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I am not much of a field herper, but I still enjoy hearing from people who do research what snakes are doing during certain times of the year. I am wondering about a few things. Wether snakes are denning in groups or when small numbers are found here n there has it ever been noted that the snakes were hanging in sexed pairs? I am also wondering since there's been talk of if snakes feed during brumation...does anyone feel they have caused a snake in captivity to die from feeding too late in the season and cooling them with food in their bellies? Or has anyone in the field caught a snake in the act of feeding...especially on another snake during the coldest part of the year when you'd assume they were dormant? Lastly has anyones guess ever been that a gravid snake found earlier than average possibly bred during the coldest part of the year or retained sperm so late in fall that they carried developing eggs through the winter? These are difficult questions...and not many could give answers. I know a high percentage of keepers would say no....these things have not been observed and it would not be likely. I do know some breeders shrug off snakes dying over winter, as if it is just one of those things and it happens. I hope I am not asking things recently discussed as I have had little time for the net and see many posts having many many replies. I look forward to hearing what Frank and the other field herpers has to say about these things. Tom Stevens

Has anyone noticed their females carrying ova over winter. I believe I see this quite often in captives but I am wondering if anybody else has noticed. Currently at least one of my corns seems to be doing just this. Look a little closer at those fat females>>>
later Jason

rattlesnakes do it. I have seen it in the field and in captivity many many times.

Thanks for the response and i understand rattlers do this but almost nobody talks about it in colubrids. Please look at the post above this I started. i think it will interest you.
Thanks Jason

There are basic steps that reproductive colubrids follow.

First is to build up fat, that is the fat inside the body. This fat is quickly converted into enlarge ovum. Mature females carry ova or some similar name(corperum luta or some such thing) in their overies at all times.

So, the female swells, this is commonly termed as "in condition" or simply conditioned. That is, the female now has the reserves to cycle. To cycle is when the ovum drops out of the overies. In colubrids they form what is commonly called, the string of pearls. This is easily palpated.

When a female cycles, she often appears sick, acting strangely or if recently fed, will reguritate. This only lasts a day. As soon as the ovum drop, the female becomes receptive will cloacal gape for male/s. With in a few days of dropping of the ova, the ova grow to a point they are easily palpable.

So yes, conditioned females(swelled with reproductive fat) this is very normal. In fact, that is the plan. Wild females rarely feed before cycling and laying(they don't have to).

To cycle is to drop ova, that is, to drop them into the oviducts. So no, cycled female colubrids do not normally overwinter. Normally ova or eggs in the oviducts are processed(fertilized and shelled, then passed) or absorbed. There seems to be a very set time period for this.

Also, some females may have to build and store energy in the spring before cycling. This sort of explains why some females produce quickly after you raise temps, and others take a while. You should keep an eye out on this. They do have both these abilities.

Althought, the snakes(wild) I watch do not feed in early spring, they start feeding after laying the first clutch, then all hell breaks loose and I cannot watch them anymore. hahahahahahaha

While at talking about wild snakes, they also do not appear to need nearly as much energy as captives, as they do not swell with fat before cycling.

As HKM mentioned, our rattlesnakes are weirdos, they have ovum or embryos at very close to all times of the year, and will breed in the fall, spring, summer, or anytime the mood hits. In this sense, colubrids are clean and crotes are messing.

Remember, What I mentions is normal, there of course are lots of abnormal. Such is nature. FR

Thanks for the run down of the steps. I do not question any of this or how it is supposed to go in nature. My thoughts and questions lay in the captives we keep. I have noticed this occurrence in rat snakes and corns in particular. Though this year I picked up a alterna that seems to be carrying.

The vendor was trying to sell it off before it died of egg binding. Thing is the ova, as I believe they are, have not hardened. I have seen this go on with a corn and the number of lumps in the belly from November to March or April stayed the same and the female laid the same number of good eggs in March or April.

So my questions are not if it can happen but if anybody else has noticed it happening.

"It" would be a female(captive) going over winter with ova in the area we are used to seeing eggs/ova in breeding females during the spring. You would see these when you hold a female from the front half and you let the lower 2/3rds of her hang down. I have noticed the smaller version of the lumps normally seen in gravid females.

In my collection I have seen 2 females carry what I believe to be ova over winter. Both where corns. I saw this in two other collections of friends and they where both corns. All of the snakes have laid good eggs the following year and the numbers where the same as what I counted in the winter with the exception of one clutch which i was off by 2 one way or the other.

I am bringing this up here because I think we have a better group of minds on a nightly basis on this forum than any other colubrid forum. Seems most of the smart people on the other forum come on over pretty often.

This is way outside the accepted thinking so any thoughts will be appreciated. Also i have a Okeetee corn that i thought was going to double for me this year that is looking like what I am talking about. I have not fed for a week and a half and she looks the same so it is not processed rats in there. I will get pic for those who don't know what I am referring to.

Thanks Jason

I was wondering were you were in these conversations, I am glad you were reading them.

First, I and others have seen all sorts of confusing events. That is, many snakes overwinter with ovum or embryos in their bodies. Also, many egg laying snakes deposit their eggs in the fall and those eggs overwinter. A better question is, is this normal for the species or exceptional for the species. In the case of montane rattlesnakes(on our site) it appears very normal. Also it appears subocs normally have their eggs overwinter. In other snakes, it may or may not, be normal but still occurs of an occasional basis. So yes, it occurs, but it may or may not be normal.

A point I was making below, in my retarted effort to help is, there is a basic misunderstanding of how wild snakes work. Most including Phil, bases his thoughts of air temperature. I understand what is what we were taught(shame on those teachers) The problem is, snakes do not give a flying shack ankle about air temps. They focus on mass temps. If one was get out of a tiny box(enclosed paradign) and try to understand mass temps, they would soon realize, there is a huge range of mass temps in any givin area, including the northern parts of reptile ranges. These mass temps must include a basic minimum or exsistance is impossible.

Also consider these mass temps lag behind the season. That sir is physical law and common sense. The mass of lags behind the season. I use the term "mass" because the term substrate does not indicate volume. And volume is very important.

The sun(sun exposure is key) heats up an area that holds heat, this area, holds this heat. These areas lose mass temperature as the winter moves in. By time spring starts the mass temps are at their lowest and of course you understand the snakes then have a need to surface to warm up. So in general, the mass of their habitats, heat up in the spring, summer, fall, then drop off during the winter. But where physical law fits in is, this drop off lags behind the season. Now as importantly, these areas are of a insulating type of material AND a moisture resistant material. Water transfers heat quickly.

Why I mention the above is, these mass areas contain suitable heat for life events, even thought air temps seem inappropriate. So an individual snake with food in its stomack my venture to the surface in late fall or early winter and seem to be, out of place in our minds. But it knows it has temps that are suitable. You just don't see them.

For me, if I see this type of event, a gravid or full snake in the winter, I realize that its "real" home or heat sink, is nearby. Its evidence.

Lastly, captive conditions are very very limiting. Captive snakes(in general) do not have the same abilities as wild snakes(the reason I preach a range of temps and conditions) In nature, they can without problem hold a food bolus in very cold temps without reguritating. Also in nature, food bolus do not rot, that is, they do not bloat after consuming a prey item. I have seen many events that make you think, like a wild, ruthie, that was stuffed with lizards(scalies) until there were tails hanging out its mouth. The odd part was, is was near the surface, a ground crack, and the temps were freezing. At least the due on the ground was frozen. Yet, the snake had no problems digesting. I dare any of you to allow one or all of your snakes to be exposed to freezing temps while full of food.

So again yes, they can do things in nature that appear impossible in captivity or at least rare.

As you know, snakes in captivity will not feed if the conditions are not right. This transfers to wild snakes well. They will not feed if conditions are not suitable. The difference is, wild snakes have a known set of conditions they can rely on. They know where usable heat is. They know were conditions are that do not dehydrate them. They know this or they would not do something so silly as feeding in the winter.

Another better question is, how and why does this occur. That sir is a really great question. I have many theories and hypothocies(is that a word in any spelling) I have a strange feeling its all(mostly) about moisture. Some hints are, captives tend to be bloated, not fat, just full of water(toxemia or something) wild snakes seem to be solid, like they have physical control of water. I get the feeling its based on dehydration. In a sense, captives are not dehydrated but the opposite, to full of water to deal with cold temps. Again, please understand, this is theory. I can do that too.

Again, thanks Tom for the great questions, if I missed some, please try again, and I hope this helps. Cheers FR

Thanks Frank, as you said sometime not long ago one of things that makes the forum difficult is the replies are either a mile long or short and lacking details...so I keep attempting to get back into things on here and fail since my posts end up pages long. One thing you said REALLY answered a question I was almost afraid to ask. Your comment about the snake so full of lizards it had tails hanging out its mouth. I recently read an article in Reptiles Mag about Leopard Lizards....and it said they like to eat other lizards and sometimes cannot fit the entire meal into its belly. So it is noted they can be seen basking with the tail end of another lizard hanging out its mouth. I wondered if snakes did this. ESPECIALLY during winter. Not too mention your questioning of where the smaller snakes were in dens. Were you trying to hint that it is possible some are devoured by other snakes during the winter? One question which was not addressed was the one asking if you or anyone knew of someone who was set on the notion they killed a snake during brumation by cooling it with too much food in its stomach? I asked about the snakes being gravid over winter simply because I have seen some snakes in captivity overpower the females and breed them wether they appeared willing or not. So I wondered if a snake was seriously horny could he possibly force a female to copulate? She has the ability to attempt to flee but that does not mean a big male could not tire her out and win. Then what choice would she have but to become gravid? Either that or possibly if not probably lay a clutch of eggs much earlier than snakes who bred at the more appropriate time in early spring. In closing I will say I used to be very into Bass fishing. During the winter I either wanted the tiniest lures...micro jigs....weighing one 32nd of an ounce or lighter,....or a large piece of bait. It seemed to me that depending on how much weight the fish had on it, it would either want one or the other with no in between. A large heavy fish may want the micro jig suitable to catch a tiny little fish simply because in the cold water it would be easy to digest. Yet the large, but scrawny fish may want a very large piece of bait, so large its tail may even stick out of its mouth....knowing for the most part it would be very stationery waiting out the winters cold waters for spring. This is something I related to snakes. Especially denning snakes. Which was why I asked if you had ever seen any with tails hanging out of their mouths....and also if you thought it had to do with not many young small snakes being found in dens with larger snakes. ttyl Tom Stevens

Wow, lots more things to think about.

First, I am not a believer that snakes eat snakes, hahahahahaha what a dumbbell. Ok, lets take kingsnakes, if kingsnakes ate kingsnakes, there would be one giant kingsnake, get the picture, what is better at finding a kingsnake, then another kingsnake. Yet, lucky for us, there are still lots of kingsnakes, so whats the deal?

Tom, you are the perfect person to test this. I mean perfect, that is other then me. Or better yet, other then I use to be. I use to feed the hell out of snakes, had them grow giant and produce like crazy. You still do that hey? I didn't stop doing that for any reason, I just got tired(old)

So you understand how much kingsnakes can eat. Remember that.

Heres the test, take one clutch of kings, you know, something like cal kings(thats what I tested) and keep them in the same cage, feed them as often as the will eat. Call that group A. Now take another clutch of kings(easterns, hahahahahhaha, naw, another group of cali's) and keep them in one cage. Feed them once a week. Call that group B. Then take another clutch and feed them once every two weeks. Call them group C. When feeding take each out and feed in a deli cup. and wait at least 30 minutes before returning to the cage.

Now measure the results. Which group has the most cannibalism.

What you should see is, they will only eat eachother when starving. Consider, there is a difference between hungry, really hungry and starving and starving to death. In the last case, starving to death, kingsnakes from the same clutch will indeed consume eachother. But not kingsnakes that are only hungry. I imagine, they would normally go find food when hungry and not allow themselves to starve. But we as keepers do not have handle on what is hungry or starving, we only understand schedules, which have nothing to do with how hungry a snake is.

Now after your third group has turned to poop, try part 2 of this test. Place one individual from group B into the box of group A and see what happens. You can also put one from group A, into groups Box's box. What you will see here is, the intruder will be consumed in minutes, even without starving. Now do it all over again to make sure its relible.hahahahahahahahaha

And yes, I did indeed test this many times. What else was I going to do with all those dang cal kings.(all those first five hundred hets)

So no, I do not think snakes at a den eat eachother, unless they are in drastic circumstances. I think babies do not normally go to dens, or they congregate in different areas, but most likely stay where they are. I have seen several lizard species that congregate by size and age.

As you know, for the last 14 years I have been working with varanids(monitors) they behave much like colubrids only on massive speed. They do the same things only many many times faster. They are a better test subject. I can strave a juvi to near death in four or five days.

Both kingsnakes and varanids recognize third own, whatever that means, family group, same clutch, or local population. Call it the same tribe if you will. They normally do not consume members of the same tribe or group. But will readily consume "others"

Back to snakes, HMK and I routinely find males in close proxcimity. We did just a few days ago. But we never find them combating. So who the heck are they combating? other males? what other males? males of a different group possibly?

I think thats what they do. To test this, you can raise several males together. Then after they mature, place a different male in with them and see what happens. Results are, when raised together, they do not combat(normally) but as soon as a "other" is introduced, they will combat the beans out of it.

So the above suggests that snakes form a relationship, even males and treat members of their own, differently then they treat "others".

So you see, I feel your very interested in this, you can do captive tests that can reveal and expose behaviors that occur in nature. There are indeed captive ways to compare natural snakes to captive snakes. OK, this was too long and only covered a little of your questions, ask again and only ask one question, hahahahahaha FR

Hey Frank, I could not bring myself to actually do an experiment like that....though I think I understand what the outcomes would be and why. My collection is currently full of unique projects where every snake is important, and though all my friends make fun of me because I have held back 3 snakes in 5 years...next year if things pan out I will be holding back tons of babies to continue the projects. I did think you were trying to get someone to guess that small snakes are not found in dens due to larger snakes consuming them over the winter...but it was just a guess. I am going to post female number one of the 007 project soon. She is an 04, roughly 1000 grams and a little over four foot. I have 2 other enormous 04 females as well...and they appear to be thriving. I really hope they all produce next year...they just may produce some very special beauties
Tom Stevens

Thats an odd statement, "I hope they produce next year". Why would you say such a thing. They sound like they would have produced this year if you would have allowed it. Its occured you know. Females producing at one year.

Why didn't they, you ask? because you told them not to, thats why. You allowed a high growth rate, the upper areas of their potential. But stopped them from breeding by not allowing conditions that allow breeding. You need to consider, nature provides conditions to breed and growth at the same time. Hmmmmmmm more good questions are coming from you I hope. FR

Posted by: FR

Thats an odd statement, "I hope they produce next year". Why would you say such a thing. They sound like they would have produced this year if you would have allowed it. Its occured you know. Females producing at one year.

Why didn't they, you ask? because you told them not to, thats why. You allowed a high growth rate, the upper areas of their potential. But stopped them from breeding by not allowing conditions that allow breeding. You need to consider, nature provides conditions to breed and growth at the same time. Hmmmmmmm more good questions are coming from you I hope. FR

OK Frank. Now we are really getting into mostly uncharted territory. I was very tempted to try a few of these huge yearlings at the end of August or early Sept. They looked large enough to lay eggs, meaning they look as large as snakes that did lay good clutches for me in the past.However as I mentioned these snakes happen to be part of projects that may indeed produce many uncommon snakes which are new to the hobby. I was thinking if they did breed this year...it may have affected their production for 06 which too 98% of us would have influenced the decision to not breed them this year. I remember you saying you bred what most would consider a very small Cal King and the female laid 10 perfect eggs which hatched. I may test this theory in my Speckled King projects next season, with a smaller than average female...but I could not bring myself to try this with my much more important[and larger] snakes this season. Some friends and I have great expectations for some of the things I am working towards and risking it seemed like a bad idea. Specifically....I was thinking why would I attempt to get one small clutch out of the female and stress her out late in the season when it seemed logical to think next year I would get twice as large of a clutch and most likely even second clutches. You are correct that I chose to wait for 06. However would you go as far to say I had no reason to worry over these things? I produced a clutch of 21 Corns this year. One stood out to me so I favored it and fed it more than the ones for sale,,,it's one of my keepers. It is doing great and growing at a fast rate and if it keeps this up I may just try and breed it late in the year next year without cooling it. An experiment of sorts. Many would frown on this but I will do it if I think it shows promise, it is not about getting an extra clutch, it is about knowing if it can be done. What I think is kind of lame about the hobby is we are brain washed into thinking there's a set of rules to follow or bad things will happen to your snakes, or they simply won't be productive. If I think something will risk the over all health of my snakes I will not try it....but, if the snake seems to be willing and able to try it I am gonna give it a shot. So what I getting from your reply which I reposted above is you feel the size of the snake and the fact it is thriving is enough of a sign that it can succesfully reproduce regardless of the time of year or the fact it has not been cooled? And also that if it did succesfully reproduce it should have little to do with what it is capable of the following season? That is my main question, and I will say that one of the reasons I chose not too try is because I like my snakes to be solid as a rock before I cool them....and many of my friends seem to cool their animals without so much weight on them...and I will ad they have good results as well. Thanks Tom Stevens

I am afraid Tom, your missing the concept. You said, I will attempt. That statement is odd, funny and important. You are not breeding or doing the breeding, or have any real input on the breeding, unless you are purposely stopping it. or a perv! Take an asprin for that headacke. hahahahahahahahahaha

A while back, I explained two schools of thought in the early days of breeding kingsnakes. I explained Erine Wagners use of Photoperiod. And My/other tucson fellas, use of hibernation. I explained the similarities and differences. See if you can find this and re-read it.

The point is, you are not attempting to breed your snakes, but more accurately stopping your snakes from breeding. That is, you change conditions to suit your needs and not the snakes needs.

The key is understanding what the combination of heat and cool does. Snakes do not use heat and cool, on a seasonal basis, but on a daily basis. You do not allow that. Consider temps is like the gas pedal on your car. Press it down and it goes fast, do not press it down and it does not go anywhere, it idles. The gas pedal controls their metabolism. Now consider, your driving your snakes. Do you think those snakes do not know how to drive themselves. Of course they know how, better then you ever will, your not a snake. So give them the gas pedal. All this junk from our field work is, nothing but the snakes using the gas pedal or idling.

The GIANT problem is, most(here) think the gas pedal is suppose to be down(fast) in the summer and only on idle in the winter(slow) Snakes live all the time on idle, you can turn your car off, but a snake will die if you turn it off, so it must idle. Snakes stay idling most of their lives, and accellerate when needed, for certain tasks. Over 90% of snakes lives are at idle, not just in the winter. Consider, with the gas pedal down, they cannot conserve fuel enough to supply the huge amounts of energy for reproduction.

The point is, if you let them drive, they breed when ready, not when you think they are ready. I guess its all about whether your a control freak or not. My guess is most keepers are control freaks with all sort of weird fears. Sorry for the goofy analogy, FR

OK I am following you....but....and is there not always a but? But I must ask since you used to house colonies together. Did the snakes not all breed around the same time? And what about the timing of the females and pheremones? You are making me think....be it wrong or not...that snakes will breed at any given time. In other words if I am following you, you are saying I am preventing them from breeding by not introducing them....but when is the right, or the wrong time to try this? I will tell you for my proven adults I am on the regular old schedule. This suits me fine. However a young snake, like one of my 4 foot yearlings....these were far from this size in spring. So I chose not to let the male come in contact with them. I guess what I am asking is this. Are you telling me my yearling female should or will release the pheremone when I introduce the male? Or possibly the male could care less about pheremones and he will want to get busy? I have seen large females that were not at all receptive to a male til they were ready. And also males ignore females that appeared ready. So try and try again is acceptable in my book, but you are giving me the impression that this is easier than that...and I am asking you why? My husbandry is fairly basic and you know I can only get so much of a gradient...and my cages are only so big. I am trying to make sure I fully understand you, but I am also getting on here in between the 50 things I have to do every day....so I have not much time to thoroughly think things through. I certainly will reread everything. But for now I am trying to make sure I am not overlooking the points you are trying to make. Thanks Tom Stevens

One question which was not addressed was the one asking if you or anyone knew of someone who was set on the notion they killed a snake during brumation by cooling it with too much food in its stomach?
This is something I have heard people speak of,,,but it is always an assumption. It is one of the common "myths OR truths" snake guys occasionally argue over just like the talk of how overfeeding shortens a snakes life span. Yet I have never met anyone who actually thought they did this???
These discussions between the regulars on this forum can be very interesting because we have a few guys who are speaking from their own experiences...and that is waaaaaaaaaaaaay different that just saying things without having any evidence to back it up. Now back to my unanswered question....what I have seen on a few occasions was this. A giant fresh normal looking pile of crap in my brumation box during a fairly cold time of the winter. As well as shed skins. This kind of contradicts the common uninvestigated outlook of what snakes are supposed to be doing in winter...which is right on topic as of late so what do you guys think???? Tom Stevens

,

Well being is I do not hibernate my snakes, I guess I wouldn't know. Actually they can get cold if they want, or eat and get warm. So if they choose cold, they hibernate themselves, so I did not do it. But if they change their mind and get warm and eat, I did not do that either. Actually if I look at them and they look back, I feed them, so maybe I did to it. I am so confused.

About that overfeeding thing, I agree, I have heard that with all the different reptiles I have worked with, and all that happened is my overfed ones got bigger, produced more, and lived longer. What a bummer.

I turned the monitor world on its ear with that kind of stuff. Most have a heck of a time getting a female to breed and we had many lay eggs every two weeks(that hatch). All I did is what your doing, feed them when they are hungry. Not at all times they are hungry, just more then others do with their schedules. FR

Please keep in mind I have heard of less than 10 breeders who do not insist on things like brumation as far as mandatory to have snakes succesfully reproduce. I know some have their own methods and it works well for them so for them to be matter of factly about it is understandable. I wish I could provide my snakes with larger enclosures and a much larger temp gradient but for now I must make do with what I have. I feel content with my production and the over all health of my animals...so cool, I am happy. I must admit even if I had the temp gradient I wish for I would still brumate the majority of my animals until I saw results from experimenting with your type of caging and husbandry. But one thing is very important...and you are just about the only person I can ask this question. In the FR set up, has it been observed that males ate less and spent much more time on the cool side of the cage than females during winter? After all another common statement brought up when advising people the basics of producing snakes is that the male NEEDS to be cooled at a certain temp to assure he produces fertile sperm. I know guys who have produced numerous healthy offspring without cooling, but in your collection with the snakes being able to chose....did the males prefer the cold during winter??? Thanks
Tom Stevens

hey Tom,

With the rattlers that I work with, males attend their mates pretty much year round (field & captive). Gravid females require more heat (the engines are running) than do their non-gravid male counterparts. In the wild, the males remain very close to the warmer more easily found gravid females, but, they are usually harder to find, and they are cooler when they are found. Whether they are eating as much or less is hard to say. We found a bunch of snakes they other day, most were males and almost all had food on board. We have not yet hit our peak winter weather.

My captive rattlesnakes almost always stay in close proximity when the female is gravid, with the same thermoregulating behavior observed. During winter months when she is sitting on heat and most of the rest of the cage may be in the 50's, the male will be right next to her just off the high heat. Breeding males may or may not feed in captivity... some appear to get one tracked minds.

I do think that there is no hard fast rule. WHY? I think the most important influence to most of these discussions is individual variation in the approach to social and physiological behavior. Snakes in nature don't do the same things the same ways at the same time, NOR, do they all do the same things at the same time. This creates a lot of noise for us science minded anal neat freaks!!!

Cheers, Hugh

I do have some comments on this statement,

< Most including Phil, bases his thoughts of air temperature.>

Air temperature has its role and I like to think I use this to my advantage when applicable. More important is the soil temperatures and sun angles. I know full well that cold sunny days will put snakes in predictable situations under the right circumstances. Some of my best outtings in the field have been on days coming off the heels of a hard freeze when the temps maybe broke 50F as a high on clear sunny days. Sun angles are one thing that have not come up in these conversations but are of great importance. The trajectory of the sun in the Autumn sky is significantly different than in the Summer or Spring. This plays a major role in the annual cycle of temperate zone ectotherms and what they will be doing at any given time. Phil

Actually I did mention it. More importantly, there is a distint relationship of sun angle and home ranges. Also, there are places(commonly) that include sun exposure 12 months a year. FR

Frank, I saw that you mentioned sun exposure but not sun angles. I think this a very important aspect and not the same. Phil

Givin time and experience, I am sure you will figure out, sun exposure is more consistant and important.

The reason I say that is, sun angle will be different from place to place and material to material( of material the snakes are in). Do you think the same angles are possible in all parts of colubrids ranges. and and

In the last couple of years I have learned a bit more from watching new congregations. Bare with we here. I, at one time could predict where congregations were by sun angle and continued exposure time. Sir, it was not a problem. I could repeat it day after day. But as you can see, I keep looking. In the last few years, I have found congregations that are very exceptional to my own self made rules.(you need to have the ability to break your own and others set paradigns) I now have congregations with no direct sun exposure. hmmmmmmmmmmmm how the heck does that work? Actually its kind of simpe and clean. If you think about it, whats important is, the mass temperature of the ground. Not necessarily the sun angle. What did I find. I found areas that were back doored, that is, the areas were protrusions that stuck up and were exposed to the sun from the back side. Which is a good forty feet from where the entrance to the congregation is. The entrance is in total year around shade. I did show this on our monitor site, I am not sure I showed it here. The snakes have to crawl a long distance just to coil in the sun. But remember, what they do on the surface is not nearly as important as what they do under the surface. I also have found congregations that do not winter where they congregate in early early spring. Yet other congregations of the same species gather in the late fall. So am I confused, no sir, I am enlightened. What they have taught me is, they will do what is necessary, in that particular area, to EXSIST. Behavior is soft and paliable and varies from place to place as well as in the same place. Physical requriements are hard and unwaviering. All these snakes perish when their needs are not met. The needs are about the same. If an area does not have the tools to allow their needs, they do not exsist there.

You see, I get the feeling your very self centered and egotistical. Please do not be offended, many of the authors are like you in this way. You keep thinking the snakes are suppose to be and do what you think or read they are suppose be and do. In some way, its more about you then about the snakes. Again Please understand, that is a problem with all of us. The first thought in your mind when you see a snake doing anything is, clear my mind of paradigns, take data and do not push thoughts and opinions on the snakes. Which is what we all without question do. Its hard to escape this. But if you want to learn anything new and important, you have to not tell them what they are suppose to do.

Please understand, you say your doing research, but to me, it seems your on a confirming mission, that is, you only except data that confirms your thoughts. How is that research? Research is to discover new data, not continually confirm old data.

That you have to have a set idea of what snakes do is confirming your self centered and egotistical approach. For instance, why did you say, FR, what you say about your snakes confirms my thoughts about what snakes do in AZ. First off, how the heck would you know. I could be making the whole thing up, and never leave my room. Theres a fella on the varanid forums that did exactly that. So why do you feel the need to confirm your thoughts without actually seeing for yourself. You believed me? So you believe those other authors too? Do you think they had the same mission and asked the same questions you are asking? So you take information that suits you that was not derrived from the same question. Which means, out of context.

If you would ask questions and not try to confirm your thoughts, you indeed could get a better understanding of whats being said. For instance, You twossss said, snakes do this(hibernate) I said nope. then it boiled down to the difinition of hibernation. We agreed on a difintion, its when snakes are at a temperature that makes them physically inactive, we agreed on that, then you could have asked, Frank, do snakes hibernate in your area with our agreed upon difinition. I would answer no. Then you could asked, do some snakes or some parts of the population hibernate? Then I would answer yes. Some parts do. without question, some parts of our snakes populations hibernate or brumate. Then you could ask, what parts are those or more importantly, what parts don't hibernate. You see, there are better questions.

Now consider, Both of you keeping mentioning old information. You keep referring back to that. Ok, its to long already, lets do this in another post. Just think about what I have already said.

Please my name calling is not intended as a bad thing or is nothing against you. Its only used to identify how you approach looking at snakes. Its great to be aware of what others think, if fact its necessary, but do not become guided by that, possibly old information. Your job as a field researcher is to not be guided by old information(paradigns) but instead be sensitive to new information helps in filling the giant gaps in old data. Or creates new avenues of understanding. Sir, thats your job, not simply harassing snakes on a massive scale. FR

Frank, I'm afraid you're the naive one, if you think name calling is the only way to get your point across. How is that going to help you discuss natural history problems with folks who care enough to get in a conversation with you? I thought we could get some good info put on the forum, if we could learn to cooperate and see both sides, but I don't know if you can see any other point of view w/o discrediting it. I don't guess making friends is something you consider important. Thanks...

TC

Hello again Frank. First let me start by saying I am not offended by your statements about me in your post. I think I have a feel for the way you express yourself from our conversations here and I recognize we all have different ways of communicating. So anyhow, here is some comments regarding yours.

< The reason I say that is, sun angle will be different from place to place and material to material( of material the snakes are in). Do you think the same angles are possible in all parts of colubrids ranges. and and >

That is exactly my point Frank. That is why I contend that all snakes in all places are not doing the same things at the same times. By this I mean Florida kings might well be active on the surface in winter, but speckled kings in Kansas are not. They still perform their life functions through the course of the year but not necessarily at the same time. I think it is presumptuous on your part to assume that all populations of snakes behave in the same way. The surest way to extinction is the inability to adapt to varying conditions. This plasticity in behavior has enabled the kingsnake to be a very successful species and to inhabit such contrasting environments as riparian corridors in arid desert to humid lowland coastal areas to open expanses of grassy plains. The first thing that should be considered when determining behavior is why an animal does what it does and when. In nature everything happens for a reason. Please tell me why you would feel it is necessary for all snakes to be active in the winter in all parts of their range? What purpose would this serve? If a milk snake in Wisconsin is well able to feed, breed, grow, shed, etc..and the species is able to thrive and maintain its population in good numbers and thus survive as a species from April to October, why do you feel these snakes have a need to be active in the cold winter months?

< Please understand, you say your doing research, but to me, it seems your on a confirming mission, that is, you only except data that confirms your thoughts. How is that research? Research is to discover new data, not continually confirm old data. >

This puzzles me Frank. Are you familiar with the research projects we have? Some things we record are indeed confirmations of known information. For example, recording species and relative abundance in given areas. In an ever changing world though this is important data. In the course of doing this we make many other discoveries such as range extensions and natural history observations. In addition we do extensive investigations on several species that we focus on in particular. We are not full time researchers but rather a couple of guys that do a lot of cool things on our off days. We have had some minor grants and have had the good fortune to have the support of a corporate sponser, but for the most part we do what we do out of our own pocket because we enjoy it. We have published some of our findings and share our information with the state dept of natural resourses and with university folks. We do a lot of educational programs here in the state and out of state as well, and run and operate the Ky Herp Society. In our free time we spend time with our wives and family lol!

I do consider myself open minded and I will freely admit you have made me think about some possibilities that could exist. Thats the benefit of a forum of this type. Thanks again for the conversation. Phil

I hope this is not taken as a flame, and I hope I haven't missed any previous posts on this (I'm a very sporadic visitor), but I do have a question:

Why does the prescribed (and apparently error-laden) method of rearing kingsnakes work so well? I've brumated kingsnakes (and before that cornsnakes) as per the AVS textbooks, and it's always gone off without a hitch: they clear their bowels, go to sleep, wake up months later fat and healthy, chow down, stop eating, breed (or attempt to), and go back to eating till next year.

We do what's convenient, and if it seems to work will not make adjustments unless/until it seems necessary. And our remedies seem readily prescribed: hide box/space requirements/temps/humidity.

We might find certain humans live well in the woods (didn't the Unabomber live in a bare lean-to in Montana, sans electricity, no less). While I'd hopefully (though honestly, doubtfully) be able to be resourceful enough to survive in that environment, I'd always opt for a house with all modern conveniences available when given the choice. So if a snake seems to do well in a "new" environment, why should we feel obligated to change that?

And won't an animal adjust to new conditions (or die off)? Haven't I read that FLA kingsnakes benefitted from the altered state of the Okeechobee sugarcane fields? And how about all the other displaced exotics in the Florida wilds?

Am I making sense? Also, FR, if you ever publish anything and are in need of a copyeditor, I'll help out.

Speaking for myself I am interested in the recent discussions simply because the first 2 years I bred snakes I was a nervous wreck over things that do not seem so critical now. It seems winter is the only season we worry about, as the rest of time they're much more up and about and can get by without much fuss. What I am trying to say is some people say incubate corn eggs at 82.7 degrees while others say just put them in a closet on the top shelf. Just like cool them at 50 degrees for 3 months or just put em in your garage....know what I mean? Tom Stevens

Frank,

Thanks..that was a cool post. I want to comment on a couple things.

>> First, I and others have seen all sorts of confusing events. That is, many snakes overwinter with ovum or embryos in their bodies. Also, many egg laying snakes deposit their eggs in the fall and those eggs overwinter. A better question is, is this normal for the species or exceptional for the species. In the case of montane rattlesnakes(on our site) it appears very normal. Also it appears subocs normally have their eggs overwinter. In other snakes, it may or may not, be normal but still occurs of an occasional basis. So yes, it occurs, but it may or may not be normal.
>>

That is really amazing. I've heard of snakes that mated at all times of the year, and can have clutches at any time, but that's in the tropics. I didn't know snakes could do that in the subtropics or temperate regions. More stuff to think about

>> A point I was making below, in my retarted effort to help is, there is a basic misunderstanding of how wild snakes work. Most including Phil, bases his thoughts of air temperature. I understand what is what we were taught(shame on those teachers) The problem is, snakes do not give a flying shack ankle about air temps. They focus on mass temps. If one was get out of a tiny box(enclosed paradign) and try to understand mass temps, they would soon realize, there is a huge range of mass temps in any givin area, including the northern parts of reptile ranges. These mass temps must include a basic minimum or exsistance is impossible.
>>

I agree, I've been in a box of sorts. Many of us have, including the scientists. There's a reason for that. Consider, change is difficult, because what we know is based on the previous knowledge of others, plus our meager experiences. Most written knowledge of this subject is from folks living in areas with long winters and very little experience studying snakes in winter. Our paradigm is that snakes are dormant in winter and are active the rest of the year. I believe the conceptual change you would like to see is that snakes are active all year.

I'm not ready to say snakes have two seasons, yet, but I am willing to say they have one season, and work on what they are doing during that one season. If they are below ground for extended periods they could be resting or could be active, but it all adds up to one season. During that season they eat, drink, grow, mate, develop eggs or sperm, and rest sometimes, etc, and they are as active as possible under the conditions of their environment.

Just one note about the far north. In n. MI the temps can get pretty bad in January. One year I went outside when the air temp was (-30*F). But I went into the cedar swamp on the Back Ten, and guess what. The temp in there was well above 0*F. I started cutting wood and had to take my coat off, because I was getting sweaty. I noticed the trees stopped the wind from cooling the air any further than it was. I also noticed that under the couple feet of snow the ground was not frozen, nor the water. Actually both of these things are good insulators. Surface temps were near 32*F. That's when I started thinking about why the massasaugas went into the cedar swamps in winter (my theory on these). The swamps are much warmer and the snakes can stay closer to the surface w/o freezing. They have access to water, and don't have to worry about cold fronts, because there's no wind and water usually doesn't freeze in the cedar swamps. I have never seen this idea in the literature.

I believe temps are different in different places, even on my little twenty acre mini-farm. But I also think n. MI is too cold for those snakes to be mating or eating underground. The days are also very short and the sun hardly ever shines until about mid-Feb. There are hardly any rocks to warm up, so we are different from more southerly areas. Whether there is a place where snakes can find temps in the mid-50*'s, I don't know. Maybe we can work on finding out.

TC

Frank..do you think there's always a place where there's temps around 50-55*F, somewhere in the ground or immediate area?

Hello Tom, here are a few observations I have made.

< has it ever been noted that the snakes were hanging in sexed pairs? >

We frequently see this in the early spring especially with kingsnakes. Quite often we will find a sexed pair under the same piece of artificial cover. We have seen this with other species such as corns, milk snakes and prairie kings as well.

< Your question on seeing snakes feeding during the colder months when it would not be expected >

We have not seen this in deep winter but we do see a number of snakes here each year late in the season such as in late Oct and into Nov that have recently fed on large meals. Rat snakes commonly and on occasion prairie kings, black kings, corn snakes and others. We have noted that generally the snakes seen in this condition fall within two catagories. Either a female snake that most likely had bred that season that may need to build up its metabolic reserves or an emaciated snake that clearly had an unsuccessful feeding season.

< Lastly has anyones guess ever been that a gravid snake found earlier than average possibly bred during the coldest part of the year >

I have field collected kingsnakes here in Ky as early as late March that proved to be gravid. I believe that kingsnakes here at least breed shortly after emerging for the year. Timber rattlesnakes here breed in late summer and give birth the following Sept.

Great series of questions Tom! Phil

< has it ever been noted that the snakes were hanging in sexed pairs? >

We frequently see this in the early spring especially with kingsnakes. Quite often we will find a sexed pair under the same piece of artificial cover. We have seen this with other species such as corns, milk snakes and prairie kings as well.

I too have found them in spring, but I was really referring to the coldest part of winter as that seems to be what the discussions are about as of late. Lots of good stuff on the forum lately...I have not been posting much as I have been swamped but I read all the posts....good stuff Tom Stevens

In late October(MD) I have found adult mole kings not only together under debris but MATING....I have noticed continual mating throughout the winter if these WC adults are kept together. I have never noticed significant ovulation of any kind and have attributed mating to cooler temps....I have noticed continual GAPING by females during this time as well. For what its worth,Jeff

Jeff, what temps are you keeping these snakes at?

I've seen lots of snakes mate in the fall, but not seen gravid females. I don't know if mole kings are one that can get gravid in fall/winter, or not. I have a couple ratsnakes, Elaphe dione and bimaculata, that not only fall mate, but the females retain the sperm and become gravid as soon as they develop eggs in spring. I do not put my snakes together unless I want them to become gravid. Lots of snakes will begin mating when they are finished foraging actively for the season and begin aggregating in their winter quarters. I think this carries over into captivity. I also think there are temps that are too cold for them to mate, and they can be kept together w/o any mating taking place.

Terry

>>In late October(MD) I have found adult mole kings not only together under debris but MATING....I have noticed continual mating throughout the winter if these WC adults are kept together. I have never noticed significant ovulation of any kind and have attributed mating to cooler temps....I have noticed continual GAPING by females during this time as well. For what its worth,Jeff

Sharp temp drops in the fall to the 50s actually initiates the act. I was told for years to keep them cold to breed but I think that cb and acclimated snakes lose this ability only because we as keepers take it away. Ovulation is more difficult to determine in WC animals as well. I think our husbandry techniques have become so cookie cutter that we dont realize the dynamics of the natural systems. And as stated somewhere else, I think we manipulate just about everything around our schedules. I think these wild animals are more opportunistic than we give them credit for. JMHO.Jeff

That may be true. I know we don't usually provide near the range of temps they're probably used to in the wild. Interesting notes...thanks.

TC

I think it's worth remembering there's a huge variation in animal behavior: just consider humans, from humanitarians to mass murders, from simple-life vegetarians to cigar smoking, big steak-eating heavyweights, etc. The same will hold true for any animal species.

What we're trying to do in captivity is to establish conditions optimal for the majority of animals. It's not our job, i don't think, to establish conditions suitable for snakes with autoimmune deficiencies (think "the bubble boa" or snakes that for a variety of reasons might mime oddities observed in nature.

The fact that something happens in nature does not make it a good thing, i.e., are snakes sometimes found with meals well into the "cold" season: that could kill them, just as people w/o adequate sense can be stimulated into drinking enough to die of alcohol poisoning.

A ranger on Jekyll Island, GA once showed me a brown water snake that had eaten a huge catfish. It was summer, but for whatever reason--most likely the size of the meal--the snake decided to regurg the catfish. Problem was, when the snake moved back toward the mouth, the fins spread open, punctured the sides of the snake, and immobilized the catfish. If i recall correctly, the snake had been dead just a short time when he ran across it in the field.

So I'm just trying to create a perspective here. I think it's great to observe and contemplate behavior in the wild, looking for cues for ways we can better manage our captives. But I'd warn against trying to emulate conditions exactly (add some predators? a road to cross at night? feed during cold periods? etc.)

peace
terry
albino tricolors

>>I am not much of a field herper, but I still enjoy hearing from people who do research what snakes are doing during certain times of the year. I am wondering about a few things. Wether snakes are denning in groups or when small numbers are found here n there has it ever been noted that the snakes were hanging in sexed pairs? I am also wondering since there's been talk of if snakes feed during brumation...does anyone feel they have caused a snake in captivity to die from feeding too late in the season and cooling them with food in their bellies? Or has anyone in the field caught a snake in the act of feeding...especially on another snake during the coldest part of the year when you'd assume they were dormant? Lastly has anyones guess ever been that a gravid snake found earlier than average possibly bred during the coldest part of the year or retained sperm so late in fall that they carried developing eggs through the winter? These are difficult questions...and not many could give answers. I know a high percentage of keepers would say no....these things have not been observed and it would not be likely. I do know some breeders shrug off snakes dying over winter, as if it is just one of those things and it happens. I hope I am not asking things recently discussed as I have had little time for the net and see many posts having many many replies. I look forward to hearing what Frank and the other field herpers has to say about these things. Tom Stevens