Reptile & Amphibian Forums

hi, i have recently discovered a snake mite problem on 4 of my ball pythons. does anyone have any recomendatiuons how to treat it,
in one enclosure, where i keep my 2 yearlings, i have removed their carpets, baked all of their furniture, and washed the aquarium with vinegar and laid down newspaper, which i plan to change daily
my big adults are a little more troubling, on the little babies, i can see the mites, and remove them( dab on calola oil)
but i cant see them on my big adults, except on the lower jaw, is there a good method for doseing the entire body? what products work best? is washing the enclosure out with vinegar sufficient?
any help would be greatly appreciated

b

I just scanned through it, and although it does have some basic, "okay" information, I disagree with much of their general approach. While it will work, the protocols they suggest are too much of a balancing act with the death of the mite and the death of the snake. This information may work for some people, but I won't endorse the site. (the mite portion; I don't have an opinion about their snake/product sales)

I have never had a snake mite problem in my collection, however the two specific products for snake mites (provent-a-mite is one I recall, but there's another) have been used by many, many people on these forums with great success. If you have further mite problems, consult with your veterinarian about ivermectin.

For others reading this post, and those also to browse the VPI site, ivermectin can very well be toxic to your pets, and is lethal to all chelonians. Use it with a prescription only.

Ian

hi thanks for the help,
i have however found a really good site with reliable sources useing another post on this forum
ill repost it below
i think the ivromectin and benadine aproach might just be the most effective for my snakes, thanks everyone
mite treatments

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"We do not include in our arsenal any of the commercially available "mite cures" that are marketed for herpetocultural use. The few with which we have any personal experience were miserably ineffective and most we have never used and cannot comment on their effectiveness. "
A poor reason to avoid using proper protocols where safety can be measured. Without being specific about what products they have tried, this statement will mislead people away from safe, effective treatment.

"Latex examination gloves"
I agree these are great

"Pest Strips. (See the "Information from the Field" section at the end of this article.) "
"death in snakes... the trick is to use a big enough piece of the bar to create a high enough concentration of the fumes to get the mites, but not too much for the snakes or the keepers."
This is toxic stuff. You can argue that pharmaceuticals are toxic. Pharmaceuticals are tested, documented, and prescribed by a veterinarian who is a proffessional designed to weigh the pro's and con's of a drug/chemical and it's dosage. Asking laymen to in essence, have the snake's life in one hand, and a pest strip in the other, and try to balance it, well, too much risk in my opinion. I have seen too many deaths from pest strips, that pale in comparison to the few illnesses (rarely death) caused by a more proffesional approach. That Japanese person's comments used to justify this VPI's approach actually deter me more. He killed how many snakes? Just what kind of Dr. is he?

"There’s no science in estimating how much pest strip to use, it’s difficult to quantify" more evidence for my point above.

I could go on and on about how they talk themselves into a corner with the pest strips.

Now, Neguvon. I don't think this is available in Canada.. I havn't heard about it. It does sound like a good control, in and around cages but they made it clear that it is toxic and should not be sprayed on the animals. Therefore it shouldn't be used to treat snakes, but rather for the enviromental control that goes with any parasitic treatment.
"Never spray concentrated Neguvon on or around any living thing" I like how they make it clear the difference between concentrated and diluted product. They also give the formula to use.

"Dish detergent" they recommend this but shy away from the "mite cures" mentioned in their opening statement? I can't imagine dish detergent doing a whole lot more than making a mess; I could be wrong.

Ivermectin: It's a personal chill factor for me when a respected public posting recommends this drug and does not mention it is lethal to chelonians (and invertebrates). I know their talking snakes, but how many people find similar mites on their tortoise and read this? It is very effective if used properly.

Please note that all these comments are in relation to part two. After reading part three, I have to ask why they recommend all the crap discussed in part two. (I forgot to comment about mothballs, but with the exception of that neat little vacuum trick, it falls under the same context as the pest strips)
All in all, my opinion (of part two) is it's a redneck approach contained in an otherwise proffessional looking website for a respected business. My quick scan of part three made much more sense, although I don't know how well the soap bath will work at complete eradication.

I hope my opinions make sense, and by all means, neither I, nor VPI should be assumed 100% correct.

Ian

I must disagree with you on a few points. Their comment on the ineffectiveness of other chemical mite eradicators was probably quite correct when it was written several years ago. Since then, products containing permethrin have surfaced which are similar in effect to Vapona pest strips. I will admit that dichlorvos is a serious organophosphate insecticide and although permethrin is not an acetylcholinesterase inhibitor, it is classified as a neurotoxin and must still be used with caution. Serious boid hobbyists have been using dichlorvos strips since the 1970’s without incidence on literally hundreds of snakes. The key is to know what you are doing and use it properly. I conducted a personal study on the use of dichlorvos while at the University of Kansas in the late 70’s. I came to the conclusion that the quantity of strip that appeared to work the best was about one square inch per 5 cubic feet of cage volume. This gave an interior air concentration that was just strong enough to kill the mites over a 12 hour time period. The water was always be removed and the strip section was suspended from the roof of the enclosure inside a perforated container. It should only be left in the enclosure for about 12 hours. This was repeated at weekly intervals for a month. I think toxicity problems come about when keepers leave the strips in the enclosures for too long of a time period. VPI is correct in that the efficiency of the strips drops off rapidly with use, so they should be sealed in their packaging between uses and disposed of after the treatment period. When used with care, I have never heard of any adverse effects with regards to the snakes that it was used with from the many collection owners I have spoken with. Additionally, numerous vets have spoken highly of it’s use, even Dr. Klingenberg.

With regards to their use of mothballs, they strongly point out that they must not be used anywhere near the snakes. They are only used to treat trash containers and the vacuum cleaner.

As far as the use of dish detergent; that is actually a pretty good idea. I worked in an inorganic chemistry and metals analysis lab for over a decade and we made extensive use of nonionic surfactants, or “wetting agents” in the micro tubing of our analytical instrumentation. This is the same material that is in the dish soap detergents. It would do exactly what they say it would do. It breaks the cohesive tension of the water and allows it to laminate to any surface without the formation of air pockets. It is non-toxic and I believe it would aid tremendously in the rapid drowning of the mites as opposed to just straight water. I am not sure either about the 100% eradication, but it could be a pretty efficient and safe first step.

Just some of my opinions on a complex topic. Thanks,

Kelly

While we have different opinions about the usage of certain products, I think that we do agree that the chemicals mentioned will work. Obviously a higher degree of safety comes when the user is knowledgeable, experienced and somewhat mentored in the beginning.

I was unaware of your study on pest strips and this information would add merit to VPI's webpage. I found this section to be written haphazardly even though some attempts were made to quantify how much to use. I also didn't take into account that this might have been a much older webpage.

All in all, perhaps the pest strip topic is becoming outdated as I didn't see it mentioned in section three. I do agree with the soapy bath (mites may hide in the nares, under the anal scute, and on the head, as the snake avoids holding it underwater). I also agree with the N____ spray for the enclosure and it's surroundings.

Ian

nt

it would take a considerable effort. I have not had the proper amount of time available to devote to a formal study of this type that would allow for the acquisition of scientifically valid study results. After having followed its use by numerous hobbyists with various boid species over the last 25 years, I believe that with the proper constraints, dichlorvos strips can be a valuable tool for mite control when used properly. Your concern about its toxicity is valid, and that is why the keys to its use are limited enclosure concentrations over limited exposure periods. All of the problems I have knowledge of regarding its use have come from greatly extended exposure times. I agree, it would be great if someone could look into its use more thoroughly.

Kelly

Such testing would be fabulous. Kelly Haller is a very respected boid keeper and I don't doubt his/her opinion on the usage of these strips. What I do doubt is the consistent safe usage of this knowledge by herp keepers that will have a whole range of herp and practical experience. Such lab information would give veterinarians the ability to base their prescriptions for the substance on fact; but not much more.

Ian

Ecoguard, here are the photos of the mites. I'm quite sure they're Ophionyssus natricis.

[image]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v229/Herptiles.net/Ophionyssusnatricis4x-dorsal.jpg[/image]
[image]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v229/Herptiles.net/Ophionyssusnatricis014x-ventral.jpg[/image]

A few comments on the VPI site...

"No-Pest" Vapona strips are quite dangerous. "Vapona," or rather, dichlorvos is an organophosphate, which can very easily poison or kill any animal, depending on the concentration and obviously, the size and health status of the animal. Using it properly consists of placing a strip in the enclosure, completely sealing it off, and only returning the animal to it once the fumes have completely cleared. This is where almost all organophosphate toxicity cases in reptiles come from, the owner does not properly air out (or neglects to remove the animal from) the enclosure before replacing the animal, and residual fumes poison the animal.

Ivermectin can be used topically, orally or parenterally, and is generally accepted as deadly to chelonians (which they didn't mention). Personally, I think topically is the safest method, as giving a possibly debilitated animal drugs when a less stressful method (physiologically speaking) is possible just doesn't make sense to me. At a concentration of 5mg ivermectin (brand name Ivomec) per litre of water, applied once a day every 4-5 days for at least 3 weeks (according to Klingenberg's Understanding reptile Parasites) is an effective course of treatment.

I've also found a good mineral oil soak and wipe-down effective on smaller reptiles.

For enclosure cleaning, a tough scrubbing and scraping with hot, soapy water, then a good wipe down with a 10% bleach solution is actually quite effective. As long as you really scrape out the cracks and corners to remove eggs and larvae, it works pretty well. Or... my personal favourite, on a hot summer day (and if the enclosure is an aquarium), tape some Saran wrap to completely seal the aquarium and let the temperature rise to some unbearable heights for 3-5 hours (WITHOUT THE ANIMAL INSIDE, of course!!).

Overall, the site puts way too much emphasis on chemical usage. Effective for killing mites, yes, but a pretty big risk for error and you could accidentally poison your pets.

The anecdote of the doctor rubbing his snakes with Vapona strips is sickening, especially that he sacrified MORE animals to test it. These strips should NEVER be left in any cage with any animal, even in a container like he suggests, as you cannot be certain what concentration may harm your animals. Organophosphate poisoning is deadly serious. Emergency treatment including fluids, atropine and diazepam is needed, and that is not a cheap vet visit.

hi everyone, thanks for the help, looks like i sparked a big discussion.
just wanted to let ppl know that my snakes are all mite free. i am beginning to suspect the mites came in on my crix box, since all of the mites were the same age and size.
i beleive i caught them before they could breed.
i changed their cage daily, and cokked their hides at 400 degrees for an hour each cleaning and that seems to have worked. i also gave them all a betadine dip as recomended, although i am not convinced any mites were still present at the time.
all of my snakes are doing well, feeding again, and not spending anywhere near as mich time in their waterbowl.

thanks for all the good advice.