Reptile & Amphibian Forums

My snake was advertised as Jalisco, but has yellow instead of white bands. My daughter brought a snake book home, and on the back cover is a pic of a Nelson's that looks EXACTLY like mine. Both breeds come from similar areas of Mexico, right? So, is mine truly a Jalisco or is it a Nelson's??

Thanks!

Walt

Looke like a Jalisco to me
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1.0 Albino Corn "Lucky"
1.0 Snow Corn "Snow"
0.0.4 Southern Ringneck "Collar", "Bc", "Lazy", "Biggie"
1.0 Green Amevia "Gizard"

I'm going with Arcifera on this one, not Nelsoni at all. Why not get pix of the adults from the breeder? Adult Arcifera are fairly distinct from the rest of the MX Triangulum. Jeff

Called "breeder". Wife answered, sounded like pet shop. Didn't know anything about snakes, even though she's the one that sold it to me...

What's the diff between Nelson's and Jalisco, looks-wise? I wish I could show you the Nelson's pic on that book. I mean it looked identical, down to the color.

I don't care which it is, but I'd like to know WHY folks think it's a Jalisco...

Thanks for your help!!!

Walt

Red rings in Nelsoni range 13-18 mean = 16
Snout is usually white at nasal
Rarely has crossovers
first black ring crosses throat incompletely or narrowly crosses the throat.

Arcifera will nearly always have a solid black head or some very light white flecking at snout.
Red bands range 17-31 mean = 21
first black ring crosses the throat in a broad straight line.
Arcifera tends to have crossovers towards the tail.

Be sure to count the red bands to the vent, no further.

Obviously, 18 red bands will cause some doubt, I'm hoping you find 23 or so! Neither snake is very heavily tipped but I think you'll find Arcifera to have more tipping in the white and red bands.
That should settle it I hope....Jeff

The best thing you can do for most milksnake books is to tear out the pictures. Sorry, but they're by and large inaccurate or an unusual example is portrayed and no normal specimen is used in the book. I can point out examples of the same snake (from different angles) used for very different subspecies. There's no excuse for that slop....
Jeff

Excellent responses, Jeff. Just what I was looking for. I'll count the red rings and look for crossovers. I don't remember seeing any. I'll let you know.

Walt

19 red rings, not one white scale on his head...

explain "crossovers". looks like all round rings to me.

so, Jalisco for sure???

Walt

The black of his head (not first ring) doesn't continue around on the underside of his mouth. It kind of outlines just under the bottom of his jaw.

Walt

There are exceptions to the band counts. Here are two nelsoni with 19(20?) and 20(21?) red bands. I do agree with the rest of your statements though; some nelsoni have red flecks on their snout too. This one looks like an arcifer to me too; a full body pic would be more telling. Plenty of pics in books are mislabeled also. Jaliscos are one of the most under rated Milk in my book, not sure why they are not more popular.

n/t

Arcifera look almost exactly like a Zonata. With cherry red bands. This one has the orange red color that annulata have and the band count as well. Maybe i'm wrong but I seriously don't think so. I have been specializing with annulata for some time now and that snake has all of the same caractoristics that annulata have.

Wayne Sanders

Tweek shed today (the first time since I got him).

He got about a third of the skin off and it broke. Then he worked his heiney off (figuratively) rubbing against the lava rocks, bark, and half coconut until the rest got off. I helped by soaking the paper towel I'd placed in there.

Look at this pic and tell me if Jalisco or Mexican. I think we ruled out Nelson's??

Walt

Disclaimer: These MX milks are not my department and w/o Kenneth Williams, I'd be lost here.
It's not Nelsoni-everybody agree??

The suggestion of Annulata is valid; bands are in range, head is dead on. How does the ventral look on your mystery snake? Rings continue across the ventral or is there a lot of black?
The expanded black bands on this mystery snake suggest Annulata.

Celaenops should have more red bands and some white on the snout and much narrower black bands. This is not a typical pet store ssp. and it's unlikely to find one from other than a true milkhead. They can be a pain.

Speaking of being a pain, would you kindly stretch the snake out on its back and give us a pic of the total ventral area? Sorry.

BTW crossovers are a merging of the black bands across the dosal to form an X shape. The red "band" inside that crossover is not included in band counts.
Expanded black bands are black bands becoming wider towards the dorsal-mystery snake has a couple.

I still like Arcifera but for the sake of accuracy and more confusion, let's see the vental area please.
You might ask Shannon Brown for pix of his old Arcifera stock. He has or had some of the original import animals that were good Arcifera and may even have kept the line going all this time.
All for now, Jeff

OK, here's a pic. I think his vent is at the black ring above the 6th yellow ring from his tail. It goes right around...

What does this tell you?

Thanks,

Walt

I've bugged him enough today, plus he shed today, so I think I'll leave him alone... lol

Walt

After seeing the ventral area of yours, I don't think you have a Mexican Milk (annulata). My Mexican Milk has extended red saddles that stop just short of the ventral area, where as in your pic, you have red that crosses over to form rings. What little info I can find on Jalisco Milks, says in my book that they have red rings that vary between 14-31, where as it says the Mexican Milks have extended red saddles. Yours might be a Jalisco after all.

Steve

Everything up until now looks anulata (i,e., head, triads, color). But I don't think the red bands connect on the ventral side of anulatas. So now I don't know.

I still don't see any arcifera characteristics at all. everything looks text book annulata. But after looking at the ventral I now have my doubts. The red rings don't complete around the ventral in annulata. Maybe it's one of those "Jim Kane un-described milks" from Mexico I think Applegate had some as well, they looked similar. That local, if I rember right has annulata and campbelli that could possibly intergrade.

Wayne Sanders

I really should'nt try to pull info out of my brain when I wake up. It's arcifera and campbelli that come close geographically for natural intergeade. But who knows. If it came from a breeder who works with arcifera then he would be one of the few and should'nt be that hard to get in contact with.

Wayne Sanders

The ventral pattern indicates that it's not Annulata and we're back to Arcifera I believe.
Here's a couple links to pics of Arcifera (and others) but please don't expect all Arcifera to look the same.

http://milksnakes.com/encyclopedia/arcifera.htm

http://www.reptilerooms.com/framepage.php?laction=showframe&requrl=http://www.pitt.edu/~mcs2/herp/Lampropeltis.html

Jeff

that's not a mexican,the belly shot clarified that i think...jalisco has:21 dorsal scale rows....14-31 red dorsal rings(yes,that's just snout to vent count)....7 or 8 upper labials...7 or 8 lower labials...192-217 ventrals...43-54 subcaudals...'black head sometimes with small white flecks'...................actually another possibilty is blanchard's milk(?!)...21-23 scale rows...206-224 ventrals...47-58 subcaudals...7-8 upper labials...8-9 lower labials...red rings 14-20...'head and snout black'.

Jim thinks it's most likely a Jalisco or a mutt or an interspecies Milk between Mexican/Jalisco.

I'll probably have to wait until he grows more and see what traits come out and how big he gets.

Thanks to everyone for their help/advice/analysis!!!

Walt