Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I know this is old news but I think it's a new theory. At least I have'nt heard it.
At first I thought a larger male may have killed the gator the snake ate. I had 2 problems with that : 1st I don't think snakes are ever the first to stumble across a dead animal.
There are to many other scavengers who are much more able to discover a dead animal.
2nd territorial disputes typically don't end in death. Usually the subordinate animal is chased away. Then why would the snake attack the gator. There must be tons of stuff to eat in the everglades muskrat,nutria,beaver?, ducks and millions of other waterfowl,my gosh a smaller gator.
Today I had an epiphany(which has nothing to do with eating to many prunes).
That snake did'nt attack that gator. That gator attacked that snake. Only when that huge 13 foot body rolled out of the water and wrapped up that gator did he realize the magnitude of his mistake.
The 3 biggest snakes in the U.S. indigo, bullsnake and EDB
FL has at least 2. (Don't think they have bullsnakes.) 8 feet for any of these snakes is extremely large. The indigo would proably be the only snake interested in a gator and that would be under 2 feet or so.
The point being alligators don't look at snakes as predators they look at them as prey.
I would'nt recommend trying this but some years ago my crocs were divided by size and temperment. I had 3 concrete enclosures. This is in my reptile building so it is also housing my snakes. On the occasion when I would do something stupid and a large snake would "escape" and be roaming the building it was very interesting. Caimens of any size in any enclosure would be freaking out ! Literally climbing the walls to get away from this perceived threat. Crocs were totally dependent on size. Depending on the snake 3 ft and smaller crocs would show some form of anxiety. Gators paid no attention. They simply did not see this animal as a threat. Down through the millenium in their world snakes were not a threat to gators.
Not surprisingly caimens of all sizes reacted the most violently. Does not matter that that individual animal has never seen a monster anaconda. Something in his little brain tells him this is a problem.
Back to FL. Our gator never dreamed of a snake that big. He saw a big watersnake that may last him till spring.
When that gator bit down on the snake out of reflex the snake wrapped him up. Then it was anyones game. After KILLING him. He swallowed him. To big of a meal the snake tried to throw up he died. Brain the most delectable part of the animal was eaten by a scavenger. The burm either spontaneously erupted from the gas buildup or another scavenger picked it enough to burst him open.
Just a theory obviously I was'nt there.
Danny Conner

Danny,

I like the theory and it makes sense. However, I guess I have yet another question. Typically, snakes will simply only bite in defense. But they dont' typically constrict as a result? If the gator attacked the snake...then this would have provoked the snake most likely trying to escape from the gators grip to fight back? Most defense bites...are just that...a bite. I have handled numberous constrictors...of various sizes. The ones who were more defensive would only bite...but never had one try to constrict my hand or anything of that sort. Not to say that it doesnt' happen, it's just that, I have never heard of any snakes constricting out of defense.

Now, just my thought or opinion on the subject. Do you think it is more likely that the two happened to simply "bump" into one another? Perhaps the gator was coming onto land when the Burm was moving to another location. The two happened upon each other and simply out of reaction...BAM! The snake could have been a bit hungry and was searching for food and the gator just happened within it's path. You mentioned in your post to me below that a dog or other equivalent animal isn't typically a food animal for even a wild snake, but it could have been out of opportunity and the current size of the animal from what the snake might have been able to see which caused the snake to strike. Of course, once the snake is in full constriction it would be foolish to release the animal as then the animal if not dead has the ability to attack you. It seems like a more natural response.

Just a thought..not to argue. Good topic.

Chris

>>I know this is old news but I think it's a new theory. At least I have'nt heard it.
>>At first I thought a larger male may have killed the gator the snake ate. I had 2 problems with that : 1st I don't think snakes are ever the first to stumble across a dead animal.
>>There are to many other scavengers who are much more able to discover a dead animal.
>>2nd territorial disputes typically don't end in death. Usually the subordinate animal is chased away. Then why would the snake attack the gator. There must be tons of stuff to eat in the everglades muskrat,nutria,beaver?, ducks and millions of other waterfowl,my gosh a smaller gator.
>>Today I had an epiphany(which has nothing to do with eating to many prunes).
>>That snake did'nt attack that gator. That gator attacked that snake. Only when that huge 13 foot body rolled out of the water and wrapped up that gator did he realize the magnitude of his mistake.
>>The 3 biggest snakes in the U.S. indigo, bullsnake and EDB
>>FL has at least 2. (Don't think they have bullsnakes.) 8 feet for any of these snakes is extremely large. The indigo would proably be the only snake interested in a gator and that would be under 2 feet or so.
>>The point being alligators don't look at snakes as predators they look at them as prey.
>>I would'nt recommend trying this but some years ago my crocs were divided by size and temperment. I had 3 concrete enclosures. This is in my reptile building so it is also housing my snakes. On the occasion when I would do something stupid and a large snake would "escape" and be roaming the building it was very interesting. Caimens of any size in any enclosure would be freaking out ! Literally climbing the walls to get away from this perceived threat. Crocs were totally dependent on size. Depending on the snake 3 ft and smaller crocs would show some form of anxiety. Gators paid no attention. They simply did not see this animal as a threat. Down through the millenium in their world snakes were not a threat to gators.
>>Not surprisingly caimens of all sizes reacted the most violently. Does not matter that that individual animal has never seen a monster anaconda. Something in his little brain tells him this is a problem.
>>Back to FL. Our gator never dreamed of a snake that big. He saw a big watersnake that may last him till spring.
>>When that gator bit down on the snake out of reflex the snake wrapped him up. Then it was anyones game. After KILLING him. He swallowed him. To big of a meal the snake tried to throw up he died. Brain the most delectable part of the animal was eaten by a scavenger. The burm either spontaneously erupted from the gas buildup or another scavenger picked it enough to burst him open.
>>Just a theory obviously I was'nt there.
>>Danny Conner

Hey, Chris...

Long-time, no speak. I just had a couple of thoughts to interject:

I believe that Danny's theory is a viable one. As for the constrictor wrapping the gator, it is very likely it would.

You mentioned the repsonse of the constrictor to a human handler vs. a that of an alligator. The difference between a gator confronting the snake and a handler confronting it is usually the level of violence. If the gator grabbed that snake, it likely did so with relatively great violence, that is, teeth sinking with about 1800 lbs. of pressure per square ich, and perhaps some thrashing or rolling.

Given this scenario, the python fought fire with fire.

As for 'bumping' into each other, it is very unlikely. Remember that both of these predators are known for their stealth, and have ways of detecting creatures around them. For instance, with the alligator, a study has shown that the integumentary sensory organs (ISO's)lining the jaws, may detect degrees of movement in the water for quite a distance (I believe the number was up to 100 feet). It is easy for each of them to misjudge size at water's level -- the surface can be optically deceptive, especially with the reptiles' limited scope. I agree with Danny that it is possible they misjudged size (one or both of them did, anyway)as opposed to just bumping into each other. I believe this kind of transaction is more common than most think. The difference with the norm is that it was a large constrictor in this case -- rather than a native banded water snake or cottonmouth water snake, among others.

Those are excellent questions you asked, and these are just some thoughts that came to me when reading them.

Happy posting!
-----
Israel Dupont
Winter Haven, FL

Hi Izzy,

You mentioned 1800 psi when talking of the bite force of the alligator in that incident. I've seen some of Kent Valiet's data using the "bite-o-meter" that reported (if memory serves) 2200 psi in an adult gator in the 12 foot range.

Of course one variable, as Mr. Valiet pointed out, is the gator exerting as much force on a couple plates attached to a hydraulic cylinder as it would if bringing down a large animal or in a combative situation?

They were also experimenting with using composite materials that were not as obtrusive as the "bite-o-meter" and calculating bite force based on the impression remaining in the material. T-Rex bite force was estimated based on the impressions left in fossil bones. I believe they used a cow femur as a base for comparison.

I have never seen data that tracks psi in various sizes of gators but would be very interested in that information. My assumption would be that bite force would multiply by orders of magnitude as the gator got larger and larger.

Have you ever seen this data? Or know if it exists?

One other question since you mentioned it. You stated that you'd read somewhere that the domed pressure receptors were sensitive to 100 feet (or so). I have not seen any data on this other than the initial papers written by Daphne Soars when she discovered how they worked. Can you point me to further information on this? This is something that interests me too.

Thanks,

Bill

Bill,

Thanks for your response. You'll notice that I framed my post this morning to explain that my thoughts were popped from the top of my head, pre-caffeine consumption. That being said...

Regarding Integumentary Receptory Organs, er…ahem, Dome Pressure Receptors: I will get back to you with an answer as to where I got that. As I wrote this morning, I was not certain of the data, but I believe it was in a documentary film on crocodilians, of which I have many. I remember being impressed with the info because I had not read of it in the coverage of Ms. Soares’ papers. It seemed to me that someone picked up the baton and took the DPR study further. I’m sharing an impression only, so I’ll have to look further into it. My point in this morning’s post, at least, was to express the remarkable ability of the alligator to sense movement around him.

As for the point of the bite force of the alligator in question, it appears that the alligator specimen reported in the story is smaller than I recollect. I had read this story only once several weeks ago (though 10,000 people I know emailed it me!) and I had the idea that it was larger. The point that I was trying to emphasize was that a bite from the gator to the python could potentially be tremendous, thus the difference in a python's response to a biting gator vs. a grasping human handler.

More on bite force: This whole subject is a bit nebulous, isn't it? As far as I know, we only have generalities to work with. I look forward to more detailed studies being conducted as to distribution of the force. I have not read any existing papers on the subject (and if you could steer me to them I'd be grateful). I have copies of the video publications of National Geographic's "Realm of the Alligator" and "SuperCroc," both of which refer to bite force studies, but my recollection of them is that they are inconsistent. I’d be interested to hear other’s comments on this if they are familiar with both films.

I also was confused as to why another, much later study was being done (as seen in the "SuperCroc" program), seemingly exactly the way Kent did it, more than 20 years ago. (David Kledzik, if you're reading this, can you offer any thoughts on these studies? At least one was performed at St. Aug Alligator Farm. And, hey, by the way, when are you and Kent coming back to Orlando to finish the croc mobility study?)

At my workplace, we follow a generalized chart of jaw pressure numbers for approximate sizes of alligators when we lecture to guests or answer questions. I was thinking that the aforementioned alligator was approx. 10 feet long; This evening, I called up the articles again and looked -- it appears that it was approx. six feet in length according to reports, and seems to be so, judging by the photograph. Thus, I would have to decrease my bite estimation incrementally.

Based on the documentaries, I have reached my own generalized conclusions as to bite forces for respective sizes of gators. In fact, after seeing "Realm of the Alligator," I altered some of my views because I found the two inconsistent. The impression I got was that the bite force is greater than I’d thought. It is not difficult for me to articulate this to the layman (a.k.a. tourist), who seeks only basic information -- When you explain general bite force, the basics are impressive enough. As for the inconsistencies, or my perception of such, I will try to find the time view them again so I can write up those points.

It will be especially hard to find the time considering I spend so much time writing these overwrought posts.
-----
Israel Dupont
Winter Haven, FL

Good Point! You got me thinking about that, and that certainly makes sense.

Works for me!

Chris

>>Hey, Chris...
>>
>>Long-time, no speak. I just had a couple of thoughts to interject:
>>
>>I believe that Danny's theory is a viable one. As for the constrictor wrapping the gator, it is very likely it would.
>>
>>You mentioned the repsonse of the constrictor to a human handler vs. a that of an alligator. The difference between a gator confronting the snake and a handler confronting it is usually the level of violence. If the gator grabbed that snake, it likely did so with relatively great violence, that is, teeth sinking with about 1800 lbs. of pressure per square ich, and perhaps some thrashing or rolling.
>>
>>Given this scenario, the python fought fire with fire.
>>
>>As for 'bumping' into each other, it is very unlikely. Remember that both of these predators are known for their stealth, and have ways of detecting creatures around them. For instance, with the alligator, a study has shown that the integumentary sensory organs (ISO's)lining the jaws, may detect degrees of movement in the water for quite a distance (I believe the number was up to 100 feet). It is easy for each of them to misjudge size at water's level -- the surface can be optically deceptive, especially with the reptiles' limited scope. I agree with Danny that it is possible they misjudged size (one or both of them did, anyway)as opposed to just bumping into each other. I believe this kind of transaction is more common than most think. The difference with the norm is that it was a large constrictor in this case -- rather than a native banded water snake or cottonmouth water snake, among others.
>>
>>Those are excellent questions you asked, and these are just some thoughts that came to me when reading them.
>>
>>Happy posting!
>>-----
>>Israel Dupont
>>Winter Haven, FL

Chris,

have you ever seen a python bite another one out of food response? They both usually go into constriction mode.

Just an observation.

Bill

Hey Bill,

Yes, I understand that out of food response they will go into constriction. When a feeding response is triggered..is is sometimes bite first smell later. It is natural that when a feeding response is triggered, a bite, and then constriction...and as you know it is done immediately following the bite with no hesitation. If they hesitate, they can lose a meal. I was just thinking that I had never seen a snake constrict out of defense before. I have personally never seen a large boid constrict another boid out of feeding response either. I assume that this would be the reason why feeding in separate caging would be recommended as opposed to feeding them in the same cage?

Definitely another thing that I can add into my Notes book!

Thanks Bill,

Chris

>>Chris,
>>
>>have you ever seen a python bite another one out of food response? They both usually go into constriction mode.
>>
>>Just an observation.
>>
>>Bill

Chris
Biting is exactly what they they do to defend themselves. It usually works. BUT if you grab one behind the head so he can't bite you his instinct is to wrap you up. Catching watersnakes as a kid in houston they woud do this and tx ratsnakes the same thing.
I've had a yellow anaconda, amethistine,rockpythons(several times) and the worst a 15 ft retic I had raised from the egg. I bred her parents they were tame. She was 5 years old and she was tame. I was going to do a show I had been driving about 16 hours it was late and I was beat. Somehow she had gotten out of her transport cage. Crawling around the van she is so slick and powerful I can't get a grip on her. She crawls by I grab her hard about 3 feet behind the head. Spins around and latches on to my forearm. Bleeding like the proverbial stuck pig now she is harder to catch because she is so slick with my blood. So I do the unthinkable. Grab a tame captive snake by the head. This really pisses them off. Immediately she starts to wrap around me. As you stated in an earlier post you don't have to experience something to learn about it.
All I could think of was Ernie Lanier getting wrapped up by that big burm and him saying keep them below your waist. So I did. I was tied up, I could'nt move. My legs were completely bound together. I let go of her head she did'nt try to bite she was after all tame. If I had continued to hold her head theres no doubt in my mind she would have continued to constrict me.
Back to the gator, when he bit that snake she immediately wrapped him up, she had no choice.
Like Bill I think these PSI tests are usually run on adult animals I woud be curious what a 6 footers PSI would run. Either way that bite I don't believe would have been life threatening.
The gator grabbed the snake lets say 3 feet from its head. That leaves approximately 10 feet to coil around the gator. And what a place to start, He has you in his mouth you wrap his head and in a short distance your around his neck. And for good measure maybe tie up those front legs also.
I think the snake was in defense mode the whole time he was'nt going to let go and take a chance on getting bit.
I think he suffocated him. Someone smarter than me might explain how long it would take to kill a croc from acidosis.
I know this is a huge problem with big crocs expending to much energy for a sustained period of time. Their body builds up an excess of lactic acid and they can't
disapate it quickly enough.(No tums in the everglades) I just don't know how long that takes.
Regardless once the gator is dead the snake,being a pragmatic thinks what the heck hes a good shape and chokes him down.
Danny Conner

One thing that I had forgotten. I watched a show on large constrictors...not sure which one however. But they were calculating the pressure that a large snake can put within it's coils. I believe that they were testing with an 8' Albino Burmese. The Burm was perfectly content while being held, and the individual who was donating his arm for this test had simply looped the burm around his arm. The burm didn't constrict until the man holding him and applied pressure behind the burms head and then the snake started to constrict. The tighter the snake was held the tighter the snake constricted.

I certainly had forgotten about that part. Thanks for the info!

Chris

>>Chris
>>Biting is exactly what they they do to defend themselves. It usually works. BUT if you grab one behind the head so he can't bite you his instinct is to wrap you up. Catching watersnakes as a kid in houston they woud do this and tx ratsnakes the same thing.
>>I've had a yellow anaconda, amethistine,rockpythons(several times) and the worst a 15 ft retic I had raised from the egg. I bred her parents they were tame. She was 5 years old and she was tame. I was going to do a show I had been driving about 16 hours it was late and I was beat. Somehow she had gotten out of her transport cage. Crawling around the van she is so slick and powerful I can't get a grip on her. She crawls by I grab her hard about 3 feet behind the head. Spins around and latches on to my forearm. Bleeding like the proverbial stuck pig now she is harder to catch because she is so slick with my blood. So I do the unthinkable. Grab a tame captive snake by the head. This really pisses them off. Immediately she starts to wrap around me. As you stated in an earlier post you don't have to experience something to learn about it.
>>All I could think of was Ernie Lanier getting wrapped up by that big burm and him saying keep them below your waist. So I did. I was tied up, I could'nt move. My legs were completely bound together. I let go of her head she did'nt try to bite she was after all tame. If I had continued to hold her head theres no doubt in my mind she would have continued to constrict me.
>>Back to the gator, when he bit that snake she immediately wrapped him up, she had no choice.
>>Like Bill I think these PSI tests are usually run on adult animals I woud be curious what a 6 footers PSI would run. Either way that bite I don't believe would have been life threatening.
>>The gator grabbed the snake lets say 3 feet from its head. That leaves approximately 10 feet to coil around the gator. And what a place to start, He has you in his mouth you wrap his head and in a short distance your around his neck. And for good measure maybe tie up those front legs also.
>>I think the snake was in defense mode the whole time he was'nt going to let go and take a chance on getting bit.
>>I think he suffocated him. Someone smarter than me might explain how long it would take to kill a croc from acidosis.
>>I know this is a huge problem with big crocs expending to much energy for a sustained period of time. Their body builds up an excess of lactic acid and they can't
>>disapate it quickly enough.(No tums in the everglades) I just don't know how long that takes.
>>Regardless once the gator is dead the snake,being a pragmatic thinks what the heck hes a good shape and chokes him down.
>>Danny Conner

Hi Danny,

Interesting theory about how a large snake might be percieved during threat assessment by crocodilians around the world. Controlled studies of this would be very interesting! One thing that would be curious would be how the instinctive part of the brain would develop a fear of for some species and not others. Your theory would be that it wasn't a size thing as much as shape(?).

As an aside, and regarding an alligators response to other animals:

One year while on display at the Renaissance Festival (we have a pond about 12' long x 7' wide (or so) and grassy basking areas), we put a 6-1/2 foot asian water monitor in the pond to cool off as it was a brutally hot August day. The gator (at that time about five feet in length) was basking about 15 to 20 feet away. As soon as that monitor hit the water (it was leashed), Smiley aggressively got up and starting moving to the water toward the monitor. We pulled the monitor out right away. She did the same thing another day when we put a 10' albino burm in the water to cool down. Other gators, caimans or turtles in the water were fine, but these alien intruders were NOT acceptable and she was fully intent on defending her territory.

Other interesting social interactions out in the pond occur when one of the smaller gators - we always seem to have a number of them around as rescues - either gets uppity with Smiley, or gets annoying by constantly trying to swim under her for protection. On multiple occasions I seen her reach around and grab one of these gators (usually two to three foot range) midway across the body, lift them out of the water, and give them a squeeze in her jaws. She puts them back in the water and lets them go. They quit whatever behavior they were doing that annoyed the "boss" of the pond. She could have very easily killed them on the spot!

Not that this concludes anything, just interesting observations.

Bill

"The Miami Herald reported that scientists can't figure out how the snake got the critter down. The snake's head is also missing. "

Sometimes the simplest answer is the best:

Assuming the measurements are correct. 13 ft and 6 ft. A six foot wild alligator...lets say 70 pounds. Would in fact be considered a food item to a 13 foot Burmese Python. I don't believe that a 13 foot python would be considered a food item to a 6 foot alligator...(thats just opinion though)

Snake grabs and constricts said gator, eats him, is discovered basking in the sun attempting to digest said meal by the local redneck. Killed and thrown in the water after having head chopped off. Both animals looked to be in a state of decomposition. During which process the snake split...

As per the above discussion, a defensive coil from a python is truly a terrifyingly strong grip. However, I find it immensly hard to believe that in a defensive (meaning the python trying to get away) situation that it would be able to cause the death of a cold blooded large reptile who is prepared to drown it's intended meal.
I don't believe a case of misidentifed prey item on either animal.

It likely is what it appeared to be, python kills and eats gator, somehow loses it's head after the process.

I also don't believe PSI is an accurate means of judging the power of an alligators bite.
12 foot gator, 16 square inches per jaw line, times 4 at 1800 PSI = 115,200 pounds of bite force.

Problem is, we don't know if the alligator is biting as hard as it possibly can which basically throws any study off.

I do know personally of a 12 foot alligator, a 5 gallon metal bucket packed as forcefully as humanly possible with chicken. Gator charges unexpectedly, the can is stuffed into said mouth and can is flattened to approx 3 inches (no this did not happen to me)

So I think the answer to how hard a gator can bite? "Really hard"

Just my take on things.
Best regards all.
-----
It's what you learn AFTER you know it all that counts!

Terry Phillip
Curator of Reptiles
Black Hills Reptile Gardens
Rapid City, SD.

www.reptilegardens.com

Terry,
You had to bring rednecks into the whole mess didn't you? I pretty much had the same thoughts as you about this but instead of the Florida redneck I pictured another alligator (or another predator) coming across a large, stuffed Burmese that is incapable of making any kind of retreat.

As for the bite force, the numbers everyone is throwing around should be followed by force not psi. A very big difference. And yes there has been a good deal of measurements done on a range of sizes all the way from under 1 foot to over 13 feet. This should be published soon.

Terry
Sorry we missed you this summer. You were in Sturgis entertaining the unwashed masses.
I guess I would look at this just the oppisite. If I'm fighting for my life(defensive) I have to think I'm considerably tougher than just trying to kick someones butt(offensive).
The whole back to the corner cliche. I have to think an animal any animal would be the same way.
Obviously I have no proof but once after getting bit 3 times(slow learner) I pulled an 8 ft yellow anaconda out he immediately wrapped up my arm. He was trying to kill my arm. Experimenting I left him on for probably 20 minutes in which time my arm was quite painful and deeply discolored.Noway he ever worked that hard to kill a large rat.
As far as size very likely the gator saw only a portion of the snake.
I think he smelled the snake and in the U.S. snake is always on the menu. He did'nt have to kill a 13 ft snake just 4-5 ft watersnake.
I took an antropology course in school. There was a native tribe in Alaska very remote no contact with the modern world. No books no tv nothing. They administered an hallucinegenic drug and then asked them to draw what they "dreamed" about. Almost 100% drew pics of big snakes. Pics of animals they did'nt even know existed. There was'nt a word in their vocabulary for snake.
Some primitive part of their brain was opened by the drug. Back when we were just another primate living in the trees.
Instinct, how else can you describe the actions of captive bred wild animals?
Interesting
Now for the important question.
How are the Johnsons?
Danny Conner

There are many ways to look at the incident, however give some thought to the difference between a large rat, an arm and a 6 foot alligator coming in and prepared to attack a prey item. There really is a big difference...

The johnstoni are doing great and I can attest that they too, do, bite.....hard.

"You had to bring rednecks into the whole mess didn't you? I pretty much had the same thoughts as you about this but instead of the Florida redneck I pictured another alligator (or another predator) coming across a large, stuffed Burmese that is incapable of making any kind of retreat. "

What more efficient predator acting on sheer stupidity alone can match that of a Florida Redneck? it was obvious to me who whacked it's head off!....
Besides our rednecks up here in S. Dakota usually are not able to find the shovel to accomplish the heroic deed with!

Hope alls well David, hows your lil' porosus doing haha Kidding, how are the babies he sired doing"

Best Regards,
-----
It's what you learn AFTER you know it all that counts!

Terry Phillip
Curator of Reptiles
Black Hills Reptile Gardens
Rapid City, SD.

www.reptilegardens.com

Terry,

What's happening out at the gardens during the off season these days? Don always extended an invitation but I never made it. As it turns out, I may be coming out to that area in the early January time frame and am wondering if anyone will be there.

Bill

Bill,
Generally, I'm always there. We have extended our open season thru the end of December since Don left. I always have an open invitation to people interested in this field to come visit, whether we are open or not. Just contact me and schedule a day or two when you know you will be in the area.
Regards,
-----
It's what you learn AFTER you know it all that counts!

Terry Phillip
Curator of Reptiles
Black Hills Reptile Gardens
Rapid City, SD.

www.reptilegardens.com

Bill
I do think it's a shape thing, along with a smell thing.
Alligators and snakes I'm afraid are a pretty poor judges of size estimates.
How different crocs react to snakes is really interesting.
If this had only happened once I would'nt make much of these observations. But I'm embarrassed to say it has happened enough for me to conclude there is scientific basis here. My wife complains about the cages and things getting loose, I tell her you still have to latch the door.
Smiley is definitely territorial, clearly master of his own domain. It has been my experience that an animal that is either kept by itself or is the sole animal in captivity that they are a little harder to convince that they are not top dog.
Our big gator at Snake Farm was a wonderful "top Dog". Before him lots of fighting and "squabbling". Once we got him he was so much bigger and badder than everyone else there was immediate peace. Usually just lifting his head out of the water was enough but occassionally he would have to smack the water with his head or tail. When he did that evryone would run for cover and all fighting would cease.
When I first got my 4 little nile hatchlings I kept them all together in a 3x3 aquarium. I fed them crickets and then small thawed mice. One day I threw a retired breeder mouse in the water knowing it was way to large for them to eat. As if choreographed they all grabbed a leg and started spinning. Ripped it to pieces and swallowed. At that time I had raised up; siamese, morelets, americans and several caimen and gators. No other group had ever acted this way. The rest were all the same. Grab and run. Even as in this case when the prey item was clearly to big. Grab and run and keep it from everyone else. Through millions of years of working in conjunction with other crocs these tiny hatchling niles knew instinctively how to handle a large prey item.
Keeping captive animals is never going to be the same as studying wild populations but I do think they reveal shared characteristics.
Danny Conner

Bill
I do think it's a shape thing, along with a smell thing.
Alligators and snakes I'm afraid are a pretty poor judges of size estimates.
How different crocs react to snakes is really interesting.
If this had only happened once I would'nt make much of these observations. But I'm embarrassed to say it has happened enough for me to conclude there is scientific basis here. My wife complains about the cages and things getting loose, I tell her you still have to latch the door.
Smiley is definitely territorial, clearly master of his own domain. It has been my experience that an animal that is either kept by itself or is the sole animal in captivity that they are a little harder to convince that they are not top dog.
Our big gator at Snake Farm was a wonderful "top Dog". Before him lots of fighting and "squabbling". Once we got him he was so much bigger and badder than everyone else there was immediate peace. Usually just lifting his head out of the water was enough but occassionally he would have to smack the water with his head or tail. When he did that evryone would run for cover and all fighting would cease.
When I first got my 4 little nile hatchlings I kept them all together in a 3x3 aquarium. I fed them crickets and then small thawed mice. One day I threw a retired breeder mouse in the water knowing it was way to large for them to eat. As if choreographed they all grabbed a leg and started spinning. Ripped it to pieces and swallowed. At that time I had raised up; siamese, morelets, americans and several caimen and gators. No other group had ever acted this way. The rest were all the same. Grab and run. Even as in this case when the prey item was clearly to big. Grab and run and keep it from everyone else. Through millions of years of working in conjunction with other crocs these tiny hatchling niles knew instinctively how to handle a large prey item.
Keeping captive animals is never going to be the same as studying wild populations but I do think they reveal shared characteristics.
Danny Conner

Well,

I think most of you know I'm not an expert, but it would seem to me (the "layman" that if the croc had of actually attacked the snake, that it would have split it in half (or third, wherever he happened to bite it)
I'm just picturing a 6 foot alligator biting my calf... and I don't think the burm has a bone as thick as my shin that the gator needs to get through.

Mr. F

If he bit the snake right behind the head. Maybe down a foot or so he could do a lot of damage. Any further than that and the snake would have "filled" his mouth.
For a comparison cram as much of your forearm in your mouth and bite down. Now try your finger.
Obviously a 6 ft gator can open his mouth wider than you but, unless you're Popeye, a 13 foot burm is substantially larger than your forearm.
To much snake too little a mouth.
Danny Conner

well,

I'm definitely no burm expert, I just thought those hundreds of pounds of pressure would drive its teeth through flesh like butter... but I"ll take your word for it.

I still think though that the snake at the alligator, alligator got stuck, indigestion, snake dies, rips open, some other animal ate the head of a dead snake.

Mr. F