Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hibernation vs. no hibernation.

Lots of material was brought up. From they do hibernate, to, no they don't. To they are capable of moving and doing things at very low temps. To they are torpid at cold temps. To ice and snow, to no ice and snow, to the snow insulates, to dead trees and all such matters. They congregate or hibernate singly, there may be babies in these groups, to mostly there are no babies in these groups.

You know, I agree with all that. Yes, every single bit of that.

But as I mentioned at the bottom of that thread. With all the variation they do, and all the variation in weather, they somehow do these things at the very same time. Like breeding(colubrids) From late march to late april(or so) To egg laying, from late april to late May(normally) To the emergence of offspring(hatching) from july to sept. How strange is that. Considering they are so different!

Yes there are exceptions like subocs laying in sept. But all in all, they seem to do these basic life events on the very same schedule. Even snakes from Fla.(warm all the dang time) to Ariz(cold in winter, hell in summer) To across the south and across the north. My goodness, how does that happen??????????

Again as I mentioned, If what they do in summer is the same. Wouldn't you think what they are doing is winter is the same too. It only makes sense. Doesn't it?

For sure, some may be doing these things, deep in safe areas as the surface is hostile. Some may be doing this near or on the surface. Some may be doing this in trees or rocks or basements, but they are still doing it. All across the U.S.

The more we study snakes, the more we see lots of species congregating in winter. They congregate in Fla, in Calif, in Ariz, in Neuva York, in Minn. Heck, snakes congregate in Carins and Darwin, and those are near the equator. They congregate in indo, on the equator. They congregate on the high plateaus of Mex. to the low coastal areas. So why do they congregate if its not to protect themselves from freezing?

So while you fellas really like your terms of hibernation and yours truly have to be doing that because thats what you want. But what are they really doing, remember, they are doing it in hot equatorial areas, just like they are doing it under the snow. hmmmmmm

For TC, my wife just saw a fresh DOR diamondback next to our mailbox and a DOR longnose down the street. If you would have asked, I would have explained, large adults(breeders) are no longer moving around(normally), its mainly subadults and juvi's that move on the surface in winter. But abnormal happens, it happens because it can happen. The adults here are now gathering in pairs and small groups to spend the winter together. While the others are doing what they need to do. FR

I was just going to look at the last threads and catch the last of the debate.
I was a little surprised during the pastweek. I was down south 3 days when the daytime highs were in the mid to upper 80s. (Yes, air temp. ) I expected to do a little better. I did see some Patches and Blackneck Garters one day but I zeroed on 2 of the days. Of course, I have also done that during the height of spring or summer. One day was a morning go and the other two were afternoon runs. Sometimes its just about timing. I did enjoy watching a pair of Golden Eagles by the Big Hill and had a nice game of Border Patrol tag so it was far from lost time. Any time in the back country is well spent.
Until later

>> For TC, my wife just saw a fresh DOR diamondback next to our mailbox and a DOR longnose down the street. If you would have asked, I would have explained, large adults(breeders) are no longer moving around(normally), its mainly subadults and juvi's that move on the surface in winter. But abnormal happens, it happens because it can happen. The adults here are now gathering in pairs and small groups to spend the winter together. While the others are doing what they need to do. FR

FR, that's interesting since it was cool mid-70's today in Green Valley and a low of around 43*F. Of course it might be warmer in Tucson. Were they adults or other?

It makes sense that adults go down first, because it's the babies and juves that feed longer in our captives too. When I lived in CA I found young of the species all winter under surface objects, but they weren't very active.

Our snakes in n. MI have all gone under by early Oct. as I mentioned before. I'm sure there's hanky, panky going on down in the 55*F zone, but I have a question for ya. Why is it they always are breeding and getting knocked up at the same time every year in the spring? It's like clockwork because they lay their eggs at about the same few days each year and hatchings are at just about the same time. ASAMOF, almost all the babies born live and the babies from eggs are on the surface at about the same time every summer, around the second week of August. Now that I think about it, that's about the time I'm seeing babies in AZ, haha.

Thanks for the post...TC

I gotta wait six more months to see these guys again...



That last snake is a Butler's garter snake from a Presque Isle Co. site that is the county north of their northernmost record. A student of mine found the site and gave us the range extension. It's on Lake Huron.

The box turtle is a male we found with a female in oak openings in s.w. MI in early June.

The first garter is a gravid Eastern I found on my property in a hole under a flat, limestone rock.

Just thought I'd show a few of MI's herps since you've shown some of yours

TC

That is an awesome box turtle.

If you look at all the animals as a whole, mammals, birds, fish, amphibians, and reptiles, they ALL seem to reproduce at the same time. Why is this you ask??

1. By animals all hatching/birthing at the same time, it gives them a greater chance of survival. The sheer volume of baby animals in the spring helps ensure their survival.

2. Another way to give an animal a higher survival rate is to be born/hatched in the spring. This way they have all summer to grow and have plenty of food available. What do baby predators eat?? Other baby food items! This is one way Nature has balanced the survival of her animals. All born/hatched at the same time. Granted, mice breed year round, but probably heaviest in the spring/summer months. Baby bass eat other baby fish, baby water snakes eat baby fish, tadpoles and baby frogs. Just one big circle of life.

Things that make you go hmmmmm.....
Brian
-----

RATS
1.0 Corn snake "Warpath"(KY locale)
1.0 Black rat snake "Havok" (KY locale)
1.1 Black rat snakes "Reaper and Mystique" (MO locale)
1.0 Albino Black rat snake "Malakai" (Dwight Good stock)
1.0 Everglades rat snake "Deadpool" (Dwight Good stock)
0.1 Greenish rat snake "Rogue" (Dwight Good stock)
1.0 Great plains rat snake "Reign Fire" (TX locale)
1.0 Grey rat snake "Punisher" (White oak phase)(Dwight Good stock)

Good luck and Happy Herping
Brian

Plant eaters generaly bear offspring in the spring which coresponds to abundant and lush plant growth.

With some snakes it would seem that the availability of small/appropriate sized prey items for hatchlings to consume is a limiting factor. I am guessing here, which should put the snakes hatching just prior to an expected upswing in prey availability (desert regions maybe a regular lizard hatching). I say prior because the hatchlings need to shed and possibly use some stored energy before eating.

However, I feel that many hatchlings over-winter before eating a first meal sometime the following spring.

-----
Bob Bull
1.3 L.g.getula MD Locality
2.1 L.g.g GA locality
2.3 L.g.g albino
1.4 L.g.g het albino
1.2 L.g.g P-het albino
1.0 L.g.floridana peanutbutter
0.2 L.g.f. het peanutbutter
1.0 L.g.f. N.E. axanthic
1.0 L.g.nigrita
1.1 L.t.hondurensis het hypo-melanistic
0.1 L.t.hondurensis hypo-melanistic

With many snakes hatching out anywhere from mid-late aug through early-mid sep, they still have plenty of time to get a few meals in them and help them overwinter. But you bring up a valid point, I wonder how many hatchlings do not get a meal before they go down for the winter?? And of those that do not, what percentage does not survive the winter?? Would be interesting to see some data on that!!

This thread sure has made me think about some things I have not in the past!! Always room to learn, thats for sure!
Brian
-----

RATS
1.0 Corn snake "Warpath"(KY locale)
1.0 Black rat snake "Havok" (KY locale)
1.1 Black rat snakes "Reaper and Mystique" (MO locale)
1.0 Albino Black rat snake "Malakai" (Dwight Good stock)
1.0 Everglades rat snake "Deadpool" (Dwight Good stock)
0.1 Greenish rat snake "Rogue" (Dwight Good stock)
1.0 Great plains rat snake "Reign Fire" (TX locale)
1.0 Grey rat snake "Punisher" (White oak phase)(Dwight Good stock)

Good luck and Happy Herping
Brian

Some animals, such as the white-tailed deer, drop their young in the spring. White-tails mate in the fall, carry the babies over-winter, and drop fawns in the early spring. Then they have all spring, summer, and fall before the next winter to grow and prepare for the next great survival test in their existence.

Snakes in N.A. usually mate in spring, after the long or short winter. They then have a gestation period and usually an incubation period. Many of our snakes are born or hatch bt. July and Sept, as FR said. In MI, almost all are born or hatch in the month of August.

Some snakes immediately start breeding again in the fall, arguably most of them. Some snakes even produce clutches, or a second clutch in the fall before winter. I think that happens mostly in the tropics, however. Most of the species in the U.S. probably wait until the following spring to mate and only produce one clutch a year. A few species can carry viable sperm and time the fertilization of their clutches to the best time of the year to do that, which is normally in the spring when they start foraging. This is my opinion anyway.

I believe we see the most babies bt. July and Sept, or around August because that's how most of their reproductive systems work. Snakes need a certain amt. of time to reproduce in a year, and if they cycle in winter, fertilize in spring, they incubate in summer, and they have a couple months hopefully to grow a little before tackling their first winter. Some snakes have very little, or no time, before cold weather makes them become dormant for the winter or the babies stop feeding and start resting/waiting out the cold weather. That is in the north anyway.

As you all have pointed out, animals in general have adapted this way, and there tends to be lots of food for baby snakes. We might want to ask ourselves, however, why snakes reproductive systems have evolved this way, and is it just because of food availability, or is it to take advantage of the climatic conditions? Why wouldn't some snakes be born in winter (like black bears) or as soon as foraging becomes possible?

Interesting stuff...I guess I'm stuck on this for awhile..TC.

I believe species in the northernmost parts of their range are limited in their northern range extensions by their ability to reproduce. One of the few benefits of living so far north is that you get to look at limiting factors of survival. I don't believe they are limited by food availability, but by the ability to produce offspring and for those offspring to survive their first big winter. Much has been published about the tremendous winter die-off of baby snakes in the northern part of their range. In n. MI it can be easily more than half. I've seen winters I think the entire production for the year was lost. In other words, some springs there are no babies seen here. In good years there are hundreds on our property alone. Thanks for listening. Later...TC.

Around here on the central coast of California what I have seen is the first herps to hatch are Sceloperous lizards. About 2 to 4 weeks after I see the first Scelops out I start seeing baby Gophersnakes and Cal Kings on the road. About 2 to 4 weeks after the Gophersnakes and Kings another crop of Scelops start hatching.

Frank, I really don't like the term hibernation as applied in the classical sense when it comes to snakes. I do believe a prolonged period of very little activity occurs in many northern areas in the U.S. Anyhow, just a few observations on your comments.

< With all the variation they do, and all the variation in weather, they somehow do these things at the very same time. Like breeding(colubrids) From late march to late april(or so) To egg laying, from late april to late May(normally) To the emergence of offspring(hatching) from july to sept. How strange is that. Considering they are so different! >

I would not say their basic life functions are different. Where ever found snakes still breed, eat, drink, etc.. You must remember when talking about the continental U.S. there is indeed extremes to be found in one region to another when the calandar year is viewed in its entirety. However, Spring does still come to all points north, south, east and west! The fact that most N.A. colubrids breed in the spring should come as no surprise. Also I don't agree with your time frame and would like to point out there is a great deal of difference in local conditions throughout the spring months. Some example. Its not uncommon to find heavily gravid female floridana south of Lake Okeechobee in mid March. Remember. Mid March is late winter. You mention that egg laying takes place everywhere generally from late April to late May. Not true. I can say with some authority snakes in Ky (kings, corns, milks, etc) very rarely lay before the second week of June. Rat snakes usually are not laying until late June or into July. Now this is in Ky which is neither deep south nor far north. It does make me wonder when the snakes from the northern states and New England are laying.

< Again as I mentioned, If what they do in summer is the same. Wouldn't you think what they are doing is winter is the same too. It only makes sense. Doesn't it? >

No, not really. The reason I say this is summers in the north and summers in the south are completely different. I would expect summers in the north to be times of plenty when snakes are foraging under optimum conditions and replenishing their reserves. I have been to the deep south in summer and I would describe it as anything but lush and vibrant. More hot, dry and generally inhospitable. I would suspect many snakes are not having as many feeding opportunities as they would like. It would not surprise me to see greater activity early in the year in the winter months. I see no reason for this in the north. To summarize, yes, the snakes are still doing the same things regardless of where they live. To think they have to do it in the same way at the same time would make no sense when you consider not just the spring, but the extremes of conditions found throughout the year in the respective regions. Thanks, Phil

Do me a favor Phil, copy my post and re-read it in ten years, thanks. FR

Sorry Frank, but I find your arguments less than convincing. You have demonstrated not one shed of evidence of why snakes in the northern U.S. would need to be active in the cold winter months. Like I have mentioned many times in the past everything in nature happens for a reason when its applied to behavior. In other words, there must be a need. To this point you have stated this is not an Arizona phenomena but a wide ranging pattern of behavior, yet you have failed to demonstrate either a need or an example. Thanks for the conversation though, Phil

Hey Phil, what's up? Don't forget about them being nocturnal during the extreme summers! They still do it, just at night!
Think grayband, subocularis, nightsnakes, and gophers/bulls. Found a dor calligaster subadult yesterday, but all the specks are hiding below. Not too hot, just what they are doing now. I will find many kings in Jan. and Feb. next year, almost all this years hatchlings and the speck adult must have been sick and on its own to be found under a.c. in Jan. That makes 3 callis, 4 specks, 0 graybands (actually 4 found by Zee), and 5 splendies this year so far and winter isn't really here yet! We will have the nations high temps tomorrow in south Texas, around 87. I don't see as much as I thought I would, but have honed in on some likely looking upturned trees with exposed roots at waters edge that looks like a great spot for the specks. Crawdad holes and scattered a.c. should produce some cool stuff on warm days this winter. Hope we can keep this thing going during yall's cold spell! I'm hoping to bring the calligaster record back to Texas soon! LOL!
Todd Hughes

Also we mustn't forget we're dealing with different species sometimes too. The northern range for getula dies in s. Ohio and the black ratsnake in s. Michigan. Why don't they come up into my area. Something is restricting the range of those species and it has to do with how they live and have adapted. What about the Eastern fox snake. They are restricted to the areas around the southern Great Lakes, why? Is it because they are habitat specialists? Night snakes and lyre snakes and some kingsnakes, etc, are often active at night because they have adapted to the harsh conditions of summer in the Southwest. As such their ranges are restricted to some degree. But as FR is saying, and let's not lose sight of the point, all snakes are doing the same thing over winter, and that's beside the point of all this variation. They are congragating and getting ready for the next season. Some have a very long time to rest and congregate and some have a very short time, and inbetween.

When we look at variability, there's really some outstanding examples of these differences. The only kingsnake in my area is the Eastern milksnake, which does very well on my property. But they have some restrictions because of our harsh climate in winter. I usually don't see the first surface activity until late May. I believe the eggs are dropped sometime in late June and hatchlings can be seen in early August to mid-September. Hatchlings are rarely seen, however, until the following spring, as I think they remain below ground for the most part. If we have a really bad winter we might not see any hatchlings, or any adults either the following year. Sometimes the population gets decimated. But the pop survives and they rebound, because there's plenty of food and great habitat here.

Another example is the Coastal mtn. kingsnake in California. I had a pair of these for a few years that I raised from hatchlings. The really interesting thing about these guys is that I had a hard time getting them to eat in the summer when temps in my herp room easily were hitting 80* most days, then all of a sudden they took off when temps dropped to the low 70's and it got a lot drier in here. They were very active all winter. Could it be that this species does better in winter than they do in summer in CA? But still, they breed nearly according to the same schedule as most of our other colubrids.

That brings me back to the question..why do our snakes have this yearly schedule that almost all stick to, and Frank's question, what are they doing during the winter?

Thanks again...TC

PS: Todd, you lucky duck, I expect to see some examples of different kingsnakes this winter, haha. I know you're in the perfect area for sightings

Great point Terry. I think that all of us agree that there is some activity during the winter. The debate seems to be to what extent this occurs throughout the continental U.S. I believe that this activity can include such activities as feeding, shedding and copulation in some areas (south) yet can be reduced to not much more than slight movement throughout the thermocline in other regions (north). I find it notable that probably hundreds if not thousands of telemetered snakes in the central and northern states have led researchers to no other conclusion than they are not doing much at all. Also I find it interesting that the same species is not necessarily doing the same thing in different parts of its range. For example its well known that timbers in the northeast communionally den in large groups where as recent studies have shown that this is not the case in Ky where rattlesnakes spend the winter alone. hmmmmmm! as they say lol! Beautiful triangulum btw Terry! Thanks for the post. Phil

Hi Todd! You bring up another aspect of this whole conversation with nocturnal activity. In our area we have snakes that are nocturnal and some that are not during the summer months. The most commonly seen snake here at night has got to be the copperhead though cottonmouths, rat snakes and most of the Natricines are often found prowling around after dark especially if there has been some rain. Other snakes are never seen at night and are essentially diurnal. Among these are the racer, the eastern hog and the black kingsnake. From what I understand in some areas of the country the kingsnake is regularly seen at night. I know Sean and Pierson have found them after dark in Florida and I have seen many field herping posts documenting herpers finding kingsnakes at night in the desert southwest. By contrast I have never seen one surface active at night in Ky with the exception of seeing one or two active at dusk after summer showers. I think this points once again that snakes are sometimes doing things at different times in different parts of the country.

Sounds like you guys cleaned up! Nice finds. Good luck in your search for the next record calligaster. I hope somebody finds a five footer! Phil

np

I guess my take on things has always been this. The further removed from the "plant" part of the food chain (which is dependent on seasonal change) the less dependence for a seasonal change is needed for that animal. So a carnivore would probably go on year round provided there was a significant food source available, regardless of the season. If your food supply numbers dwindle (possible seasonal change), then what better way to just go into "idle" mode and den up. Conserve the energy until it's needed. In the wild, snakes will know which medium is going to suit them best and take advantage of it whenever possible. This would include breeding. If your enviroment could provide the conditions, then this would take place all the time, Underground or on the surface. Who better, than the adult snake, is going to know when is the right time or not. Natures way is for an animal to replace itself within its lifetime. I feel they would breed at any given opportunity, regardless of season. Otherwise why would you have so many hybrids? Kings, corns, and such sometimes could care less, so long as they can replace themselves and pass on their genes.

Scott

Gosh Frank.... There sure have been a lot of snakes getting run over by YOUR house during this thread???????

or at least swerve around them. hahahahahahahahaha There still there. Virg is into walking every day now(see how long that lasts). So I get a daily report. Hey when we going out, your chariot awaits(I changed the oil). FR

I want to see that machine.

Forky

Hey Forky, I have seen Frank in shorts. Please don't refer to him as a machine!! He'll wear them again!!

DOH!!!!

Frank. Huachucas Wednesday???? Vine snakes Monday afternoon????

Seven fresh snakes trails yesterday in the creoste flats including young of the year sidewinders and adult crotes.

Frank, why do you think subocs lay in Sept? Could that be their second clutch? Thanks...

TC

I have no idea other then they figured out a way to make it work(to be of benefit) for them.

This whole exercise was very interesting and it points out some clear flaws. Many want answers so bad, they make them with to little of evidence. Really, the key is seeing what they the snakes do, not making rules about what they do, yes??????

What bothers HMK and I is we seem to find more questions then answers, in fact, the things we used to call answers were indeed only questions. We also have found out that these things we call populations do not seem to do one thing, but instead, do many different things, all at the same time. We found out, they do these different things in all seasons. It only makes sense, that that seasons breeders do not have the same behaviors and needs as none breeders, and that juvies have different needs and behaviors then adults. So it does confuse me when you say, snakes do this and that. You do understand, when you say snakes, it means all of them. Not just the few you saw doing whatever you saw them doing. Have you seen them do all things? FR

Thanks for the answer. I've been investigating snakes and many other things of the natural environment since I was a little boy and my father would bring stuff home for me. We both had a love of nature and wanted to know the "why" of everything. By the time I was twelve, the only source of info I had besides my father, and the little Golden Book of snakes, was the Detroit Zoo. Believe it or not, they didn't have very many answers back then either. Not many were studying milksnakes or E. massasaugas. There weren't very many books I could read on snakes in our little library. I learned to guess or predict the answers to get myself to the next level. I think a lot of us old timers do this.

In today's world the young kids are on the computers all the time. ASAMOF, I rarely see kids that are taking advantage of the environment and just going out and answering their own questions by looking. Mostly they research by going on the internet and asking the question and relying on someone else's knowledge. I think they think everything is known already and they just have to ask the right person or the right question.

FR, I think you're right. We do need to see for ourselves and go out and watch the snakes and see what they are doing. That's why I keep bringing up examples of what I've seen in the past, so we can add that to our mix of things we've seen. I think Phil does that also. He's a great guy in how he handles the animals he sees and he's given us lots of info to work with with his observations. I can't tell you how many cool discoveries he's made that I wish I had the opportunity to do. But the frustrating thing is that we can't make many observations when the snakes are down under for months at a time in winter. There are no windows for most of us, like you have. What you are doing is great, but I think the best I can do and maybe Phil too, is to find a hibernaculum and watch it. But I've done that before and mainly all you see is the snakes going in and the snakes coming out and that may be months apart.

You're right, that the different age groups in a population do different things, I'm definitely agreeing with that. It isn't easy for me to confirm what you're saying, but I do have some experience through the years that might help. In time I'll try to relay some of that experience, but for now I'll agree the young of the year, and probably subadults too, are willy nilly all over the place, whereas the adults are tending to hang out together. It depends on the location, I think. Sometimes they're all in the same location because it's just a great spot to spend the winter. But the babies tend to stay away from adults I think, whether intentionally or because they are just doing different things like you said. This all has a lot to do with the reproductive mode of the adults and the fact they don't need to eat or grow during this time, and the juveniles that do want to eat as long as possible in most cases (except maybe far north) and want to stay active as long as possible so they can grow as much as possible. This is a great concept to work with.

I'll try to be more specific when talking about a snake population and not make it sound like all the snakes are doing the same thing in that population. I know I haven’t seen all the things that snakes do. It’s very frustrating not being able to see into their world in winter.

Let me give, for example, an Eastern milksnake population I used to study near Lake Huron, that was in an industrial area near a town, and where the city used to dump a lot of stuff, like construction materials and dirt, gravel, etc. This site doesn’t exist anymore because it was bulldozed over to make way for an industrial park type thing. This is what it looked like, sort of, before the change….


This is what it looked like after being bulldozed…

Here’s a couple in situ pics of milksnakes at their hibernaculum…


These pics aren't that great because they were taken before I started using the computer and the digital camera.

The snakes were photoed "in situ" at the hibernaculum site. The pair was resting under a large limestone rock and the single adult was just emerging from a hole leading into the hibernaculum. It was the month of May. No juveniles were ever seen at the hibernaculum, but a few were found within 20 or 30 yards of the site at about the same time of year. Dozens of adults were seen at the hibernaculum for about a week, or so, in May, over a three yr. period. They would disperse after that to forage for the season and other activities.

I have to assume that the adults were congregating in the hibernaculum to rest, cycle, and mate in the spring. Unfortunately, the site no longer exists. I do have another site near Lake Huron and plan to investigate it this coming spring. We aren't able to see down into the hibernaculums to watch the snakes or take temps. We have to observe from a distance, and it's frustrating when you have to wait about six months before there's any surface activity.

Thanks for listening...TC

Lets skip the unimportant stuff and go right to the milksnake area.

You can find kingsnakes in a spot like that, from northern south america, up thru mexico, to the higher plateaus(mexicana) to ariz,(Brian hubbs book pic of pyro piles) to California, and Calkings, to Fla, where I found goini in a spot exactly like that pic and now all the way to lake huron. So why are your northern snakes different?????????????? And why do you say its a hiberniculum? If you found that in mexico, would you call it a hiberniculum?

I can explain why that spot has those snakes if you like, but I think you know, and I am sure Rich knows and maybe Phill too. Thanks FR

Dang, Frank, it's like being bt. a rock and a hard place. Now I know we're talking about the same thing, we just use a little different language. You don't have to explain what those snakes are doing, I know what they are doing, and now I know what you aren't coming right out with about them. I think I've finally got the whole picture. The big reason we have such a different view of the situation is because in AZ you watch them all year, and in MI I have to wait at least six months to see them again. It's not easy to change how you talk about it.

I know you understand why I use the terms hibernate and hibernaculum, but for the sake of other readers let's explain. Many herpers, writers (the literature), Phil and I, have used the term hibernation all our lives. It's what we call what the snakes are doing because they are overwintering and it's such a long period before we see them again. Hibernaculum simply means the place where they hibernate. Of course, those in the know realize that snakes overwinter wherever they want, not necessarily at a hibernaculum. What's happening at a hibernaculum (for lack of a better term at this time) is that a large group of adult snakes are congregating.

I know other stuff is happening underground with those adult snakes, but where I live it happens over such a long period of time, that one has to assume for most of that time the snakes are just resting and waiting for conditions to get better. If we want to talk AZ or Mexico, then we don't have to wait as long before we see them again. Also, they are closer to the surface presumably, since we can find them on the surface occasionally in winter, and there's also windows into their winter retreats sometimes. They are doing the same things, but they are doing them in a little different ways, and the conditions vary (as we've said previously).

I can see where the term hibernation is politically incorrect and the times are changing, but I think it might be awhile before the vast majority of herpers change their thinking and we come up with new terms that more accurately describe what's going on down below. I think talking about it, doing research with data, etc, will help get us there. Meanwhile, let's keep posting stuff that gives some picture of what we're seeing and thinking about. Thanks.

Here's a picture of surface rocks, limestone, near the north shore of Lake Michigan in the Upper Peninsula...

Another view of similar rocks....

The reason these rocks are important is because many snakes use them and overwinter under them. In areas where lots of rocks or piles of them are common, there's fewer trees, more sun exposure, and the rocks can warm up to some extent and are useful for certain snakes. Snakes sometimes congregate there because it's a good spot to do that. Here's one of many green snakes we've uncovered in these rocks....

I'm not saying this is a hibernaculum or anything else, just saying that it's a place where it's easier to find snakes. Unfortunately, we don't find any kingsnakes in the U.P., it's too far north for them, but there are a few other snakes besides green snakes in this area. We can find w. fox snakes, whereas they are more difficult to find in other areas...maybe not as populated.

It takes awhile to say it my way. Thanks for listening

TC

I believe once you move here, you will find that our kingsnakes at lower elevations are below the surface for a much longer period then there eastern and northern brothers. The reason is, we have more confining conditions. We have unsuitable cold, we have unsuitable heat, and the big kicker, we have lack of moisture. All these drive kingsnakes underground. Thanks for sharing. FR

Frank, thanks for your insights through these strands and the photos, etc, you put up. It sure has made me think and I'm happy to be able to look at snakes in general this new way.

I'm beginning to see what you mean about the kings from my trips even and thinking a lot about the climate/veg, etc. in AZ. It's amazing they are so well adapted that they can handle all these extremes, whether in AZ or any other of their regions. I know it isn't easy for them to be surviving in s. AZ and they spend most of their time underground. I'll be thinking about that a lot in the future (what they're doing down there). Good luck in your research.

Regards....TC