Reptile & Amphibian Forums

EASTERN BOX TURTLES and possibly ALL SUB-SPECIES OF T. carolina WILL BE ILLEGAL in PA if this proposal goes through as is. Right now you can have 2 eastern box turtles (possibly more if you have proof they did not come from PA), and any number of other subspecies of T. carolina. That means that many people currenlty legally keep two eastern box turtles, some of which were adopted or purchased as captive bred animals, or have been pets for 30 years or more. The new regs only list T. carolina as having a daily possession limit of ZERO, and does not list T. c. carolina, just T. carolina. Does this mean all subspecies will be illegal? All native species of reptiles would be illegal to bring into or out of the state of PA - what happens if you want to move with your pet? What if you want to adopt a rescued animal from out-of-state? What will happen to your currently legal pets that cannot be released because they are not native to PA, or they are captive bred or their habitat is not there any more?

No breeding of native reptiles would be allowed.

Non-native subspecies of snakes, lizards, and other turtles such as western painteds might also be banned, because the current wording only lists species, not subspecies.

There are some GOOD changes in here, especially concerning the
snapping turtles and rattlesnake round-ups, but there is much that needs to be changed before these would be good regulations, IMO. Stopping the collection of reptiles from the wild it a good thing ("sustainable harvest" is an oxymoron when it comes to chelonians - there is no such thing due to thier natural history), but there's no need to ban currently legal pets.

PA is still trying to treat reptiles as a game species, and they are not. It might be good to remind the FBC that surrounding states - OH, NJ, MD - allow the possession, breeding, and sale of native CAPTIVE BRED reptiles with permits and paperwork. MD's permit system is 11 years old, and for the most part, DNR is happy with it, and so are the hobbyists. I do think they need to stop the collection of wild box turtles, but these regs might do more harm than good, unless they are changed, and right now, these are only PROPOSALS, they're not written in stone.

Even if you don't live in PA, I suggest you read this and make
comments - regulations and laws have a way of skipping from one
state to another once passed. The more people that comment, the better. Remember the grammar, syntax, punctuation, and spell-check, honey attracts more than vinegar, and all of that.

Katrina

> ------------------------------------
>
> The proposed regulations are currently up for public comment for ninety days, from October 15th through January 15th. Comments concerning the proposed reptile and amphibian regulations can be mailed to:
>
> Douglas J. Austen, Ph.D., Executive Director
> Pennsylvania Fish and Boat Commission
> PO Box 67000
> Harrisburg, PA 17106
>
> Or emailed through the PFBC's website: www.fish.state.pa.us
>
> Copies of the new regulations are available at
> http://sites.state.pa.us/PA_Exec/Fish_Boat...ngs/175nprp.htm

I just read the proposal and I agree with most of the points that you made. The proposal indicates a 0 possession limit for Box, Wood, Spotted, etc. which would make it illegal to possess those turtles as pets in PA. I disagree with this because as you said many of us have these animals in our possession already and need to be at least grandfathered from this rule. I will write a letter defining that to the Fish Commission.

I do feel that these species need protected from being collected in the wild, and the regulations here could be even tighter in my opinion.

The proposal does deal exclusively with Native Herps so there is no issue here with keeping, breeding, selling non native species in PA as long as you don't release them into the wild.

Ridge

Actually there is an issue with non native herps as they don't narrow it down to subspecies. It covers just the general species, which for some includes a whole mess of non native herps.

What's up turtle fans,

I operate a nonprofit reptile rescue in PA that gets a handful of WC Eastern Box Turtles in every year after they have spent a few years as "pets" in captivity. Obviously we can't just release them in the wild at that point, and the proposed herp regs will change how our rescue will have to deal with box turtles, so I have spoken to several folks at PA Fish and Boat Commission.

Chris Urban, head reptile guy at PFBC, assured me that they plan to grandfather in box turtles already in captivity. He said the scenario will probably include a period of one year after the regs go into effect for box turtle owners to apply for a grandfather permit. Discussions of legal breeding programs are at least on the radar, even if they may take some time.

I also talked to Jeff Bridi, the head enforcement guy at PFBC for Southeast Pennsylvania. He assured me that PFBC does not have the time or desire to look for people selling out-of-state box turtle subspecies. PFBC only has enough resources to go after are the major offendors -- they aren't going to be looking for technicalities to bother hobbyists, like having a FL Box Turtle or some other subspecies that's not native to PA.

Unfortunately, despite the improvements, PA's Herp Regs are a bit primitive. However, these proposed changes would be a huge step in the right direction. Several wildlife groups have been urging PFBC to ban Box Turtle collection for years, and if PFBC doesn't do it, state legislature will anyway (PA house bill 1908) so don't let the box turtle changes keep you from supporting the new regs.

These new herp regs take huge strides toward stopping Rattlesnake Roundups of the candidate species Timber Rattlesnake, which every herp advocate can agree is a good thing. There are about a dozen states where the Timber is endangered, threatened, or otherwise protected. Even though the Timber is a candidate species in PA, PA is still the only state in the Northeast to allow roundups. It is long overdue to tighten the rules against roundups, and the proposed regs do that very well.

I encourage everyone to send suggestions to PFBC during the comment period until Jan 15th. However, if you're thinking about objecting to the new regs based on one or two working points, please first consider if the pros outweigh the cons. I would hate to see countless herp populations lose a great deal of protection over a couple minor hobbyists issues.

To view the proposed regs, click below:

sites.state.pa.us/PA_Exec/Fish_Boat/rulemakings/175nprp.htm

To send online feedback to PFBC about the new regs, click below:
www.state.pa.us/papower/cwp/view.asp?a=1093&Q=438140&PM=1
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Jesse Rothacker
Forgotten Friend Reptile Sanctuary
Find out how YOU can get involved in reptile rescue...
www.forgottenfriend.org

"I encourage everyone to send suggestions to PFBC during the comment period until Jan 15th. However, if you're thinking about objecting to the new regs based on one or two working points, please first consider if the pros outweigh the cons. I would hate to see countless herp populations lose a great deal of protection over a couple minor hobbyists issues."

Jesse,

These proposals aren't all or nothing, right? Since they are PROPOSALS right now I had presumed that public comments could be made to tweak the suggested proposals. Such as creating a permit system for CB animals while banning wild collection, and making it more coslty for rattlesnake round-ups, or preventing round-ups all together. If you think anyone here would obeject to the whole thing, then you haven't been paying attention to our comments. I don't think anyone here objects to the entire thing.

Also, I don't think having one's long time pet confiscated over poorly worded regulations is a "minor hobbyist issue". If PAFBC doesn't intend to confiscate non-native animals, then they should exclude those in the regulations to begin with, by including only those subspecies native to PA in the regulations. It's not hard - other states do it. Also keep in mind that box turtles can lay viable eggs for up to five years after mating - and box turtles kept in naturalistic pens lay eggs fairly regularly.

As I said before, I can't see anyone here objecting to ALL changes in the regulations, because the regulations currently in effect are bad, but these proposals need public comments and NEED TO BE ALTERED BEFORE THEY'RE FINALIZED. I'm hoping that there will be drafting on these proposals?

Katrina

These proposals aren't all or nothing, right? Since they are PROPOSALS right now I had presumed that public comments could be made to tweak the suggested proposals.

Yes. Maybe what I said came out wrong. I was trying to encourage people to send some ammount of support for the new regs along with suggested changes, rather than completely objecting. And since the box turtle ban will be passed by state legislature regardless of PFBC regs, I'm saying that item alone is not worth objecting over since it is going to happen with or without the PFBC regs. The point is that roundup supporters and other "bad guys" are strongly against the new regs so wildlife speakers I've heard are really encouraging hobbyists and wildlife advocates to support them.

Also, I don't think having one's long time pet confiscated over poorly worded regulations is a "minor hobbyist issue". If PAFBC doesn't intend to confiscate non-native animals, then they should exclude those in the regulations to begin with, by including only those subspecies native to PA in the regulations.

I don't think that's a minor issue either. However, I don't think we have any reason to believe that would ever happen. PFBC barely has time to worry about native herps, no less non-native herps. You can ask any enforcement officer from PFBC and they will tell you non-native herps are not part of their jurisdiction. Granted it wouldn't hurt to add subspecies to the regs, I'd like to see that too, but PFBC doesn't regulate anything non-native anyway so it would be like saying the same thing twice. That's why I'm not overly-concerned that subspecies aren't in there yet. And if people have a long time box turtle pet, they can get it grandfathered in, so how are pets being confiscated?

You bring up some great areas for improvement and hopefully they will be worked on in the future. Still I can't see anything in the proposed regs that would make me object to them, even as they are right now.

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Jesse Rothacker
Forgotten Friend Reptile Sanctuary
Find out how YOU can get involved in reptile rescue...
www.forgottenfriend.org

Well, consider this: Maryland hasn't updated their reptile regulations in 11 years, and reptiles consistently fall last in the "things to do" list when revising regulations. So, we need to make sure that whatever gets finalized in the PA revision are what we want to see for many years to come. In many ways, it's harder to get regulations changed than it is to get laws changed. So, well crafted regulations NOW wouldn't NEED to be revised for many years, but poorly crafted regulations might not be revised for many, many years as well!

Katrina