Reptile & Amphibian Forums

How do people sell turtles under 4 inches in Pa?? I thought Pa had a law that you couldn't sell a turtle under 4 inches? How do you get around that law? Any help with this would be appriciated, I get baby turtles in all the time and I want to do things right so I don't get fined Thank You.

You can only sell baby turtles if they are for scientific purposes only. By saying you don't want to get fired, I assume that you work in a retail environment? If so, don't sell them, keep them for display, raise them to a sellable size, etc. But don't sell them. If cought by your manager/store owner, he "should" fire you. But if you get caught by the authorities, the store could be in a heap of trouble. I also think that this is a federal law, not state. somebody correct me if I'm wrong.

Bottom line. Don't "get around it," just don't do it.

Thanks
Todd Evans

Either way, don't do it, you'd be better off

Thanks
Todd

I fact since January 2002 the Dept of Health and Safety in PA has had a regulation in place that bans the sale of turtles period unless the seller warrents to the satisfaction of the Dept. that they are free of salmonella contamination. Follow this link to see the actual reg.

http://www.pacode.com/secure/data/028/chapter27/s27.192.html

This regulation was created without the opportunity for public comment as part of a revamping of the contagious disease reporting requirements. It may be invalid because of the failure to publish it for comment by the public. I am in the process of determining if it is valid and what we can do to force the Dept of health to rescind it and go through the proper procedure.

The four inch rule is a federal one and I have always understood that it allows sales for scientifiac AND educational purposes. I don't see it as "getting around it" to say that ANY pet serves an educational purpose. In the past sellers have posted a notice stating that baby turtles are sold for scientific or educational purposes only and in some cases had buyers sign a notice stating that they were purchasing for those reasons. I don't know for certain that this meets the burden of the regulation it is just what I've seen in the past.

I think it would behoove anyone selling turtles (and other reptiles for that matter) to voluntarily provide information on salmonella and proper hygene with each sale. Many of the regulations out there and being proposed based on exagerated public health concerns. This would help take some of the wind out of the sails of the PETA types. Their true agenda is to ban the keeping of animals period. They are very good at finding issues that appeal to the emotions and using them to accomplish their goals in small steps.

Normally I oppose any compromise with these groups, but the salmonella issue is real (though overblown).

If it is baby sliders you are trying to sell, please don't. Rescues are trying to place hundreds of unwanted pet sliders already. If you do sell them, PLEASE be honest with customers - eventual adult size, size of enclosure, proper heating, lighting, food, and so on. I'm sure there are rescues who would be happy to send customers your way if you have information on slider adoption in the store rather than selling them. If it's not sliders being sold, I doubt anyone would bother reporting you in the first place.

Katrina

Here's the FDA CFR section on selling baby turtles.

(b) Sales; general prohibition. Except as otherwise provided in this section, viable turtle eggs and live turtles with a carapace length of less than 4 inches shall not be sold, held for sale, or offered for any other type of commercial or public distribution.

(d) Exceptions. The provisions of this section are not applicable to:
(1) The sale, holding for sale, and distribution of live turtles and viable turtle eggs for bona fide scientific, educational, or exhibitional purposes, other than use as pets.

---------------------------------

[Code of Federal Regulations]
[Title 21, Volume 8, Parts 800 to 1299]
[Revised as of April 1, 1999]
From the U.S. Government Printing Office via GPO Access
[CITE: 21CFR1240.62]

[Page 638-640]

TITLE 21--FOOD AND DRUGS

Subpart D--Specific Administrative Decisions Regarding Interstate
Shipments

Sec. 1240.62 Turtles intrastate and interstate requirements.

(a) Definition. As used in this section the term ``turtles'' includes all animals commonly known as turtles, tortoises, terrapins, and all other animals of the order Testudinata, class Reptilia, except marine species (families
Dermachelidae and Chelonidae).
(b) Sales; general prohibition. Except as otherwise provided in this section, viable turtle eggs and live turtles with a carapace length of less than 4 inches shall not be sold, held for sale, or offered for any other type of commercial or public distribution.

(d) Exceptions. The provisions of this section are not applicable to:
(1) The sale, holding for sale, and distribution of live turtles and viable turtle eggs for bona fide scientific, educational, or exhibitional purposes, other than use as pets.
(2) The sale, holding for sale, and distribution of live turtles and viable turtle eggs not in connection with a business.
(3) The sale, holding for sale, and distribution of live turtles and viable turtle eggs intended for export only, provided that the outside of the shipping package is conspicuously labeled ``For Export Only

Thanks Katrina. That's the first time I've seen the actual regulation. I think it's ridiculous that they include tortoises if the rationale for the reg is to limit exposure to salmonella.

Actually I think the whole thing is ridiculous. Simple supervision of small chidren and hand washing effectively eliminates the transmission of salmonella. In addition the great majority of healthy individuals infected with salmonella think they have a "bug" and it resolves itself in a few days. The idea that we need the government to protect us from so minor a risk is ludicrous in my opinion.

Why don't rescues just ship sliders to people in areas where they are native for release? To expensive??

Why don't rescues ship sliders for release?

For one thing, if a slider has come through a pet store or any sort of wholesale supplier for reptiles, you don't know what it may have been exposed to. I've seen sliders mixed in with wild-caught Asians, African snake-necks, and even water dragons and monitor lizards in the pet stores. That makes for quite a nice soup of pathogens - bacterial and viral included - that could be spread to native populations of turtles if the slider is released. It's for this reason that it's illegal to release ANY pet reptile in some states. If I were to purchase a native eastern painted turtle from a pet store in MD, I could not legally release it here.

Also, I've paid upwards of $45 to ship one very large, healthy, adult female to an adopter. Granted, it would be cheaper to ship multiple turtles, but it would be expensive to ship all the turtles that come up for adoption. I get asked to place 20-30 a year, although I don't take that many in for various reasons.

It would be easier if stores and vendors were honest and told customers that the cheapest turtle in the store would cost a few hundred to set up properly. I don't have a problem with people selling hatchling turtles, I just wish they would sell those that are easier for the average public to care for, instead of mass-marketing sliders and, to a degree, sulcata.

Katrina