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Here are two more wildcaught Hueco alterna from this year. They were collected by the El Paso Boys, Mike and Cimarron on September 7. The male is a neonate that was found on the road. They said it was so small they never would have seen it except for the fact that it was moving. The female is a subadult that was found as it was investigating a crevice spiny in a crack (on a rockcut).

It is interesting that Mike found the first two on August 7, and then he and Cimarron found two more on September 7. Apparently, when conditions are right they are moving in masse...lol. Not that I could find any....

The first one is the female, the second the male. Joe please feel free to post the pics in the gallery....although I'll try to get you a better pic of the male later. Still need Troy or Brad to give me some photography lessons with my Nikon D70 SLR as I keep getting mixed results.

I think they are both from Juno. I saw some El Paso guys on Juno around September 5-9 in a truck with a bunch of Vivo El Paso stickers.

Huecos... no way... Juno.. you bet...

Steven

I normally don't post on these forums, but when someone is wrong, sometimes you just have to point out their stupidity. Those snakes were caught on September 7th, right after we caught them, we called Dave to let him know. Also, I sent him pictures of the snakes via e-mail that same night. He called us back the next morning on the 8th, to my house none the less. So, if there were some guys from El Paso down near juno from the 5th until the 9th as you claim, then how could Dave have called me at home on the 8th? How could I be at home and juno at the same time? Makes you wonder, huh? I don't keep alterna or any nonvenomous, so it is very easy for me to part with some Hueco mountain alterna. But, apparently for a very small percent of alterna collectors, there tends to be competition, rivalry and jealousy amongst your fellow herpers. I'm sure it is the same for collectors of other species as well. You might be a little upset because you have hunted the Huecos for them and have not found them. Don't feel bad, we hunted the Huecos every night for months and months looking for lepidus and found only four alterna while looking for the leps. Since I really don't keep nonvenomous, all the Hueco alterna we find will continue to go to Dave and Doug. Next year, I plan on devoting the entire year to herping the Huecos for leps and will probably find dozens more alterna. By the way, every one who knows me can attest to the fact that I do not engage in any commercial collecting, so making long distance trips that far down in Texas doesn't work for me. Please don't be a hater, be an appreciater.

I've given some effort out there for an alterna and would like to find one someday. Who knows, maybe I'll get lucky. Regardless, I'm glad to see someone finding them. It gives hope to sorry herpers like myself.

Keep up the good work man, I look forward to seeing what you turn up next season(maybe some new stomping grounds are in order???).

Thanks for the contribution to the alterna nuts, even if they did go to that Dave guy

Good luck in the field, Crotes and Lampro's alike,

Brad Alexander

I honestly don't know Steven Owens, but I'm guessing he was just kidding....playfully busting my balls because I was lucky enough to get those snakes from you.

In my experience it is rare to find people with the integrity and generosity you've displayed in the short time I've known you. You've proven to me on several occasions now that your word is something you can bank on, and I must say that is refreshing in the world today. I'm sure that most people on this forum would be shocked to know that you and Cimmaron gave me these two snakes as a gift. You guys are awesome, and I just hope that someday I'm able to give you guys something that you'll value as much as I do the Hueco alterna.

Hey Dave,

actually there is something that you can do for me, could you please re-send those pictures that you e-mailed to me a while back, the ones you took while field collecting in California (ruber, etc...)? I don't know how, but about half of them got deleted by accident. A lot of my messages just disappeared one day. Thanks Dave.

I know this is OT, but just curious as I have not collected the Huecos (well -- I have, but never successfully!), I'd love to see a photo of what the lepidus are like there. Are they like the Franklin ones? Cheers, Henry W.

Nah, they aren't like the Franklins (which are klauberi, by the way). They look like Guadalupe lepidus, except tan in color. At least the ones I've seen.

I met Mike and Cimmaron[sp] in late August while hunting the Huecos with John Fraser. With all due respect to you Steve [whom I have never had the pleasure to meet]I can guarantee the legitimacy of these alterna. They showed us exactly which cuts the August Huecos had come from and reiterated they wern't interested in non-venemous collecting but would pick up any alterna they found for their friend Dave long [lucky b----rd]!!
Mike told me of his "hot" collection and how he had not ever shined cuts before until Dave showed them how in late July/early August. Like Mike says he will probably catch many more in years to come because he will shine cuts now. Most of the Huecos that have been documented have been on cuts or on the ground between cuts and Hi 90. With the massive truck traffic out there it would be highly unlikel;y to find many alterna on the road.
Just my 2 cents worth. BA

Those two alterna look like Huecos to me.

Of the four alterna I found in the Huecos, two were on the road.
I never found a roadkill there, although Frank Brown found one.

For the lepidus guys, one night I found a crevis spiny lizard with blood on it's head. Nearby I noticed a lepidus that had apparently bitten it. After a while it started consuming it and later retreated into a hole in the cut and remained visible there for the rest of the night. I've actually seen fewer lepidus in the Huecos than alterna. I however only hunted when it had recently rained.

Hi Dan, Nice to hear from you. When John Fraser and I were out there [1st time for me]in August for 3 nights there were over 200 semis per night between 8:30pm and 2-3am. Mike and Cimmaron said that the truck traffic had increased greatly in the last several years [since you used to hunt there]I assume. Although we found several common crotulus on the highway, 2/3rds were dor. I think the increase in truck traffic, with they're heavy vibrations and lights will keep more and more snakes from actually reaching the road. Any Highway 90 hunting will be more productive shining cuts or walking [in my opinion]than road cruising from now on. That hurts me to say that because I'm a traditionalist road cruiser but I'm just being realistic. I come from the "Bob Mackin school of road cruising" which says "Cover as much ground in as little time as possible". Unfortunately I feel Hi 90 from Del Rio to El Paso is for cut shiners now. With NAFTA in high gear the semi's own the road. BA

I found a lepidus on the road the first time I hunted the Huecos in 95 or 96 (beginner's luck). I also met 3 other collectors out there that night that claimed to have never found an alterna there. Finally found out two years ago that at least one of them had. Hmmm....

Kind of like the night I met Troy on the River after he had caught 2 alterna that night. Only he told me he hadn't seen anything....

I loved living in West Texas...got to see the mind games firsthand

I was fishing at a local lake one day and the someone asked if I had caught anything. I showed them my stringer. Next thing you know I had the whole family at my spot. Tangled lines, noise. It ruined the whole experience. The whole lake to fish at and they had to be right there. Seems that if you say something to one person it gets up and down the road and more people show up and make it harder to maneuver without pulling up on someone, or just the opposite. I love it when everyone turns in and leaves the road to me, as nothing seems to be moving. Solitude, tranquility, the night, the desert, the stars, the wildlife and me. Perfect. Ric
P.S. I don't mind the company. But I like it a little more spread out on the road and not just in one small area. I saw where 2 panther canyon alterna were caught in about 10 minutes. Panther canyon got mighty crowded for awhile.

That is why lance and I don't pull up to everyone we see and ask the quintessential phrase "YOU CATCHIN ANYTHING???????.

The snakes are out, they are almost always out. Just have to cross paths. Whether it be on the cut, road, dirt, or whatever.

Anybody order one of those 423 lumen flashlights from this site?

http://elektrolumens.com/4_SALE/For_Sale.html

Take Care,

Steven

The problem with some of the "homemade" alterations like the ones listed on that site is that they have no regulated circuitry and no way to dissipate the heat generated by high wattage LEDs. Even though LEDs are solid-state technology, high heat environments can really limit their lifespan. The non-regulated circuitry creates a lumen fall-off relatively soon in battery life. That's whay most high-end LED light manufacturers use Lithium batteries.

...2 cents from a flashlight dork LOL.

I understand what you are saying about the lights. I haven't emailed to ask about the circuit. I just purchased a 5 watt luxeon for 65 with 2x123cr batteries and charger. IT ROCKS...
It has 3 light settings (starting with the brightest) and it has the protective circuitry to let the batteries last as long as possible. Then it dims the light in stages.

I am also going to try to hunt this year with a batteryless flashlight that you shake up. Nothing like walking the cut with a light that NEVER requires batteries. They are less than 10 bucks on ebay after shipping. Worth having a few just in case.

I still would like to have a 420 lumen light. Even the 225 lumen surefire m3 would be nice... Expensive though.

Best Wishes,

sxo792

I have one of his XM-3's. It out-does ANY "AA" flashlight that I own. I would highly reccomend his products. He's as much of a flashlight nut as we are snake nuts.
Jason
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Snakes of Hudspeth County, Texas

So there would be no witnesses, right!

I'm not sure who you are (being you have a login name of CrotalusX) but I generally don't tell others what I find the night I find them. In fact, I generally don't stop and talk unless I know who you are, so that night I probably mistook you for someone else when I stopped . . .

And the reason I don't tell others what I'm finding on a given night (unless I know you fairly well) is that some folks have a tendency to (A) start focusing on one little area or (B) start dogging the steps of the one that found the snakes. Kinda like Ric says below - having others suddenly start stepping all over your toes kinda ruins the night for you.

Finally, if its any consolation to you, later that same night, I jumped out of the truck, left the car door open, and my wife backed it into a road cut, making our door inoperable LOL. Maybe it was karma catching up with me . . .

Troy

Not trying to ruffle anyone's feathers, I just always thought that the "little white lies" commonly heard in West Texas were amusing. That, combined with the territoriality among the locals, made for an entertaining time.

I once walked down from the upper cuts on Big Hill south of Alpine to the lower cuts to chat with another local herper there. We talked for about an hour about various things, local events, etc. I heard several days later that he was mad at me because he thought I was trying to sabotage him; I was purposely wasting his time when he should have been hunting! Between him "owning" the cuts south of town, another local owning the cuts west of town, and the "old man of the mountains" owning the rest of the Davis Mtns, I was forced to eventually hunt the Glass Mtns (what a boring stretch of road that was!).

Had you tried to chat me up while I was walking a cut (for more than a brief exchange of pleasantries, mind) I would have offered you a polite "excuse me while I get back to herping" and hoped you'd have taken the hint.

Similar to the reason I usually say "nothing" when asked what I saw - its quicker and gets me on my way faster. Visit at the hotel during the daylight hours!

Troy

I don't hunt alterna much anymore....maybe 6 or 7 days a year for the past several years. Mostly just for excerise, solitude, and the chance to observe some animals. But in years past, I did spend an awful lot of time walking that hill south of Alpine. I had a few people get on me about "owning" the hill, but I never viewed it that way. I just hunted there all the time because it was only a few minutes drive from my house and I liked walking on pavement, so I could see where I was stepping. I'm not much into walking around in tall weeds where I have to keep shining the ground in front of me to make sure I don't step into the bite of a rattlesnake.

Although I was accused of thinking I owned the hill, I've never had a problem with other people hunting while I'm there. In fact, I've met some really cool people out there. Usually, I'm eager to tell them about the animals I've caught off the hill and have actually taken some guys on a tour to show them what I consider to be the "honey holes". I think I've caught around 20 alterna off that hill over the years, so I certainly don't feel any sort of jealousy or anger toward anyone else who tried to catch them there. In fact, I walked that hill every night for a week this past summer and never saw an alterna. Then, a guy came down there and, just moments after I had told him how dead it had been, he snagged a little male alterna off the cut. I was thrilled about it just because he was kind enough to come back down the hill and show it to me.

As for people who want to stop and talk; I usually enjoy a short conversation about snakes. But....There was one guy in particular, who used to stop to chit-chat everytime he saw me out there. I would dread the sound of his truck coming up the hill because I knew my snake hunting was going to be put on hold for the next half hour.
I like the guy just fine, but I figured he should have had enough sense to know that we could chit-chat during the daytime. That first hour after dark is when I get focused and excited about the possibilities of seeing that awesome grayband cruising across the rocks. I don't want to be standing there, talking to some guy.

Anyhow, I come here periodically and read through the posts, but rarely post much myself. I read this one and the comment about "owning" the cut south of town, reminded me of what I've heard has been whipsered in certain circles about me, so I thought I'd just clear it up. I don't know who you are, but I have a couple of guesses. If someone told you that I was mad at you for "sabotaging" me, you can rest assured that that person did not hear that from me.

Feel free to hunt anywhere you like. The south hill is a great place that has produced some incredible animals. You probably won't see me there since I don't hunt much anymore, but if you do, I'll be happy to talk.....briefly.

Thanks for replying, Norm. Ric was quick on the phone, huh?! Actually I was referring to a different Alpine local (although I think he no longer lives there) who walked the south Alpine cuts nightly for almost the entire summer of 98 (97?) (that should narrow it down; plus, he found like 10 alterna in one year there). I referred to you as the other guy who owned the cuts out west! Ha!

But your reply illustrates my humorous (well, to me, anyway) point. Locals who have nothing but time are usually happy to chat for awhile and let everyone know when and where they found stuff. We're out there every night (when the conditions are right, or when we get bored), what's a few minutes (or an hour) spent chatting on the side of the road (within reason; obviously it gets annoying when it becomes a habit)? It's the out-of-towners like Troy who are usually in a hurry and quick to "mislead" you (no offense, Troy)...more bang for the buck, I guess. In my opinion, meeting our out-of-town guests on the side of the road and chatting a little was more fun than the countless, dull hours spent starring at rock cuts.

And as a little more background, this one-hour chat that night was the first time I had ever talked to this person, and he went on to find over 15 alterna on those cuts (before and after that night over a two-year period). So much for my sabotage!

Hey CrotalusX guy. No, I'm not Norman, although he is one of my friends and neighbors and yes, I do recall that one hour conversation we had and I never said a cross word about you to anyone. You're right, it is funny how little white lies can be passed around. No hard feelings, but please don't put words in my mouth again. I'm still here, in Alpine, and have been for 20 years now. Come on out anytime and enjoy our beautiful country. Hell, I'll talk to ya for 2 hours if ya like! and btw, I caught more than 15 on that hill.

I saw the "nfn" and thought you were Norm (same first and last initial! Huh!).

Last I heard you were teaching in Presidio? Either that was a brief stint, or I was erroneously fed incorrect information again. Regardless, yes, the white lies that abound in alterna-land are humorous, with this time being no exception (I still can't get over the similarity in initials!). I was told by several people (locals) that you were angry with me for "purposely" taking up your time that night. So I wasn't the one that put the words in your mouth, although I certainly apologize for the mistake of repeating what I heard. But now you've taken away my favorite story to tell!

Did you ever get those guys to breed? I know at the time you were having trouble getting them cold enough in the winter...

Yeah, I did work in Presidio for 4 years, but I lived in Alpine and made the 180 mile round trip every day for 4 years. Put a few miles on my odometer! I have been working in Marathon for the past 3 years, but still live in Alpine. There was one local guy who got quite upset with me for hunting that hill so hard and I heard that he was passing some ugly rumors about me at one time. Perhaps this little white lie originated with him? He is a "reformed" snake hunter. He said that I had decimated the population of the south hill and that it would be a wonder if anyone ever found another alterna there. Well, ever since he said that, I have observed a steady stream of snakes coming off that hill.....so much for decimation! I did have problems with housing the snakes over the winter and had a few years of upheaval in my personal situation, with divorce, and moving, and other such things, so I had difficulties with keeping proper brumation conditions. I did have some serious copulation going on at one time, but failed to produced eggs. May have been using bad males or something? Over the years, my interests have shifted and I'm not so into alterna anymore, although I haven't completely lost interest. I get a revived interest during the rainy season sometimes. I passed several of my animals on to some other breeders who were interested in supplementing their gene pools. I have kept a group of my favorite animals and intend to breed them this spring. I now have a good brumation spot for them. There is a selection of photos of some of my animals in the Alpine gallery that were recently placed there by Troy. There were more that he didn't get photos of, but there is a good representation of what I caught down there. Sorry to have shot down your favorite story, but I want to dispell the myth that I thought I "owned" the hill. I'll admit that I did hunt that hill very hard for a while, but I ain't dumb enough to think that I could stake a claim to it. I found a few really spectacular animals there and I got carried away with the anticipation of finding "the most incredible one ever". I still think it will come off that hill someday.

Neal,
I'll say it, you owned that hill! haha (meaning you did as well or better than anyone there

Forky

Well, Joe, in that sense, I suppose I did own the hill. Now that some of those animals have been distributed to a few successful alterna breeders, my hope is that some of us will be able to spread that genetic material back into the hobby population. I'm certain that there are some spectacular genes lurking in there somewhere. You may recall that I emailed a bunch of pictures to you several years ago and asked you not to post any of them on the site. At that time, this certain person was already p*ssed at me for catching all those snakes and claimed that my success was drawing crowds to an already decimated population. I just didn't want to add any fuel to his fire by posting those pics on the site. But now that Troy has done the dirty work, I suppose I can fess up to this horrendous deed.

I remember very well. The year was 2000 that you sent me the photos, and we posted only one of them as to not make a big deal out of it. I feel like the secret has been out quite some time now on that area anyway (as far as the sheer numbers that area can produce) so no harm in posting them now. The Galvan's have caught quite a few out that way as well. I don't know if they are referenced in these conversations but I choose to remain ignorant on that point

Best
Joe

Yes, ignorance can be a good. It has served me well a time or two. I don't know a whole lot about the history of whats been collected off that hill. I know that Denny had success there many years ago, Mike Foerstner found an AOR there in the mid 80's, Norm, of course, had some nice finds, and then there were a few more picked up by a couple of locals in the mid 90's. Before I started hunting there, most of my hunting was done by road cruising the river road on a motorcycle. Then, I began to walk that hill south of town. It was hard hunting, with many long nights of nothing at all, but then there came the week that I caught 8 within a five day period. I think I had 2 three snake nights that week. Once word of that got out, that place became quite popular and has been steadily hunted ever since. A lot of nice stuff has come from there, but it is, by no means, an easy score. I'm sure I have walked hundreds of miles, up and down that hill without seeing anything at all. I suppose all that walking has kept me from getting fat in my old age, so it was not wasted time!

To rattle you guys in the off season. I have no doubts to the authenticity of the Hueco animals. I am glad that it is paying off to those spending the time out in the area.

Those who know me, know I am a comic. So please take no offense to my remarks.

I hope all of you have a safe and happy holiday season. I am already counting the days till south texas (march).

Take Care,

Steven