ..I'm off to bed

Thanks, Rich. That was a great post.

I don't mean to beat it to death either and I thank you for responding. I'm doing the literature search because I had a point too which has been discounted considerably, as well as Phil's yesterday. I just wanted to make the citations, so people don't say we're making up this stuff. We are used to not seeing snakes for much of the winter. It takes time to change a mindset, especially for someone not experiencing other environments. Now, I'll say you AZ guys are educating us. What you are saying is pointing us in a new direction.

I understand what you're saying about snakes being active at 50-60*F, and if these temps are maintained and the snakes are healthy, I agree. I don't have any snakes that can digest at those temps, they need higher temps to do that, but I'm sure the AZ snakes can find higher temps too. In AZ I'm sure some are active and some not all winter. But here in MI, or WI, I'm not sure snakes can find places that are that warm. When the ground is frozen three ft. deep, I'm not sure there is a warm spot (50-60*). I'm not sure they can go deeper than a set number of feet that has to do with cracks or burrows. And even if they were active at those temps, how long would it be before they starve, if they couldn't digest? These are questions I'm struggling with right now.

Rich, don't think I don't believe what you guys are saying. The struggle is in getting to that higher plateau of understanding, consciousness, if you will. Think like a snake. I'm going to get to the best situation I can in winter and do what I need to do. In AZ that might mean I might be moving around looking for others of my kind. In MI I might be with others of my kind, but I might not be doing much. Sometimes I would say I'm active, but other times I would say I'm resting and not doing anything, including metabolizing. I might be active if I was moving around in my den. Other times I might stay in the same spot for months not doing anything except breathing...extreme conservation.

Thanks guys...TC

PS: We are bound by old, outdated thoughts, if that's all we have to go by. That's why we always need teachers and learners, so we can keep moving forward

Great info Rich and it certainly gives me something to think about. I do think its best not to think in absolutes and you put forth some good examples. I do wonder if snakes behave differently in various areas for what ever reason or if there is indeed a gap in knowledge. I have had a different experience with some of the N.A. colubrids I have over wintered over the years and some not so good! Years ago I recall losing a couple of snakes that I decided to cool down with the others despite being in some phase of a shed cycle. In both instances I lost the snakes, shedding did not take place, and this despite the temps being no lower than 50F. The snakes had full access to water and I checked on them weekly. Basically I killed two healthy snakes by not waiting for them to shed until putting them down. I think its not coincidental that I no longer see snakes in ecdysis in the wild after early Oct. I do know that some of my snakes move slightly during winter cooling and I believe fresh water should be available at all times. My wintering conditions are generally between 50F and 55F yet when I check on my snakes every week or so I see anything but alert snakes. My snakes are in what I would best describe as a torpid state and are far from alert. The snakes I keep are your typical N.A. colubrids, Pituophis, Lampropeltis and Panthophis. Thanks once again for your insights. Very good stuff that I would not have thought. Phil