Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hey guys I don't post threads here at all and usually lurk but was just curious as to what you guys thought. I wanted to know who do YOU think should be keeping/handling/mantaining venoums herps (specifically snakes)? Should It be people with actuall degrees in herpetology or should it be the common herp sympithizer thats only had colubrids for a few years and thinks he/she can move up. Personally I think it's only people with degrees in herpetology that know how to handle the snake/bite wounds/escapes. But what do you think?

I'll reply with more info later, but I'll throw in a few thoughts real quick.

You'll be hard pressed to find anyone with a degree in herpetology specifically... most programs in the US are zoology/biology related with an emphasis or focus on herpetology at the most.

Just because someone has sat through X number of hours of coursework doesn't mean that they'll be fit to work with these animals. I'll tell you this, reading about the way a Bothrops acts, and having to deal with a Bothrops that is going crazy in your snake room are two totally different things, and no book can prepare you for hands on experience (although I will admit they are a good place to start to learn generalities)

I'm currently working on my M.S. in biology. Sure, school has taught me a lot, but I'll be the first to tell you that when it comes to what I have learned about handling/working with venomous snakes, dealing with snakebite, etc, I've learned more from people without biology specific degrees, or no degree at all. A piece of paper doesn't prepare you for working with venomous snakes. There are many people out there who may not have a degree etc, but I'd trust them with my life and would be willing to deal with any venomous reptile in the world along with them. There is a very small percentage of "degreed" biologists that I'd trust to even work with nonvenomous snakes of mine.

You bring up good points....BUT the fact is herpotologists and biologists will most likely be ready to handle any "storm" (I'll use that word for the number of things that can happen with venomous snakes) that comes, when you think about it. I'm not trying to offend anyones right to keep venomous herps (thats the last thing I'm talking about) but I'd trust someone more that knows what to do if these things happen. It's safe to say that every herpotologist and biologist that studies herps more than other creatures has snakes so which house would you be more likely to go over, Joe that just got a C.Ruber with little knowledge of them but thinks he can care for them since he has had colubrids in the past? Or Tom's house who has a degree in herps or is a biologist that knows a lot about snakes that has the same snake? The latter makes more sense. I just came here to see what you guys thought since I KNOW most of you are smart or you wouldn't be using latin names for every snake

I would stop by and pick up Tom on my way to Joe's. Then Tom and I could observe Joe's handling skills and husbandry. Then advise him of what he's doing well at and what could use improvement. Fact is, I'm 32 year old, just started college myself. I took Biology. I should have been paid to take it. I have taught my Biology instructor more then she has taught me.(As far as the Biology, handling and husbandry of Venomous snakes) She is very interested in Venomous snakes and learning about them, but in all her years of college, never handled them, took care of them, or did mush more then look at them in a jar of formaldehyde. I guess my point is, if someone is truly interested in keeping hot snakes, their gonna do their homework first. Degree or not. That's why I think there should be a permit system to weed out the macho heads. Our state doesn't have any permit system for exotics, only state native species. I would like to see a system here, so when the macho heads get bit, I don't become associated with them. That's my 2 cents. Billy

Good answer.
If you had a choice to be at two parties where you knew someone was going play a prank by dumping a N. koauthia on the floor at each. Would you go the Biology professors' party or colubrid keepers' party? (This is a philosophical question because obviously you would report this to the proper authorities in advance.
Jim

It's an interesting question, one that isn't easily answered. There are some university educated biologists who are buffoons and have no business handling a garter snake, much less anything venomous. Then there are people who haven't gone past 10th grade who are very competent venomous keepers.

I think the person who should be keeping venomous snakes is the man (or woman) who understands exactly what he is doing and the risks involved. He should take his hobby very seriously and be willing to go to the expense to provide the very best and safest care for his animals. He should handle the animals very carefully and not put others at risk while doing so. He should be responsible and well-informed, and very aware of what he is doing.

These are all things that can be taught in university, but they can also be learned on your own. And there are a lot of people who keep venomous snakes who have absolutely no business doing so. I have known several.

I live in Georgia, and we have a permit system in place for non-native venomous (native venomous snakes require no permit; this accomodates the rattlesnake roundup enthusiasts). While the permit itself is not very expensive, the insurance that goes with the permit is very costly -- about $300 per month. This helps weed out a number of bad venomous snake keepers from the start. I like the permit system myself, though it means that at least right now, I won't be getting anything non-native for a long time.

RP

Geee...What a can of worms this one could be but I stick my neck out anyway.

I don't feel any of the above mentioned educational requirements are valid. You don't need a degree in something for it to be of interest to you. Most of us (older guys) started because we had a passion for keeping snakes. Some of us moved onto Venomous as sort of a "Natural progression" our love of snakes. Spewing the scientific Latin names is just part of being "fluent" in the language of science of Zoology, no degree required. As with any "hobby" all you need is passion and the desire to learn.

Many things are required to safely keep Venomous snakes in a private setting. Yes, I also think many who currently keep venomous, SHOULD NOT. What I see go on at the “Venomous Shows” scares the hell out of me. Here's a few reasons/ requirements that come to mind but I'm sure if I spend time on this I could come up with a few more.

1) No ego or excess testerone about what you’re doing. Let me explain: You have to want to keep them for some other reason than it being some "macho", I need to show off reason. Have the right reason to keep them, like a long term passion and a desire to contribute to the knowledge of the species kept. By the way, breeding a zillion puff adders or any other common venomous snake does not contribute in anyway to knowledge of the species.

2) The proper training and apprenticeship under the watchful eye of another experienced keeper. Why do you think it’s a real rarity to hear of a Zoo keeper getting tagged? They train, and train and train some more. They never let their guard down, for the snakes are always thinking of ways to get ya.

3) Fear for the safety of others first. Make sure your room/facility is secure, so if something gets out of the cage it cannot leave the room. In addition to the room keep your snakes in professional grade enclosures. I don’t want to hear whining about the cost because whatever it is, it’s far less costly than a bite. The absolute worst thing that could happen is somebody’s snake gets out and bites their neighbor or family member. How fast can you say TOTAL BAN?

4) Develop and maintain proper bite protocols for the snakes you keep. It’s highly recommended that you keep your own stocks of Antivenom available or belong to an “Antivenom Bank”

Cheers!

Al

-----
"Snakes in Peru are not there for decoration, they really bite people."

Professor David Warrell, Omaha 10/21/05

Off-hand, if the person has to ask themselves if they should keep hot stuff....they shouldn't.
-----
1.1 Blackheaded pythons
1.1 Woma (Juvie female)
2.1 Aussie Olives
1.1 Timors
1.0 Angolan Juvie
1.1 Savu
1.1 Juvie Bloods
1.1 Juvie Balls
1.1 IJ Carpets
1.1 Coastal Carpets
1.2 Macklotts
1.1 Papuan Olives
1.0 Jungle Carpet
2.2 Scrubs (on breeding loan)
0.1 Jungle/Diamond cross
0.1 child, CB
0.1 wife, WC

Degree? Where is there a college or university that will give you hands-on experience with hot stuff?

Al pretty much nailed it.

I don't have a degree in anything..yet I have been paid to teach teachers venomous snake identification, snakebite avoidance & proper first-aid for snakebite. The teachers accrued credits for taking the class.

I guess degrees mean more to some people than to others.

~~Greg~~

Thats a good question. Some zoo keepers think only people that arent afraid of permanent nerve damage or missing fingers,etc should consider keeping venemous.

Thanks a bunch guys, I was watching a television show today called 'snake wranglers' on national geographic about that guy who was on www.venomousreptiles.com the other day, You know the guy that was born in hungary and was on the home page. He probably isn't up anymore but anyway I was thinking to myself that everyone should be like this guy if they keep venomous snakes, he was doing everything perfect. That neurological thing is the fact that I will probably never keep venomous snakes, I have a deep respect for them though. I have another question, even if you have a herp degree and been keeping snakes all your life is it a matter of "if" or "when" you will get bitten? Heh most people that have herp degrees get shows... Jeff corwin,Mark O'shea,The guy that I mentioned above,Steve Irwin(?). Thanks for your input guys I appreciate it but 1 thing I Disliked was when one of you said that a person that keeps venomous snakes can be a person who've thinks he's "moved up".... Please explain this because my fathers friend earl has been keeping snakes for 35 years and hasn't "moved up", I think thats wreckless. But thanks for all your replies.

I think the "show" refered to on TV is "Austin Stevens, snake (something or other)" He's a joke. Good photography, nice soundtrack, idiot picking planted captive snakes out of the jungle. He's been bitten, will be again.
-----
1.1 Blackheaded pythons
1.1 Woma (Juvie female)
2.1 Aussie Olives
1.1 Timors
1.0 Angolan Juvie
1.1 Savu
1.1 Juvie Bloods
1.1 Juvie Balls
1.1 IJ Carpets
1.1 Coastal Carpets
1.2 Macklotts
1.1 Papuan Olives
1.0 Jungle Carpet
2.2 Scrubs (on breeding loan)
0.1 Jungle/Diamond cross
0.1 child, CB
0.1 wife, WC

wwhat du yu meen midsibg finbgers/

Others have said it better here, but the bottom line is hands on does make a better herper than the book bred variety.

I was taught my skills by the Palm Beach Herp Society (and largely by Greg Longhurst. I took my position at Lion Country from a man who had a degree but did'nt know the first thing about proper husbantry.

Many of the degreed people I met throught the years seemed more interested in bottling specimens than maintaining a live animal.

So I would have to say, When you have someone with the desire to learn the joy of experiencing these snakes, then you have a person capable of proper keeping of venomous snakes.

A degree is totally Unnecessary.

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

Oddly enough, my background covers the bases mentioned:
1. Degreed in animal/biological/physiological sciences through a Ph.D..
2. Over ten years experience with colubrids.
3. A year of mentoring with venomous reptiles (still in progress).

My take is that the order of relevance (from greatest to least)for keeping venomous reptiles is #3, #2, with #1 a distant third.

Good answer.
If you had a choice to be at two parties where you knew someone was going play a prank by dumping a N. koauthia on the floor at each. Would you go the Biology professors' party or colubrid keepers' party? (This is a philosophical question because obviously you would report this to the proper authorities in advance.
Jim

Well, If I had a choice, I'd go to the colubrid keepers party, because there would be a keg there! LOL!
J/K!

Keeping venomous snakes is a desire and a quest to be able to study and learn from. It is NOT something learned in college or a book.
Lord knows I have seen keepers right out of college come into the reptile dept. of a zoo and not have a clue what a snake hook is, OR having the skill to even use one!

It's practice, watching and being tutored by skilled keepers,asking questions,(such as this and other forums) safety, being prepared for the worst, having access to AV, and just good all-around "common sense".

To me, hubanding venomous reptiles is no harder than keeping non-venomous reptiles.

I have the desire, BUT, I learn something everyday.
I have been keeping venomous snakes for slightly over 39 years
and I believe venomous snakes are more predictable than non-venomous snakes. ONLY because you are more careful and attuned to venomous snake behavior, thus, less likely to have an accident.

Randal

MOST people who want to keep a venomous reptile SHOULDN'T. I could talk for days on this subject but suffice to say, based on being in this field professionally, keeping an extensive venomous herp collection, and, in dealing with many agencies in matters involving the illegal keeping of venomous herps (or just irresponsible keeping period), the vast majority of people, even those on this forum, shouldn't.....just far too many irresponsible owners. But does that mean that private individuals shouldn't keep venomous? Of course not, there are many folks, even on this forum, who are very responsible and extremely professional and people I respect very much (See Al's remarks they are right on....can't add much more to his).

Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center
Lake Forest, IL

>>Hey guys I don't post threads here at all and usually lurk but was just curious as to what you guys thought. I wanted to know who do YOU think should be keeping/handling/mantaining venoums herps (specifically snakes)? Should It be people with actuall degrees in herpetology or should it be the common herp sympithizer thats only had colubrids for a few years and thinks he/she can move up. Personally I think it's only people with degrees in herpetology that know how to handle the snake/bite wounds/escapes. But what do you think?
-----
Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center at Elawa Farm
Lake Forest, IL

I wrote a longwinded reply to this that somehow dissapeared when I hit preview. Well, suffice it to say that I do not think a degree or professional standing should dictate whether one should be able to keep a venomous reptile. As Al pointed out, many of us "old timers" did not have this resource available to us. Our experience developed out of our passion, 30 years of experience hunting, catching, and maintaining snakes taught me far more than I could of learned when I was getting my degree(s).
The academic portion allows one to focus their interest into specific areas and lend support to the ability to maintain a venomous snake but it by no means defines the ability.
Al summed up the generally acceptable requirements best, to this I would add more mentoring with professionals.
Unfortunately too many people who should not be keeping venomous reptiles do so and we end up reading about them in the paper or hearing about them on the news.
my 2 bits...
Cheers
B

....Ya mite wana cut n paste this to a larger font...cuz its a long post....

This is always a recycled...theme....but a good one..cuz it forces herpers to take sides! Im hugely in the permit or prohibit side...cuz I've seen & had to mop up behind...any number of nutcases possessing hot snakes. I really like the idea of a bond posting/insurance or meaningful permit system like Fl to weed out the most egregious....Ck out the cobra story appended below....incredible that society tolerates that possibility...as we vote for those who promise....& then deliver...more laws.... for our total security!

Anyway this is what it went like last time....the first coupla rants are mine...

Posted by regalringneck on July 27, 2001 at 07:32:24:

In Reply to: Re: A Call to Arms ...ok Ill bite the bait.... posted by regalringneck on July 26, 2001 at 21:47:37:

What a chump I am! Here I thought logic mattered to others too! All you need is a healthy fixation on what self wants & just go4it muttering about freedom. I hope (hope springs eternal...) that any Natl. Council will be comprosed of more rational individuals than has been seen thus far here. Hint guys: There is no logical analogy nor metaphor that connects traffic/guns/drugs/dogs etc. to the logical outcome of a taipan cruising the neighborhoods of our cities. I've maintained lots of hots & more than once been distracted away from an open cage to come back & have to find & catch the nasty...Do it enough, it'll happen to you. When your hand is as scarred as mine, we can talk about what might constitute appropriate ammends for an unfortunate innocent.
Contrary to current thought...It aint "all about me"!
cheers & beers, john gunn

: Pray tell, will someone explain the logic that permits many to think it is ok for anyone (& everyone) to keep a venomous snake in an urban environment (unfettered by govt regulation or permitting process)? The 2nd ammendment mebbe (I know...you can have my mamba when you pry my cold dead....blah blah blah)? Does the same logic allow me to keep my favorite....virus...ebola? Well why not?
: Im here to tell you if my sweet Sarah wound up losing her arm (or life) from making the simple mistake of picking up a simple brown snake running loose in the neighborhood....the owner had better pray the govt. gets to them before we have our private meeting of the minds & "closure"!
: Keepers of hots need to stand or fall on the merits (or lack thereof) of their argument, & not try to become cryptic by mingling their wants w/ the privledges our society currently affords keepers of harmless herps.
: I still shudder to think about one nutcase I shut down w/ a dump of a backyard filled with torn cardboard boxes full of snattlerakes (113 )....he was going to start a venom ranch! The neighbors finally got sick of the AWOL buzztails....Folks you have to understand the median IQ out there is scary!
: None of this is meant to minimize the need for a National Council that argues our interest mind you.
: OK; standing by for incoming.....

Posted by Marty on July 27, 2001 at 12:18:55:

In Reply to: Re: A Call to Kevin et al...I see my error now... posted by regalringneck on July 27, 2001 at 07:32:24:

"What a chump I am! Here I thought logic mattered to others too!"

I guess you are a chump because you are wanting to impose what you consider "logic" on others. So what you said at the end of your post, "It aint all about me!," actually, seems to be untrue. It is about you and the way you think things should be. Just because you don't think it is wise for people to be able to keep hots "in the city" just means that you are like the rest of us - you have an opinion on a subject.

"All you need is a healthy fixation on what self wants & just go4it muttering about freedom."

I guess you could do the same as you cruise down the road behind the wheel downing your Heinys or shooting ground squirrels fron a vehicle and think, because of our freedoms as Americans, that such acts should be allowed as well. Afterall, firearms and driving under the influence have never hurt anyone, right?

"I hope (hope springs eternal...) that any Natl. Council will be comprosed of more rational individuals than has been seen thus far here."

I agree. Hopefully you will not have anything to do with representing the herp community as a whole. Again, you let your bias and beliefs lead you to think you know more about herps and what is right than others.

"Hint guys: There is no logical analogy nor metaphor that connects traffic/guns/drugs/dogs etc. to the logical outcome of a taipan cruising the neighborhoods of our cities."

Another JG assertion. Might as well start crying that the sky is falling. I challenge you to find me one verified case where a person was invenomated and required hospitalization after being bitten by an eascaped hot. You're right, guns, drugs, dogs don't make a good analogy to a taipan cruising down the street. The others are likely to happen, do happen frequently, and have severe reprecussions. Can you honestly and FACTUALLY state the same is true about escaped hots?

"I've maintained lots of hots & more than once been distracted away from an open cage to come back & have to find & catch the nasty...Do it enough, it'll happen to you."

Now we know the basis for your concerns. You are applying the neglect you demonstarted while keeping venomous animals to others. Just because YOU didn't follow the rules of common sense when dealing with your animals doesn't mean th the right to keep such animals should be taken away from responsible individuals. And, I doubt it will happen to me or most venomous keepers because when we are working with our snakes there is only one concern when that cage is open...THE SNAKE! You do not turn away or let a distraction take you from an open cage. If something arises, you CLOSE the cage and deal with it. Irresponsible keepers like you is what we need to worry about. You give responsible keepers a bad name. And, why should keeping venomous be any different that doing anything else that poses a threat to other humans? We don't outlaw driving when people run red lights and kill others, or guns when a child finds their parents' fully loaded and unsecured firearm and shoot themselves. Why should hots be different? Because you say so and consider it an unnecassary risk? Let us then do away with everything that is unnecessarily risky and have the world become very boring and bland.

"When your hand is as scarred as mine, we can talk about what might constitute appropriate ammends for an unfortunate innocent."

Was this unfortunate incident do to your actions or someone else's? If your scarring is a result of how your kept or handled your animals, you have already done the best thing you could in getting rid of your venomous. And if that is the case, no ammends need to be made, except to you by you.

"Contrary to current thought...It aint "all about me"!

Did I miss something? It sure does seem to be "all about" you. It is what you think is wise, safe, and "logical." Your opinion is as valid as those of others, but until hot keepers, and herp keepers in general, prove they cannot responsibly keep herps, the outlawing of such animals should not occur. The greatest risk is always to the keeper, and it seems you have already learned that painful lesson.

Posted by G Watkins on July 27, 2001 at 19:42:10:

In Reply to: We see your error as well posted by Marty on July 27, 2001 at 12:18:55:

Hopefully you will not have anything to do with representing the herp community as a whole.

Marty, you aren't going to convince him by insulting him. And I for one would welcome his participation in these groups, all viewpoints need to be expressed, debated, and (with any luck) at least compromised on.

Besides, some of his points make excellent sense. I doubt that you can question that there are some people out there keeping venomous that have as much business keeping them as I have flying a Harrier.

Regalringneck:

You say:

"Hint guys: There is no logical analogy nor metaphor that connects traffic/guns/drugs/dogs etc. to the logical outcome of a taipan cruising the neighborhoods of our cities."

No, there isn't. In part, at least, because a Taipan loose in the city probably isn't going to be seen by anyone, much less bite anyone. I'm aware that pythons have worked into Florida neighborhoods, but it's important to note: they also evidently survived for quite a while and grew quite a bit without anyone knowing they were around, in spite of their size. A Taipan loose in the city is going to avoiding people, not attacking them; its also going to be severly disoriented and will likely spend most of its time hiding.

I mentioned in an earlier post the forest cobra I recaptured in an urban apartment building. It took the better part of three days to find the snake; in that time no one had seen it (most of the residents didn't know about its presence or escape, but considering average forest cobra behavior we would have heard about it if someone had come across it). What was it doing when I found it?

Hiding.

"I've maintained lots of hots & more than once been distracted away from an open cage to come back & have to find & catch the nasty...Do it enough, it'll happen to you."

Here I have to agree with Marty in a way. How could you become "distracted" when a hot snake's cage is open? It'd take a house fire and more to distract me under such circumstances...

And no, that never has happened to me, in spite of 40 years of experience with hot snakes.

"When your hand is as scarred as mine, we can talk about what might constitute appropriate ammends for an unfortunate innocent."

My hands are not scarred. I have never been hit by a hot snake, in spite of years that I handled and milked them (for a research project) on a daily basis. Many of my herp friends accuse me of being overcautious with them. I take it as a compliment, they have been bitten and I have not.

But by implication you are correct in one matter: if one keeps venomous snakes, one should damn well be responsible for them. They should not escape, there should not be a regular litany of "accidents," if there is something is wrong.

Once many years ago a nice family, parents and an 8-year old boy, came to view my snake collection. The nice boy, however, turned out to be rather bratty. After viewing the snakes and being allowed to handle a tame boa, he announced that I was a fake, that what I had said was an Eastern Diamondback was, as he put it, a "big garten snake you glued rattles on." He then announced that he was going to prove it, and to do so he started to open the diamondback's cage.

This was a 7 foot male diamondback that had been raised from birth in captivity in my home. He was very used to being around people. It was also not far from feeding time. The cage was on a level with the boy's face, and the diamondback was ready. If he had opened the cage, it would have struck him in the vicinity of his eyes - and, since it would be a feeding stroke and not defensive, major venom injection could have been expected. The kid has just watched me open an identical cage to take out the tame boa, so he knew how the cage opened. A worse scenario is hard to imagine. Or perhaps the worst was that the child's mother merely giggled and said something inane, like, "Now Johnny, don't do that" - while the kid is trying to lift the glass cage front.

But there was no crisis, no need for alarm. The cage, of course, was locked, and the glass was 1/4 plate, not easily broken. I was able to assure the brat that the snake was indeed a diamondback while ushering the nice family out of my home as quickly as possible.

My point is, if the kid had yanked open an unlocked cage, or broken flimsy glass, and had gotten bitten in the face - I would have been responsible. Not the monumentally-stupid kid.

If you keep venomous - or large boids - you have a duty to ensure that there are not "accidents." It can be done. It takes a little extra effort, but it's worth it.

Especially in terms of public relations.

Posted by regalringneck on July 28, 2001 at 00:58:59:

In Reply to: Marty, Regalringneck posted by G Watkins on July 27, 2001 at 19:42:10:

Hi G. W. N-joy your posts. I would have saved the forum this further tedium had you hotlinked your domain...

From several private-emails, apparently the expression & my subsequent use of "its all about me" is poorly understood (as I so oft am!). It was first observed by yours truly on a bumpersticker on a beautiful BMW convertible operated by a flashy young lady cruising past me on the san diego freeways @ 80 mph . I think it speaks volumes about many today. This value system clearly underlies many of the respondents to this tiresome thread.

Heres my thoughts regarding reasonable solutions then I'll append a couple more @ your inserted points.

I do feel a permit system would be reasonable for hots (mebbe
> a mentor program for a class 3 license as is being done w/ falconers) cuz
> hots must be kept under lock & key to be reasonably safe. Big constrictors &
> monitors I have less to no issue w/ cuz the risk is so much less. Ive heard
> the dart frogs become harmless in captivity???
>
> A permitting system would seem to allow serious hobbyists their freedom &
> limit access to hots by the many many nutcases running amok.
> Its degrees of dangerousness society must manage, & I think my ebola example
> distills the principal at the exstreme end. In the cities we just cant have
> anyone keeping really dangerous mobile organisms be they
> tigers/ebolas/chimpanzees or cobras. Can you imagine the damage awards that
> would be demanded of the city if a permitted animal escaped? How can that
> risk be in the interests of the general taxpayer who has no interest in the
> matter but will be asked to foot the bill?
> Perhaps keepers need to post a damage bond or buy an insurance policy.
> Theres people out there that would like to possess an armed cobra gunship,
> sometimes the answer just has to be no.
> N-joyed this latest xchange w/ you,
> john gunn

G. Watkins:

: "Hint guys: There is no logical analogy nor metaphor that connects traffic/guns/drugs/dogs etc. to the logical outcome of a taipan cruising the neighborhoods of our cities."

: No, there isn't. In part, at least, because a Taipan loose in the city probably isn't going to be seen by anyone, much less bite anyone. I'm aware that pythons have worked into Florida neighborhoods, but it's important to note: they also evidently survived for quite a while and grew quite a bit without anyone knowing they were around, in spite of their size. A Taipan loose in the city is going to avoiding people, not attacking them; its also going to be severly disoriented and will likely spend most of its time hiding.
: I mentioned in an earlier post the forest cobra I recaptured in an urban apartment building. It took the better part of three days to find the snake; in that time no one had seen it (most of the residents didn't know about its presence or escape, but considering average forest cobra behavior we would have heard about it if someone had come across it). What was it doing when I found it?: Hiding.

R squared: The fact that it was hiding is irrelevant to the real risk of it being discovered crossing the street or curled up behing the trash can & being assumed to be someones milk/corn/gophersnake & freehandled. Herpers responding to urban snake calls should always keep this possibility in mind.

: "I've maintained lots of hots & more than once been distracted away from an open cage to come back & have to find & catch the nasty...Do it enough, it'll happen to you."

: Here I have to agree with Marty in a way. How could you become "distracted" when a hot snake's cage is open? It'd take a house fire and more to distract me under such circumstances...
: And no, that never has happened to me, in spite of 40 years of experience with hot snakes.

R squared: Good for you, & shame on me. Trust me tho...it is really easy to do, here in phx. numerous children are being buried because their caregivers got distracted for just a few minutes (drownings). Humans are fallable, even those of us generally banging on all cylinders!

: "When your hand is as scarred as mine, we can talk about what might constitute appropriate ammends for an unfortunate innocent."

: My hands are not scarred. I have never been hit by a hot snake, in spite of years that I handled and milked them (for a research project) on a daily basis. Many of my herp friends accuse me of being overcautious with them. I take it as a compliment, they have been bitten and I have not.

R squared: Glad to hear it. Mine was a legitimate bite; digging an iguana out of a hole! My point was I know firsthand the agony these bites can cause.

: But by implication you are correct in one matter: if one keeps venomous snakes, one should damn well be responsible for them. They should not escape, there should not be a regular litany of "accidents," if there is something is wrong.
: Once many years ago a nice family, parents and an 8-year old boy, came to view my snake collection. The nice boy, however, turned out to be rather bratty. After viewing the snakes and being allowed to handle a tame boa, he announced that I was a fake, that what I had said was an Eastern Diamondback was, as he put it, a "big garten snake you glued rattles on." He then announced that he was going to prove it, and to do so he started to open the diamondback's cage.
: This was a 7 foot male diamondback that had been raised from birth in captivity in my home. He was very used to being around people. It was also not far from feeding time. The cage was on a level with the boy's face, and the diamondback was ready. If he had opened the cage, it would have struck him in the vicinity of his eyes - and, since it would be a feeding stroke and not defensive, major venom injection could have been expected. The kid has just watched me open an identical cage to take out the tame boa, so he knew how the cage opened. A worse scenario is hard to imagine. Or perhaps the worst was that the child's mother merely giggled and said something inane, like, "Now Johnny, don't do that" - while the kid is trying to lift the glass cage front.
: But there was no crisis, no need for alarm. The cage, of course, was locked, and the glass was 1/4 plate, not easily broken. I was able to assure the brat that the snake was indeed a diamondback while ushering the nice family out of my home as quickly as possible.
: My point is, if the kid had yanked open an unlocked cage, or broken flimsy glass, and had gotten bitten in the face - I would have been responsible. Not the monumentally-stupid kid.
: If you keep venomous - or large boids - you have a duty to ensure that there are not "accidents." It can be done. It takes a little extra effort, but it's worth it.
: Especially in terms of public relations.

R x R: that is exactly the point how do we (society) responsibly insure this "adherance to duty" w/o govt intervention???
I suggest a key factor for many of us to consider is why should we run the real risk of losing our hobby w/ critters as dangerous as a budgie, in order to provide a small solidarity for an even smaller minority that are infatuated with deadly herps? We need to be realistic & realize decision makers are not going to lose alot of sleep on this one. The path of easiest enforcement will be chosen if we dont start w/ a reasonable agenda. So we come full circle to my initial challenge & Im still awaiting that logic...but im not holding my breath!

cheers, jg

13-Foot Cobra Found In Orlando Home
Man Shoots, Kills Giant Snake
Posted: 11:29 p.m. EDT October 6, 2001
Updated: 12:24 a.m. EDT October 7, 2001

ORLANDO -- An Orlando man discovered a 13-foot deadly cobra in his home Saturday while he was walking in his garage.

Giant Cobra Found In Home

Rick Eslinger said that when he recognized that the snake was a cobra he took a picture and called police.

"At first I didn't want to mess with him because I thought he was just a native snake," Eslinger said. "I couldn't see what he was but when I saw that he was a cobra, we knew it had to end."

Eslinger shot and killed the snake. He told WKMG Local 6 News that he plans to have the cobra stuffed.

Officials say that there is no word on how the snake got into Eslinger's garage or where it came from.

Watch WKMG News for more details on this story.

Copyright 2001 by myCFnow.com. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed

:
: : I have in print and have for awhile the biggest onslaught on us as reptile keepers/breeders in this country of proposals, restrictions, and out right bans. Even if some of these don't pass they are on the books and can eventaully be looked at again and or up for consideration at a later date ! Remember that even small laws that were only in the "thinking" stage are now coming back up . I posted a city law up for banning animals in Colorado. How many think that this ban will only be kept in that city limit without going before the state of Colorado one of these days ? Ask New York how the whole proposed law came in that state ! I remember that some of these restrictions were only city wise ...now possibly state wide. JOIN UP ! Make this everyones stand that has ANY interest of EVER keeping reptiles and or keeping reptiles at this time. WE NEED TO BECOME VERY PRO-ACTIVE AND BE HEARD THAT WE AS A COMMUNITY/GROUP ARE NOT GOING TO STAND FOR THESE LAWS !

: : M Chambers

: : : Some of you may be tired of this from me but it is my feeling that with the surge of new and unfair herp laws in the past couple years we need the NRAAC . If we do not act now many of you will not be able to keep the animals you have . Hot herps and large boids will be the first to go . If things keep going the way they are we will be lucky to be able to keep a house gecko . We must act!! We must revive the NRAAC !!!

: : : Kevin Lorentz ---- NRAAC Ohio Chapter
: : : P.S. Dont believe the need ? take a look at the Law Forum.

: : : The rattlesnake was the favorite animal emblem of the Americans even before the Revolution. In 1754 Benjamin Franklin's Pennsylvania Gazette printed the picture of a snake as a commentary on the Albany Congress. To remind the delegates of the danger of disunity, the serpent was shown cut to pieces. Each segment is marked with the name of a colony, and the motto "Join or Die" .
: : : By 1774 the segments of the snake had grown together, and the motto had been changed to read: "United Now Alive and Free Firm on this Basis Liberty Shall Stand and Thus Supported Ever Bless Our Land Till Time Becomes Eternity"
: : : Many authors felt the rattlesnake was a good example of America's virtues. They argued that it is unique to America; individually its rattles produce no sound, but united they can be heard by all; and while it does not attack unless provoked, it is deadly to step upon one.

: : :
: : : Its time for that rattle to be heard again.
: : : Herpetoculture and Herpetology are under attack in the United States. hobbyists are going to prison, and spending massive amounts of time and money in court battles while super-collectors suck our ponds and lakes dry of turtles for the asian food market. Raids on hobbyists look like assualts on crack houses. Inane state laws are being utilized to entrap hobbyists into commiting federal offenses. The battles are being fought in the press with little regard to the actual outcome of the trials. Shipping regulations are being proposed that will literally shut this hobby down.

: : : Its got to stop.

: : : We've got to rattle.

: : : Its time to stand up and do something.

: : : Today I am proposing a new organization, The National Reptile & Amphibian Advisory Council. When the NHA went defunct we lost our voice. We can't wait around for PIJAC (Pet Industry Joint Advisory Council)to do something.

: : : NRAAC's charter will be to be a watchdog over federal and state agencies involved in the Reptile and Amphibian hobby/industry. In this role it will act as an advisory group to individual state member groups to provide them legal, financial, and media support. This organization is brand new and we will be looking for people interested in starting state chapters, and working at a statewide level.

: : : Please stop by this site (NRAAC site ) often and for the hobbys sake pass on this sites URL. Whether you are a hobbyist, academic, breeder, or 12 year old kid we need your support, financially and spiritually.

: : :
: : : Jeff Barringer
: : : Acting President
: : : National Reptile & Amphibian Advisory Council
: : : nraac@kingsnake.com
: : : -------------------------------------------------

: : : Listen to him we need not roll over and die or crawl under a rock .

: : : Kevin

Thanks A LOT for teaching me that people with herp degrees are probably no better than the average joe walking down the street picking up snakes that he thinks are kings or something. I also wonder how this got turned into a hot topic Anyway No the show was not austin stevens jaykiss, Notice I didn't mention him when I said the names of people who have herp degrees and tv shows, He's a poor sap from australia thats In qoute,"steve Irwin wanna be". The guy I was talking about is hungarian and trust me he could teach a thing or two to probably anyone dealing with venomous snakes, not because he has a tv show but because he just can lol. But serriously now I know you don't HAVE to have a herp degree for keeping venomous snakes. And yes there should be permits for everyone but thats just my opinion. What would you guys rather handle? A Crotalus cerastes or a full grown adult burmese python? I ask because it seems like you guys are somewhat fearless. And maybe I will decide sometime in the future to keep venomous snakes but thats when I get old and lived my life, can't walk around with 3 fingers ya know? What are the rules for this though? Can anyone provide me with some papers explaining the toxicity of venomous snakes in North america or any other continent? Thanks I'm thankful FOR ALL the replies of you smart people and want to thank you for that and have a good evening. God Bless

>>Thanks A LOT for teaching me that people with herp degrees are probably no better than the average joe walking down the street picking up snakes that he thinks are kings or something. I also wonder how this got turned into a hot topic Anyway No the show was not austin stevens jaykiss, Notice I didn't mention him when I said the names of people who have herp degrees and tv shows, He's a poor sap from australia thats In qoute,"steve Irwin wanna be". The guy I was talking about is hungarian and trust me he could teach a thing or two to probably anyone dealing with venomous snakes, not because he has a tv show but because he just can lol. But serriously now I know you don't HAVE to have a herp degree for keeping venomous snakes. And yes there should be permits for everyone but thats just my opinion. What would you guys rather handle? A Crotalus cerastes or a full grown adult burmese python? I ask because it seems like you guys are somewhat fearless. And maybe I will decide sometime in the future to keep venomous snakes but thats when I get old and lived my life, can't walk around with 3 fingers ya know? What are the rules for this though? Can anyone provide me with some papers explaining the toxicity of venomous snakes in North america or any other continent? Thanks I'm thankful FOR ALL the replies of you smart people and want to thank you for that and have a good evening. God Bless

n/p
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Venomous snakes---best hobby on earth!
Bill Huseth

I don't remember his last name but I think thats who you are referring to. Ron
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The Crawl Space

..he's featured time to time on National Geographic's Snake Wranglers series. A great guy to talk to. I had the pleasure of meeting him twice. He's very low key.

MCH

I'll ditto that; I've had a chance to meet him and talk herps with him...very down to earth, easy going, and KNOWS his stuff (and takes pretty darn good pics too!).

>>..he's featured time to time on National Geographic's Snake Wranglers series. A great guy to talk to. I had the pleasure of meeting him twice. He's very low key.
>>
>>MCH
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Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center at Elawa Farm
Lake Forest, IL