Reptile & Amphibian Forums

FR, you've mentioned the congregating of snakes in Winter, specifically the congregations of sexually-mature adults.

Example, you mentioned an abandoned structure in ratsnake habitat where there were many shed skins, I believe from the snakes congregating there in Winter? (I could have this wrong - shoulda reread that post.)

Do you know why they would do this? Is the selection of the site only based on temperature (i.e. "mass" material temps or sun exposure as you've mentioned) or is there something more?

Do the snakes actually seek one another for some reason?

First I will say, after all this discussion, I had hope to eliminate the word "they" in these types of questions, and or the word "snakes". The reason is, they are way to broad and general for a specific discussion.

In fact, most of the "discussion" below, was to clarify and to induce a more specific question(like yours). As in, what part of the population does not hibernate and what part does. But as you see, most are far to paradigned to even ask such a question. Either that or, most are far to inexperienced to understand that at all times of the year there are a mass of different tasks being accomplished by individuals with different needs. As you must understand, any normal(healthy) population must include all age groups and sizes. Of course, a declining(unhealthy population) may only include old adults. That type of population is not a good study group, at this time in "our"(all of us) research. We need to understand what "they" do normally first.

Then I had hoped people would start to comprehend, that with such things as snakes or better yet kingsnakes. Their ranges and conditions are far to variable to express a constricted defined statement. Like, "they" hibernate or do not hibernate. You really are expressing your own inexperience when you try and say such a thing. There ranges and conditions are far to extreme to say such a thing.

Also, from my experience and as you can see, many others, there are exceptions(varified observations) to just about everything stated. So the term "trend" becomes important.

So to your question, the trend seems to be that adults congregate more often and more regular then any other part of the population. Which leaves other parts possibly not congregating or not to the same extent. So what are these adults congregating for? First let me say, I do not know, why should I, I am studying that now, I think its not a good thing to have a preconcieved idea what the result will be, while in the middle of a study(which is commonplace in science)(in fact, its taught in science). I can say, they are doing this for a reason/s. Or they would not do this. It appears they are doing this for reproductive convience. Which could mean lots of things. Like, because of the varing conditions of each season, its important for the possible breeders to be near eachother as soon as possible. It also appears(evidence leading to) there is some attraction amoung individuals that congregate. That is, possible pairing,to attract a mate or defined, bonded or as in, already paired in the past. Or even something like, its far more important that the breeders be "safe" and live thru adverse conditions then the rest of the population. It also may be that the breeders require a slightly different set of conditions in order to maintain reproductive viability. Also, there are indeed reproductive individuals that do not congregate(exceptions) And yes, its possible that all or most of these are factors.

So, at this time, I do not all the reasons why they congregate(or not), but I do know, there are reasons.

You do understand, that congregating may or may not be related to hibernation. As they congregate across their entire north/south and altitude ranges.

Sorry for the long post, when all I needed was the last few paragraphs, but if we are going to advance in these conversations, we do need to break up these giant lumps of things into seperate more understandable little lumps. FR

or is this reserved for mountain kings? I ask because I haven't seen any evidence for/against this in L.g.g. or L.g.f. Actual field data are lacking in many regards.
-----
Bob Bull
1.3 L.g.getula MD Locality
2.1 L.g.g GA locality
2.3 L.g.g albino
1.4 L.g.g het albino
1.2 L.g.g P-het albino
1.0 L.g.floridana peanutbutter
0.2 L.g.f. het peanutbutter
1.0 L.g.f. N.E. axanthic
1.0 L.g.nigrita
1.1 L.t.hondurensis het hypo-melanistic
0.1 L.t.hondurensis hypo-melanistic

Isn't a known fact that you can find(it has been done many times) several pair of Eastern kings around tree stumps and ac piles in very early spring in Okatee????? Just thought I would ask.

I also had a friend, in fact a famous west texas herper, that made his living going east and collecting Speckled kings by the hundred in very early march. Forkie, any guess as to who that person is? FR

it would only be a guess, but I do know that used to be common place. I can still find Kings in mass in the spring, but not I like I could when I was a kid. Hmm maybe I'm getting dumber as I age?? hahaha.

When I was a kid 10 or 15 kings a day was no problem, especially when 1 good piece of plywood would have 2 splendida and a calligaster or 2 calligaster and a splendida.

I would love to find another place like that in this day and age.

Forkie

PS Big Larry Valentine?? haha

It was, Denny Miller, from Alpine, Chi. Desert research insti. fame(director). He supported his education with commerial collecting. Including Greybands, I have a nice story about that too. FR

I almost guessed Denny, but I thought of him after I posted. I also thought of Chamberlain and Turner.

Forky

I have seen these situations in Ky and it is clear to me these are sexually active snakes. Generally sites with abundant sunshine and lots of AC in which pairs of kingsnakes are often found together under the same sheet of roofing tin and maybe 4 to 8 snakes total at the site. We see these conditions in late March and early April. These snakes appear to be spending the winter in the maze of rodent burrows beneath the AC. Most of these snake will move out after a few weeks but a few gravid females will remain well into June. Definitely a congregation but I would stop short of calling it a mass denning. There can be numbers of these types of places in a fairly small area. Phil

No one said a thing about "mass" denning. The term, to congregate is not exclusive to mass denning. I did say, from pairs to groups of various sizes. Sir, your grabbing at straws again. Use your brain and think, not comment.

Also, you really need to get away for AC, as these snakes are not designed for AC, they are without question designed for your natural enviornment. Also, if you handle them, you will not recieve reliable "normal" behavior, you will recieve, various flight and fight behaviors.

Also consider studying a species that is much easier to study then kingsnakes. Once you get a handle on an easy species, you can then compare behaviors without so much intrusion on the habitat. For sure, to know what kingsnakes do, you pretty much have to destroy habitat. And yes, I have done enough of that to feel real dang guilty. So I recomend to you, study a species that you do not have to disturb the animals and habitat to study. And if your lucky enough to find a basement like the other fella, do your best to study, protect and observe that situation.

Now consider, kingsnakes have always been my favorite and I do not work in the field with them any longer. The reason is simple, its harmful to them and their habitat to investigate deeper, if you get the picture. But its easy to compare data samples, that is, find kingsnakes doing the same behaviors as rattlesnakes. I will say, kingsnakes here gather in much larger numbers then rattlesnakes do. Hmmmmmmmmmm so far, maybe tomorrow will change that. Cheers FR

I stated that what I see is congregations and not mass dennings for clarification purposes of what my observations have been. I was not implying that you were talking about were mass dennings. It was clear to me you were talking about a handfull of snakes.

There is no better method of observing wild kingsnakes here than AC. Natural cover works better for some species. Milk snakes for example are more likely to use rock cuts. I do agree with you about handling the snakes and how this will alter what they are doing. We do that sort of thing often to take pics, measure and do scale counts occasionally and you bring up a good point. Thanks, Phil

You're right, actual data is lacking in regards to overwintering snakes. This is very difficult to study and there is very little info in the literature. I think this is one of the themes of our recent discussions. However, I have seen hibernaculums/dens of the Eastern milksnake and black kings. Did you see my post below (I'll put a link)? Although hibernaculums aren't common enough for all adults to have one there are some available, including in the far north. When conditions are right, large numbers can congregate in one location. The adults probably are resting in pairs or singley in other areas.

Kings and milks often overwinter in rodent burrows, sometimes the same ones they use in summer when foraging. Our property in n. MI is covered with all kinds of burrows...ground squirrels, moles, voles, mice, shrews, etc, use them, as well as other snakes, frogs, etc. There is also the root systems of large trees that often go deep into the ground and provide an escape for snakes avoiding the cold. In the case of some burrows, they can have several entrances and different tunnels, and can be at different levels with varying temps, humidity, etc, and they often have brooding chambers. I'm sure the snakes can take advantage of this and wouldn't be surprised if more than one would be holed up in a brooding chamber

TC

milksnake hibernaculum

Please take no offense, but, all your comments of what you think they are doing are assumptions. To make them not assumptions, you have to see what they are doing, in real time reality, not guess for lack of other evidence.

Just read your post. You constantly assume the "other" as what they do. That sir does not work. Please try to understand what assumptions are.

As you have seen everyone can assume anything they want, but that surely has not gotten us anywhere.

I understand, its hard to not use assumptions. What you have are holes that you saw snakes around, but you have no idea whats going on down there, in winter, do you. Your guessing, and assuming. FR

Frank, though what you say it true to some degree about Terry and for that matter myself making assumptions of what may or may not be happening below the frozen ground in winter, it is also quite clear that you are as well. You are simply assuming that what you have observed in Ariz is also occuring in states well to the north. I know you have mentioned that this is not simply an Ariz phenomena and is much more widespread, but what evidence do you have to support this? When it comes down to it all of us are making assumptions. Its just that some of us are more willing to admit this. I would find your arguments much more meaningful if you had first hand experience witnessing large amounts of winter activity in snake other than in Ariz and Fla. Maybe I missed something and if I did please enlighten me. Have you studied a population of over wintering snakes in the northern U.S.? I can tell you first hand that I spend time in the field 12 months a year. The same AC and natural cover I find snakes under in the warm months I find salamanders under in the cold months so its not like I'm sitting on the couch and guessing about this. Even when we have an unseasonably warm spell in January when the temps are in the 60's and 70's for a week there will be no snakes under tin, boards, rocks, etc..Occasionally we will see Thamnophis, Nerodia ar Regina but that is it. Nothing else. When we start seeing kingsnakes again in March it is clear these snakes have not been shedding or feeding. They are generally thin and their skin is weathered and worn looking. Phil

Your still grabbing at straws. FR

I like your whole response, even the part about my inexperience. I see how I somewhat assume every individual will be doing the same thing at the same time.

I'll be asking more questions.

Anecdotal incident:
I had an adult pair of Cal kings escape under my house in the crawl space (elevated foundation) a few years ago. I had bred these kings for years prior. I found them in Dec coiled together under some wine crates. Temp was about 57 deg. They had the whole area under the house and plenty of other crates and such to hide under, but here they were together. Made me wonder about why they would bother to be together. Could be chance. Might still be. But this discussion has made me think that there could be other reasons. I wish I could test this somehow.