Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I found a small snake today, and I don't know what it is. I live in Dade City, Florida in a wooded area with lots of pine trees. the snake has a glossy black head, and a light grey body. when I reached down to move him he rolled over onto his back and played dead. I know that hog nose snakes will sometimes do this, but this is no hog nose. I would appreciate all the help you can give me. Thank you....

I can't imagine another snake in FL that would roll over and play dead if you just reached for it other than an Eastern Hognose. Racers and coachwhips will occasionally play dead, but usually only after being severely stressed and they tend to just go limp rather than turning over.

Hognose can be black or sooty gray all over as well. Look at some hognose pics online

Here's a black hognose (from SC)

and here's a sooty gray one (with a slight pattern) from central TX

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Chris Harrison
Central Texas

Can you tell us anything about the snake's girth? The description seems to fit the crowned snake, except that in your area, that would be a bit of a range extension. I've never heard of that behavior being exhibited by Tantilla, but then they are not all that widely studied. I have a theory that playing dead can be a result of eating toads, but I'm not sure that Taantilla includes any of the bufonids in their diet.

~~Greg~~

...run your theory by me! I'd love to her it. Sounds interesting.
Although I don't think it was a tantilla in question here either, there are crowned snakes in his area.

:Mark
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Surrender Dorothy!

www.crimsonking.funtigo.com

another from closer to Dade City.

and a simus playing dead...

:Mark
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Surrender Dorothy!

www.crimsonking.funtigo.com

The vast majority of snakes that sham death feed on toads, be it North American Heterodon or African Naja or Hemachatus.
I think that bufo-toxin may cause the shammed death when the snake undergoes stress. I just cannot give snakes enough credit for the i.q. to pretend to be dead all by themselves.

~~Greg~~

Greg,

Remember Natrix natrix also feigns death. I don't know to what degree it eats bufonids though?

Did you follow the relatively recent thread about this on the hognose forum that Curtis Eckermann started? The toad issue didn't come up, but several aspects of physiology leading to this did. Worth a gaze if you are interested in such things.
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Chris Harrison
San Antonio, Texas

N. natrix, just like Nerodia, which used to be Natrix, include fish & amphibians in their diet. Highly likely that they feed on bufonids when available.
Thanks for the heads up, Chris. I think I'll go lurk on the Heterodon forum for a while.
~~Greg~~

what about the CB hognosed snakes that have not eaten toads they sill play dead

jake

Jock: If the mother was eating toads, the idea still works. If a snake that is several months old & has never eaten a toad still feigns death, then the theory falls apart.

~~Greg~~

That's an interesting observation. There must be others as well, huh?
Thanks.
:Mark
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Surrender Dorothy!

www.crimsonking.funtigo.com

With the present state of odd herps in Florida....maybe it's a Rinkhals
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1.1 Blackheaded pythons
1.1 Woma (Juvie female)
2.1 Aussie Olives
1.1 Timors
1.0 Angolan Juvie
1.1 Savu
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1.1 IJ Carpets
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1.2 Macklotts
1.1 Papuan Olives
1.0 Jungle Carpet
2.2 Scrubs (on breeding loan)
0.1 Jungle/Diamond cross
0.1 child, CB
0.1 wife, WC

Here's some info which you might apply to your theory Greg.

A few years back, at a Sawgrass Show, Mike Brennan and I rescuded a very beat up looking Hognose from S.Carolina(?)

A few weeks later she laid a clutch which hatched several netonates. None of these ever ate a toad, but instead were fed on NBP and eventually (those we kept track of)ate rats. The two in my care regularly showed "death feigning", as well as some of Mikes.

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

>>I just cannot give snakes enough credit for the i.q. to pretend to be dead all by themselves.

Agreed, but I would counter that a snake (or a person for that matter) is not smart enough to figure out on it's own that it needs to open it's mouth and swallow food or hide under a log. These are gentically programmed behaviors which do not require conscious thought or intelligenge in any form and I see no reason to believe that playing dead is any different.

Of course even if it is genetic, I guess it could still be an entirely physical reaction to stress rather than a "behavioral" one. Either would be just as effective.

I couldn't disagree more. I have seen too many instances of problem sloving to think all snakes are that dumb.

Death feigning has also been observed in some cobra species. Seems to be a defintite link between hooding and FD.

I have also seen they are capable (with some species) of programmed behavior. An Example:

I have a Japanese Green Snake that has learned when it is feeding time. She eats worms so it is necessary for me to pour some water in her feeding area (by the way, this species needs damp to wet conditions). No matter where I pour the water, she imediatly goes to the spot where I drop the worms in. She will even take direction (I tap on the tank to get her attention to where the worms are crawling if she misses one).

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

>>I couldn't disagree more. I have seen too many instances of problem sloving to think all snakes are that dumb.

Could you give me some examples, I would be interested in hearing about any singificant problem solving that couldn't be explained as a simple extension of a learned behavior. I too think that people don't give snakes enough credit, but I can't think anything I've seen that would really call problem solving.

>>Death feigning has also been observed in some cobra species. Seems to be a defintite link between hooding and FD.

Yes, it's well known in certain cobra species, but you'll notice that it is alost universal in most of the species where it occurs and doesn't ever happen in most others. If I saw an eastern diamondback suddenly start playing dead then maybe I might think he had learned it.

>>I have also seen they are capable (with some species) of programmed behavior. An Example:

I didn't mean to imply that they couldn't learn. A cockroach can learn and it doesn't evem have a centralized brain if I remember right.

When I said a snake couldn't figure out how to eat, that didn't mean that they are stupid. I was saying that swallowing a mouse is actually an incredibly complex behavior that no animal could possibly reason it's way through and yet a hatchling snake can do it automatically. My point was that just because feigning death seems complicated for a snake does not mean that it is not automatic.

Feigning death may sound simple to us, but it actually requires a lot of very abstract thought that I do think is beyond any animal with the exception of some primates.

"That animal wants to eat me. I could flee but I might not be fast enough. I could threaten him, but he might know it's a bluff. Even though I think he wants to catch, kill and eat me, if I roll over and don't move, he will think I am dead and for some reason decide that because I died on my own I am not edible even though he saw me alive 2 seconds ago."

You think a snake could think that far ahead about the intentions and reactions of another animal? If a snake was that smart then certainly no animal would be dumb enough to fall for the gag, right?

I wouldn't absolutely rule out that they could learn a behavior like that by observation. "That other snake rolled over and the cat left him alone" is MUCH simpler, but I seriously doubt they have the capacity to work it out on their own.

Ok...A classic which was caught on film. A California Mountain King crawls in plain sight accross a forrest floor. This draws the attention of a pair of nesting birds which attack it. The snake meantime is paying attention to where they came from. He tracks them back to the tree (confirming by the droppings that there are baby birds up there). The snake climbs the tree and eats the chicks.

Strikes me as pretty damn smart.

Ever watch a wild racer out manuver and run down prey? Fast thinking to have the reflexes to out run a fast prey.

Yellow ratsnakes are known to kill and eat adult rats in a nest thus leaving the pups for casual dinning later.

Again I don't see the big deal about hooding. It is just an extreme evolution of jaw spreading which is very common in snakes.

Doesn't take a genius.

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."