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looking for an article

thefiradragon Nov 09, 2005 01:34 PM

a long while ago there was an artile here that was about an 11 year old that was bitten by a rattlesnake. there was a link to a page that showed the whole process of his fascioectomy. ive been searching the web and this site for a long while and yet still cannot find it. could any of you guys help please?

thanks

ashley
-----
"I’m scared of those nasty big-eyed grey aliens, too. I think it’s that I don’t understand their motivations. I am confident of my ability to out-think, out-con, or if need be, tire-iron-upside-the-head demonic forces, ghosts and goblins, things that go bump in the night, etc. It’s the notion of something that doesn’t have any desire to talk to me except via anal probe that freaks me out"

Replies (33)

jasonmattes Nov 09, 2005 07:43 PM

This one maybe http://www.rattlesnakebite.org/

Shane_OK Nov 09, 2005 09:50 PM

Poor kid. Those are some ugly pictures, but they don't compete with some of those in VROTWH.
I'll be happy to see the day when fasciotomies are a thing of the past. From the posts that phobos made from the symposium, it appears that there is some conclusive evidence that they aren't needed????
Shane

P.S. I suppose the snake was oreganus
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Shane's Herp Lifelist
http://www.geocities.com/shane77@sbcglobal.net/my_page.html

jasonmattes Nov 09, 2005 10:09 PM

I believe the snake that bit the kid was a western..not 100% on that i'd have to re-read the article

taphillip Nov 09, 2005 11:26 PM

There has always been conclusive evidence that fasciotomy were not indicated for snake envenomations. Other traumatic injuries are another story. NEVER allow a doctor to perform one for snakebite.
(disclaimer)... "in my opinion"
-----
It's what you learn AFTER you know it all that counts!

Terry Phillip
Curator of Reptiles
Black Hills Reptile Gardens
Rapid City, SD.

www.reptilegardens.com

Shane_OK Nov 09, 2005 11:55 PM

"There has always been conclusive evidence that fasciotomy were not indicated for snake envenomations."

Well, somewhere in the equation, conclusive and indicated were lost!

Shane
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Shane's Herp Lifelist
http://www.geocities.com/shane77@sbcglobal.net/my_page.html

rabies Nov 10, 2005 01:05 AM

Fasciotomy are rarely called for in snake envenomations. When extensive swelling is present it is imperative that the attending physician physicaly measures the pressures within the effected area and not to use his/her x-ray vision! At times compartment pressures can be high, the procedure should be to aggressively administer more antivenom and possibley use an osmotic diuretic as well. But even with the correct treatment a fasciotomy may be required, especially where fingers are involved due to their small "compartments" drastic swelling, as seen in certain snake bites could compramise blood vessels and nerves.
As private keepers you should have some form of protocol expressing your views on this procedure, it would be daft to explicitly refuse to have the procedure done, but to emphasise the importance of physically measuring the effected compartments and to administer appropriate amounts of antivenom. And also to contact knowledeagable people in the field of snake bite.

John
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"Its no help to hide behind the statement that snake bite accidents are a rarity and that the average Dr seldom or never will treat one. For the bitten patient, it is a matter of life or death, and the rarity of the event is of no interest to him."

Shane_OK Nov 10, 2005 01:50 AM

"But even with the correct treatment a fasciotomy may be required,...."

That says a lot.

Shane
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Shane's Herp Lifelist
http://www.geocities.com/shane77@sbcglobal.net/my_page.html

phobos Nov 10, 2005 05:01 AM

I agree with Terry's comment...I would "Fire" the Doctor and demand a new one. Nobody is going to "carve" me up to treat a snakebite.

The problem is so many local doctors don't have a clue about the current protocols in snakebite management and are still causing more damage than the bite itself. Like the 11 yr old with the Atrox bite you refered to in the first post. This is WHY I PREACH taking a medically sound species specific protocol with you to the hospital along with the contact phone numbers of physicians who know how to manage snakebites.

Finally, don't be intimidated by the doctor, you are perfectly within your rights to say NO to any part of the treatment he or she proposes. The only treatment for snakebite is prompt administration of the specific antiserum if medically indicated.

-----
"Snakes in Peru are not there for decoration, they really bite people."

Professor David Warrell, Omaha 10/21/05

jasonmattes Nov 10, 2005 11:14 AM

Whats the best way to come up with a specific protocal for a certain species?

phobos Nov 10, 2005 11:56 AM

This website has some of the best protocols available but need to be updated and personalized.

You also should have a seperate section that has a brief medical history including current drugs you maybe taking and your personal physicians contact info.

Al
Protocol Index

-----
"Snakes in Peru are not there for decoration, they really bite people."

Professor David Warrell, Omaha 10/21/05

Shane_OK Nov 10, 2005 04:14 PM

I guess what I was looking for was some specifics from the symposium. Did the conclusion that they aren't necessary come from hard evidence (e.g. a patient or doctor refused to allow/perform the surgery, despite compartment syndrome)? Or rather, was it just mentioned that they are often unnecessary?
I don't keep hots anymore, but I'm in the field with atrox often enough that this is a concern to me.
Shane

P.S. atrox don't range anywhere close to Yosemite NP.
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Shane's Herp Lifelist
http://www.geocities.com/shane77@sbcglobal.net/my_page.html

Rabies Nov 10, 2005 10:54 AM

"That says alot"
Every patient has to be treated as an individual, there is no protocol thats say's do this that and the other and the out come will be the same. In a servere rattlesnake envenomation, swelling can involve the whole limb within the hour! So if your bitten on your finger by the time you get yourselves to a hospital, lets say 1hr post bite. That finger is going to be a mess. Unfortunately comparment pressures can't be measured in digits, so you have to rely on the judgment of the surgeon. The procedure is not as brutal as in a normal fasciotomy, and only involves cutting the skin, Watt (1985)South Med Journal.
Another aspect is the hillbilly that sits at home for hours on end because he's a tough guy, by the time he gets to medical treatment he/she may have a comparment syndrome! There are to many variables to mention, don't be fooled to think that comparment syndrome doesn't happen in snake bite, it does! But with the correct treament in those circumstances were it could arise, the possibility is drasticaly reduced.
At the end of the day the decision is yours! All i can recommend is that if the attending doctor thinks you have a compartment syndrome, get him/her to physically measure the pressures with an appropriate device.

John
-----
"Its no help to hide behind the statement that snake bite accidents are a rarity and that the average Dr seldom or never will treat one. For the bitten patient, it is a matter of life or death, and the rarity of the event is of no interest to him."

Greg Longhurst Nov 10, 2005 02:42 PM

A lot of doctors will want to perform the fasciotomy before they go to the trouble of measuring the pressure caused by the swelling. I know of at least one..he happened to be attending me after a cottonmouth bite. When I told him that I would walk out of the hospital before allowing the procedure, he backed off & did the measuring. My bite was on the back of the right hand at the knuckle line. Swelling was such that three days post-bite, upon my release, my tee-shirt sleeve nearly tore going on over the arm. That happened in '90. There has never been any sign of the bite or loss of flexibility since shortly after recuperation. The Wyeth worked well, although I did have a few days of serum sickness afterwards. I would venture to say that the vast majority of fasciotomies performed upon victims of snakebite are not necessary.

~~Greg~~

Shane_OK Nov 10, 2005 04:22 PM

So, basically, what you're saying is, yes, a fasciotomy is required in rare cases?
Shane
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Shane's Herp Lifelist
http://www.geocities.com/shane77@sbcglobal.net/my_page.html

Rabies Nov 10, 2005 05:41 PM

That's correct. Even when elevated compartment pressures have been recorded, agressive treatment with antivenom, osmotic diuretics and limb elevation have in most cases reduced the compartmental pressure to an exceptable level. Its very rare that fasciotomy is truely neeeded.

John
-----
"Its no help to hide behind the statement that snake bite accidents are a rarity and that the average Dr seldom or never will treat one. For the bitten patient, it is a matter of life or death, and the rarity of the event is of no interest to him."

taphillip Nov 10, 2005 08:00 PM

"That's correct. Even when elevated compartment pressures have been recorded, agressive treatment with antivenom, osmotic diuretics and limb elevation have in most cases reduced the compartmental pressure to an exceptable level. Its very rare that fasciotomy is truely neeeded. "

Not to be argumentative...but, do you or anyone else have a "very rare case history showing that fasciotomy was truly needed?

As I know there are plenty that show it was NOT needed.

People seem to forget that snake venom does do damage some of which is permanent. I can't imagine what fasciotomy does to those poor nerves and blood vessels in fingers that have been butchered!

Unless intracompartmental pressure hits 30 mm Hg or more, fasciotomy is not indicated. Even if compartment pressure increases, the aggressive use of Antivenom and Hyperbaric oxygen is the best method of treatment for that symptom of snake envenomation.

Just think of the damage and longterm-permanent- damage a fasciotomy will ALWAYS cause.
Also, think about the occasional permanent damage caused by snake envenomation. Most of which is caused by infection...
Fascitomy= disfigurement, months even years of skin grafts and infections, some of which are life threatening and permanent damage to most of the bitten limb.

Honestly, if you know of any case histories confirming the occasional indication and appropriate use for fasciotomy, I and many others would certainly like to see them!

Fasciotomy was intitially designed for crushing traumatic injury and the resulting edema(swelling) not for snake envenomation a completely different cause for swelling.
Best Regards,

-----
It's what you learn AFTER you know it all that counts!

Terry Phillip
Curator of Reptiles
Black Hills Reptile Gardens
Rapid City, SD.

www.reptilegardens.com

rabies Nov 11, 2005 03:26 AM

"I can't imagine what fasciotomy does to those poor nerves and blood vessels in fingers that have been butchered!"

"The finger is essentially a very small compartment. Because of the small diameter, the elastic limit of the skin is rapidly reached. Because of this limited capacity to swell and the complexity of the structures within the finger, even a small area of tissue loss and scar may result in functional deficits. The finger is the most common area of persistant complaints from patients with crotaline snake bite.
Unfortunately there are no practical methods to measure compartment pressure in the finger. Therefore, the diagnosis of compartment sysndrome in the finger must be made on clinical grounds. The tense, blue or pale envenomated finger with absent or poor capillary refill is the one instance in which it seems reasonable to open the "comparment" on clinical grounds alone. This process has been termed digit dermtomy, THIS PROCEDURE CONSISTS OF A LONGITUDINAL INCISION THROUGH THE SKIN ONLY. THIS SHOULD ALWAYS BE PERFORMED ON THE MEDIAL OR LATERAL ASPECT OF THE DIGIT TO EXTEND FROM THE WEB TO THE MID PORTION OF THE DISTAL PHALANX. USING A SHALLOW INCISION AND SPREADING THE SKIN WITH A HEMOSTAT AVOIDS INJURY TO THE UNDERLYING NEUROMUSCULAR BUNDLE." Hall, E.L. (2000)(upercase to high light the procedure, I'm not shouting lol)
I'm all against the general use of fasciotomy(therefore agreeing with what you say), 99.9% are most probably uncalled for. But when people like Prof D. Warrell have protocols as what to do in raised compartment pressure and when to perform a fasciotomy, then the dangers must be there. I personally take his word as gospel, if he informed me that I needed the procedure, I would not hesitate.
Unfortunately in the US you have advocates in this procedure, the strongest being Glass, T.G. (1971) "Snakebite". Hosp Med Vol 3 PP 31-55.
Two needed procedures were: Watt, C.H. (1985) "Treatment of poisonous snakebite with emphisis on digit dertomy" South Med Journal Vol 78 PP 694-699
and Pennell, T.E.et al (1987) "The management of snake and spider bites in the southeastern US" AM Surg Vol 53 PP 198-204

The main danger is digits, and Watts has great success rate in patients keeping their fingers and having full range of movement after.
The importance of having written protocols with you can't be stressed enough, with your views and or management on compartment pressures. Who's to say you have your whits about you to discuss procedures after you have been bitten?

This is my protocols, cut and paste at your own risk!(anyone in general)

Fasciotomy and Compartment syndrome.
The "old school" method of treating snake bite involved physical surgery. Modern
researchers have since discovered more effective ways to medically manage
envenomations without invasive physical trauma, but because snake bite is such
a rare occurrence, the average doctor will not be up to date in this field and the
average hospital will still be working from treatment protocols that do not take
these recent changes into account. True compartment syndrome is considered
rare in a properly managed envenomation where sufficient antivenom is
administered - but the effects of envenomation may be difficult to distinguish from
compartment syndrome, leading the doctor to perform an inappropriate
fasciotomy.90% of snake bites involve the SUBCUTANEOUS level only,any concern for the swelling that may arise the compartment pressures must be measured and consulted before fasciotomy is to be performed.Through the appropiate treatment and the administration of adequate amount of Anti-venom will help reduce any swelling and also revert any coagulopathy disorders.

It should be noted that fascial compartment syndrome in rattlesnake envenomations is very rare. Limbs may swell significantly, but rarely involve specific fascially bound compartments. If however the logistics of the bite raise a high index of suspicion for Compartment Syndrome, monitoring with a Wick Catheter or appropriate pressure devices may be necessary. Fasciotomy is rarely if ever recommended in these patients.

Yours Sincerely

The patient.

Management of possible compartment syndrome after Crotalid envenomation

1.Determine intracompartmental pressure.

2.If not elevated, continue standard management.

3.If signs of compartment syndrome are present and compartment pressure is > 30mm/hg:
a. Elevate limb
b. Administer mannitol 1 to 2 g/kg IV over 30 minutes.
c. Simultaneously administer additional appropriate (Crotalidae) Antivenin, 10 to 15 vials over 60 minutes.
d. If elevated compartment pressure persists another 60 minutes, consider fasciotomy.

Notes: 1. Elevated compartment pressure is caused by the action of the venom on the tissues, and thus, the most effective treatment is to neutralize the venom, which in many cases will reduce the compartment pressure.

2.This protocol delivers a high osmotic load and should not be used when contraindicated. The protocol must be completed promptly so that, if ever needed, fasciotomy may be performed as early as possible.
John
-----
"Its no help to hide behind the statement that snake bite accidents are a rarity and that the average Dr seldom or never will treat one. For the bitten patient, it is a matter of life or death, and the rarity of the event is of no interest to him."

taphillip Nov 11, 2005 09:25 AM

So in otherwords we're discussing two totally different procedures. Digit dermtomy and fasciotomy.
I still fail to see the relavence in slicing the skin. but thats just me. I'm sure Dr. Watts has great success with this procedure. I would also venture to guess that antivenom is given as well. So what is causing the great success?

The point is and there is alot of details that go with this statement. "Prompt and proper administration of adequate stores of antivenom is the only effective means of treating snake envenomation." The emphasis in this country should be to teach doctors how to appropriatly administer Prompt and proper use of AV. As well as teaching the general public how to respond immediately after an envenomation. Those are the primary reasons for inadequate digit and limb function following a snakebite.

Dr. Glass originated the procedure for snakebites as a REPLACEMENT to Antivenom. Not in addition too or to treat symptomatically.. Purely as a replacement. And the level of disfigurement was gross negligence/experimentation.

The risks of infections and failed skin grafts etc. far out weigh any minor benefit a digit dermtomy may incur in my protocols.
Not arguing, simply showing two sides of the fence.
Ahh good fun.
This just goes to show the need for a standardized method of snakebite management in the U.S. Our clinical understanding of snakebite mgmt. rates right up there with most 3rd world countries. For most hospitals and physicians....
-----
It's what you learn AFTER you know it all that counts!

Terry Phillip
Curator of Reptiles
Black Hills Reptile Gardens
Rapid City, SD.

www.reptilegardens.com

rabies Nov 11, 2005 10:47 AM

"in the U.S. Our clinical understanding of snakebite mgmt. rates right up there with most 3rd world countries. For most hospitals and physicians...." I'll think you find some 3rd world countries have far more experience and knowledge than the US!
"Prompt and proper administration of adequate stores of antivenom is the only effective means of treating snake envenomation." Very true, the problem in the US is that some doctors think they have x-ray vision and by looking at a swollen discoloured blistered limb, proceed with a scalpel. The fact that they might only just see one or two bites doesn't mean they are going to rush out and learn the latest procedures. Dr Glass is a complete idiot! I just mentioned him to show the problems you have in trying to educated doctors along the correct pathway.

"far out weigh any minor benefit a digit dermtomy may incur in my protocols." If diagnosed correctly this procedure has saved your finger! It also does not require skin grafts! Peolple have lost finger tips due to a simple thorn or needle prick, due to an infection causing swelling in the pulp spaces, shuting off blood supply and leading to necrosis of the bone. Check out the anatomy of a finger, there is no room for prolonged swelling.

All I'm trying to say is that even though it is very very rare, fasciotomy have been required. A raised compartment pressure does not mean "scalpel" but aggressive treatment with appropriate antivenom and possibly an osmotic diuretic! What would be an appropriate amount of antivenom for a local hospital to stock in the US? Fine if its a US species, but problems arise with exotic snakes, US has a large number of private collections.

"Those are the primary reasons for inadequate digit and limb function following a snakebite." In the envenomed patient (US pitvipers) there is normaly signs of swelling in the first 15 mins. Now if you receive a severe envenomation, the whole limb can be massively swollen within the hour. If the intial bite was in the finger, the perfusion within the bitten digit is going to be severley comprimised. Antivenom is good but not quick. By the time you have gotten yourself to a hospital and checked in and lets say an appropriate doctor is on hand, its been an hour at least, since the bite has happened. The doctor has to decide if he wants to give you antivenom, he then reads the dosage information and decides to give you 6 vials(thats the max advised initial dose), it takes 30-45 Minutes to constitute each vial, thats on a good day. That done its then further diluted into a drip of 250ml and given over an hour! The patient is then re assessed and further dosages are given until initial control of the envenomation is achieved. Initial control, ie swelling progression has stoped, any bleeding or coagulation has stopped. Antivenom is great at neutralising venom in the blood circulation but its still not clear how affective it is at neutralising venom in tissue.

If you dont want a fasciotomy full stop, then document it. I dislike the inappropriate way it has been used but I know that with certain snakes and certain areas of the body comparment syndrome can arise giving the inexperienced doctor grounds to play butcher, hence why I have protocols to explain to them what other options there are available to them and fasciotomy is only to be done once these are exausted.
Remember not all hospitals are going to have an experienced Sean Bush or Russell Findlay greeting them.

John
God I'm getting blisters, I've never typed so much LOL
-----
"Its no help to hide behind the statement that snake bite accidents are a rarity and that the average Dr seldom or never will treat one. For the bitten patient, it is a matter of life or death, and the rarity of the event is of no interest to him."

phobos Nov 10, 2005 06:58 PM

Shane:

Read the paper yourself (see below) The authors were at the symposium and I know them well. Dr. Dart is a top notch snakebite doc.

I tend to side with Greg since he is proof positive that they are done way too much and to soon in the treatment process.

It's a real money maker for the Surgeons with many proceedures to follow repair their handy work. This was told to me by another "Venom Doc" at the BOR symposium.

I would have thought (as its been reported in the past)he would have had serious problems with that hand from that bite. He didn't because he told the Doc where to go.

I heard of a bite from a Copperhead a few weeks ago in Ohio. The doc's split this poor little girls leg wide open from the ankle to the hip....for a damn Copperhead bite. WHY!! I told the family to sue the docs & hospital.

Al

Paper courtesy of Dr. Fry's website

Fasciotomy Paper

-----
"Snakes in Peru are not there for decoration, they really bite people."

Professor David Warrell, Omaha 10/21/05

Shane_OK Nov 10, 2005 08:27 PM

Al, I would like to read the paper, but the link isn't working.
Personally, I'd blow-off any doctor who even hinted at a fasciotomy due to Agkistrodon or Sistrurus, but I also know that those snakes aren't one of these:

While I purposely avoid dense areas of vegetation, where I know they are present, I still venture into their domain, and if it came down to fasciotomy or limb, I think I would choose to keep the limb.
I'm looking forward to reading Bryan's research, but thus far, it seems that there is no conclusive evidence that a fasciotomy is never required; there is only conclusive evidence that the procedure is used way too often.
In regard to the copperhead bite, what a shame, and I agree, that doctor should be punished. I remember this saying:
"There's always a doctor who graduated last in the class."
Shane
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Shane's Herp Lifelist
http://www.geocities.com/shane77@sbcglobal.net/my_page.html

phobos Nov 11, 2005 06:50 AM

Shane...

Try this:

http://www2.us.elsevierhealth.com/inst/serve?action=searchDB&searchDBfor=art&artType=fullfree&id=as019606440400280x&special=hilite&query=[contribs](dart,)

It seems the link URL box below limits the number of characters submitted.

Al
-----
"Snakes in Peru are not there for decoration, they really bite people."

Professor David Warrell, Omaha 10/21/05

Shane_OK Nov 11, 2005 06:02 PM

np
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Shane's Herp Lifelist
http://www.geocities.com/shane77@sbcglobal.net/my_page.html

zagarus42 Nov 11, 2005 02:14 AM

Al,

As a medical student in Ohio, and a possible future physician in the state, I am very curious as to knowing where this took place. If you don't feel comfortable posting this online, I would appeciate any links to newspaper articles or even a private email. I tend to agree that fasciotomies are rarely, if ever indicated, but I will wait to learn more from both sides before I make any conclusive statements, one way or the other. The one thing I have learned about medicine is there are no absolutes. This is always an interesting topic, and one I love to revisit over and over again.

If one were to ask me right now where I stand, I will say that in 99.99999 percent of the cases fasciotomies are NOT indicated and are a harmful practice. If there happens to be that one case in which an elevated compartmental pressure is recorded and all other methods are exhausted without any positive results, I would be left with a very hard decision. Luckily, I still have much to learn and I am in no position to make such decisions myself right now...

Sincerely,

Jason Folt

foltjr AT email.uc.edu

phobos Nov 11, 2005 06:55 AM

Jason:

Currently my schedule is full, so full I feel like I'm trying to bail out the Titanic. I have no time to look up the specifics. Send me an off line email to remind me and I'll put it in the que.

Al
-----
"Snakes in Peru are not there for decoration, they really bite people."

Professor David Warrell, Omaha 10/21/05

zagarus42 Nov 11, 2005 08:46 AM

Al,

I know exactly what you mean. There is no big rush, I will get in touch with you a bit later.

Thanks,

Jason

thefiradragon Nov 10, 2005 10:08 PM

you don't know how much i love you right now :ecks cheek::

now i only need to find the odds of death or injury from snake bite compaired to other things

thanks again
ashley

>>This one maybe http://www.rattlesnakebite.org/
-----
"I’m scared of those nasty big-eyed grey aliens, too. I think it’s that I don’t understand their motivations. I am confident of my ability to out-think, out-con, or if need be, tire-iron-upside-the-head demonic forces, ghosts and goblins, things that go bump in the night, etc. It’s the notion of something that doesn’t have any desire to talk to me except via anal probe that freaks me out"

jasonmattes Nov 10, 2005 10:10 PM

The odds of death are pretty darn low from a rattlesnake bite if proper medical treatment is given.
Are you trying to talk somone out of getting a hot?

thefiradragon Nov 11, 2005 10:30 AM

no sir. i have a class report on the western diamondback and just wanted to include it. the images are to show a possibility of what could happen if you are out in the back country fooling around. i know the odds of dying froma bite is remote when you have the proper medical care with in short time. i am looking from a stand point of being 2 hours plus away from a hospital at the time of bite.

thanks again

ashley
-----
"I’m scared of those nasty big-eyed grey aliens, too. I think it’s that I don’t understand their motivations. I am confident of my ability to out-think, out-con, or if need be, tire-iron-upside-the-head demonic forces, ghosts and goblins, things that go bump in the night, etc. It’s the notion of something that doesn’t have any desire to talk to me except via anal probe that freaks me out"

Shane_OK Nov 11, 2005 11:13 PM

Here's what I've gathered from it:

First, and most important, is that a written bite protocol (personal preference, at your own risk) should be in hand as you enter the hospital.

Second, in very rare circumstances, a limb fasciotomy isn't out of the question, if proper measurements have been taken. As ugly as it is, there's no conclusive evidence that it doesn't save limb function, and vice versa. I'll just try to not get bitten

Third, fingers are a different story, and a much smaller scar.

Fourth, I need to get busy typing my own protocols, at my own risk. I should have done this a long time ago.

Fifth, thanks for all of the input guys (rabies, you should get those blisters checked on).

Shane
-----
Shane's Herp Lifelist
http://www.geocities.com/shane77@sbcglobal.net/my_page.html

rabies Nov 12, 2005 03:24 AM

I "ouch" will, "ouch" thanks "ouch" LOL

John
-----
"Its no help to hide behind the statement that snake bite accidents are a rarity and that the average Dr seldom or never will treat one. For the bitten patient, it is a matter of life or death, and the rarity of the event is of no interest to him."

taphillip Nov 14, 2005 02:10 PM

Funny, I got just the opposite. I didn't see any conclusive evidence nor case histories that limb fasciotomies have ever been needed nor successful. As for fingers, I still didn't see that evidence, even though we were talking about two different medical surgeries. A fasciotomy and a few subcutaneous cuts are very different procedures. I still don't see the real benefit of either...

Agreed that protocols for each person should be written long before aquisition of venomous species. Including hopefully a self thorough research of the two procedures to understand the consequences of both, either or neither.

It's a shame that in this country their isn't, can't and won't be a standardized method of treatment for our native species. Not to mention keeper understanding and accessibility to exotic AV's and their appropriate usage and treatment.
Regards,
T-
-----
It's what you learn AFTER you know it all that counts!

Terry Phillip
Curator of Reptiles
Black Hills Reptile Gardens
Rapid City, SD.

www.reptilegardens.com

Shane_OK Nov 15, 2005 03:05 AM

Funny, I got just the opposite. I didn't see any conclusive evidence nor case histories that limb fasciotomies have ever been needed nor successful. As for fingers, I still didn't see that evidence, even though we were talking about two different medical surgeries. A fasciotomy and a few subcutaneous cuts are very different procedures. I still don't see the real benefit of either...

It's your choice. There's no conclusive evidence that it doesn't save limb function (didn't I say that?). The only way the answer will be reasonably conclusive, is when quite a few people "daftly?" refuse fasciotomy, despite highly elevated compartment pressures, over a significant amount of time. Then, the results can be compared.

It's a shame that in this country their isn't, can't and won't be a standardized method of treatment for our native species. Not to mention keeper understanding and accessibility to exotic AV's and their appropriate usage and treatment.

There isn't a standardized method now (whatever that means; each envenomation is different), but that doesn't mean the knowledge-base isn't expanding. In regard to exotic species...not me, unless I'm dealing with them in the field.

Shane
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Shane's Herp Lifelist
http://www.geocities.com/shane77@sbcglobal.net/my_page.html

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