Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I’m curious to know what you all think of captive breeding for conservation. I have invested lots of time and money into this hobby and I can’t wait to see a bit of a return. However, I sincerley would like to make some kind of contribution with the sole purpose of relieving pressure on wild populations.

The last I heard, Ball pythons were under incredible pressure due to wild collecting. Gravid females are collected and their eggs incubated and babies sold. The females are not returned to the wild. “Normal” ball python imports are so cheap that breeders can’t compete. So, they are not being captive bred in any measurable quantities (feel free to correct me if I’m wrong on any of this).

I’d like to suggest that we use our talents to take on the responsibility of breeding for conservation. What would you think of a group of herpetoculturists who each kept a small group of Ball Pythons? The animals could be bred each year and offered wholesale for the same prices as imports. Our costs could be kept low by spreading the breeding groups out. I am a high school science teacher. I am thinking about offering free caging and animals to students who would be willing to raise the animals and be part of this project. Even though each one of the breeders would only be responsible for a small number of adults, there are so many of us now that, collectively, we could make a huge impact.

I’m starting with this forum because many of you who post here seem to be open minded and considerate of the animals’ interests. Before I go to the Ball Python forum with this, I’d like to hear your opinions. Do you feel that this kind of project is even necessary? Is there another species that would benefit more than the Ball Python? Is there already a project like this in place that I could join? Any and all comments would be appreciated. Thanks everybody, I’ll look forward to hearing from you,

Mike

Mike,
...It sounds like a noble plan but....I have heard many claims that in spite of the very large numbers of Ball Pythons being harvested from the wild it is still in small enough numbers that it is a sustainable yield. I am not sure of all the facts but I do know that Ball Pythons have been exported from Africa in incredibly large numbers for almost 20 years. Have you heard of any scientific data to prove that they have become less common in the wild because of this? Have you been to the CITES website and looked at the actual numbers of Ball Pythons exported to see how many are coming from each country? Is there any information there that would indicate smaller numbers being exported from any area like would be expected if the harvest exceeds the sustainable yield. It has been some time since I looked into this on the CITES website but I do remember being surprised that they were coming out of quite a few west African countries rather than just a couple like is often reported. If it was up to me I would seriously limit the number of Ball Pythons being exported out of Africa solely because there are so many of them that the prices are so cheap that it gives people the impression that Ball Pythons specifically and all reptiles generally are "throw away pets". The Ball Python morph breeders would probably not go along with your plan in any way shape or form because it is because of these very large numbers of Ball Pythons coming out of Africa that they have discovered many of their bazillion dollar morphs. In my case if I had any available cage space or more time to devote to reptile breeding I would use the time and cage space on something that interested me more than Ball Pythons.
Good luck,
Jeff

>>I’m curious to know what you all think of captive breeding for conservation. I have invested lots of time and money into this hobby and I can’t wait to see a bit of a return. However, I sincerley would like to make some kind of contribution with the sole purpose of relieving pressure on wild populations.
>>
>> The last I heard, Ball pythons were under incredible pressure due to wild collecting. Gravid females are collected and their eggs incubated and babies sold. The females are not returned to the wild. “Normal” ball python imports are so cheap that breeders can’t compete. So, they are not being captive bred in any measurable quantities (feel free to correct me if I’m wrong on any of this).
>>
>> I’d like to suggest that we use our talents to take on the responsibility of breeding for conservation. What would you think of a group of herpetoculturists who each kept a small group of Ball Pythons? The animals could be bred each year and offered wholesale for the same prices as imports. Our costs could be kept low by spreading the breeding groups out. I am a high school science teacher. I am thinking about offering free caging and animals to students who would be willing to raise the animals and be part of this project. Even though each one of the breeders would only be responsible for a small number of adults, there are so many of us now that, collectively, we could make a huge impact.
>>
>> I’m starting with this forum because many of you who post here seem to be open minded and considerate of the animals’ interests. Before I go to the Ball Python forum with this, I’d like to hear your opinions. Do you feel that this kind of project is even necessary? Is there another species that would benefit more than the Ball Python? Is there already a project like this in place that I could join? Any and all comments would be appreciated. Thanks everybody, I’ll look forward to hearing from you,
>>
>>Mike

I went to the CITES site. It looks like there are limits on the number of Ball Pythons (wild caught and ranched) that can be taken out of Africa. The numbers don't seem to be decreasing over the years. As you said, this suggests a sustainable yield.

I also came across a research paper online that shed some new light on this subject for me. The paper said that ranching typically involves collecting 1.3 or so wild adults and putting them together for a season. When the eggs are laid they are incubated and the adults tend to be released. Once the eggs hatch, the babies are exported. The article mentioned that it is a common practice for the ranchers to release 10% of the babies back to the wild. The report actually recommended that the adults and all babies be exported as well (not released) because the benefit to the economy of the African states outwieghs the cost of depleting the snake population.

The report went on to suggest that Ball Pythons are an invasive species that is taking advantage of the fact that much land is being converted into farms. They prey on the rodents who colonize the farms. Apparently, the wild populations of Ball Pythons are doing very well. I guess ther's no need for alarm everyone. We can all go back to Rainbow boas now.

I was feeling a bit grandiose yesterday. I think it was the mocha latte. I'm not used to that much caffeine. Thanks for letting me vent.

Mike

Mike,
...Next time you are on the CITES website have a look at the Rainbow Boa numbers. I think I saw that the USA has recently come to the top as one of the largest exporters of Epicrates cenchria. I have been wondering if this represents captive born animals or re-export of wildcaught imported snakes. Perhaps some of both. Some of the babies that I sell wholesale go to dealers who request breeders certificates so that they can export them. The number of Rainbow Boas that travel across international boundaries and thus get tracked by the CITES is absolutley minuscule compared to Ball Python numbers. The information on the CITES website is amazing, though, it is sometimes hard to access the specific information you are looking for. The paper you found about releasing the adults back into the wild seems reasonable. When the babies are available in enormous numbers from the importers they do not have the numbers of adults that would indicate they are being imported in big numbers.
Jeff

>>I went to the CITES site. It looks like there are limits on the number of Ball Pythons (wild caught and ranched) that can be taken out of Africa. The numbers don't seem to be decreasing over the years. As you said, this suggests a sustainable yield.
>>
>>I also came across a research paper online that shed some new light on this subject for me. The paper said that ranching typically involves collecting 1.3 or so wild adults and putting them together for a season. When the eggs are laid they are incubated and the adults tend to be released. Once the eggs hatch, the babies are exported. The article mentioned that it is a common practice for the ranchers to release 10% of the babies back to the wild. The report actually recommended that the adults and all babies be exported as well (not released) because the benefit to the economy of the African states outwieghs the cost of depleting the snake population.
>>
>>The report went on to suggest that Ball Pythons are an invasive species that is taking advantage of the fact that much land is being converted into farms. They prey on the rodents who colonize the farms. Apparently, the wild populations of Ball Pythons are doing very well. I guess ther's no need for alarm everyone. We can all go back to Rainbow boas now.
>>
>>I was feeling a bit grandiose yesterday. I think it was the mocha latte. I'm not used to that much caffeine. Thanks for letting me vent.
>>
>>Mike

Knowing nothing of the facts of the populations of Ball's in their natural environment, I would think that if the supply of CB be as much as 75% of the numbers of imports for the same cost to the importers/wholesalers it would be a good idea. Finding enough folks to breed and sell for such a insignificant payoff would be extremely difficult. What could you sell cbb babies for? I am guessing that 7 to 10 bucks a piece would be more than what is paid for a wc or farmed neonate. There would be no way to even come close to one's maintenance costs for a season. Only persons truly inspired with the plight of the Ball would even consider such a proposal.

I personally would be more likely to send someone 100 bucks a year to conserve the Ball than to use my time and resources to produce and sell them. Quite honestly, I would rather have a 100$ worth of birdseed to fill the bird feeder. I don't mean to sound like I don't care, but there are many other things I personally would choose to do....like trap and neuter more cats. Most folks have a soft spot...a cause...some area that they feel compelled to fight for. Thank goodness we all aren't the same.

I think getting the the kids involved in something like you're considering is a great idea. It's those high-school students that will teach and pass on their values to their kids and those kids who will be able to create the needed changes IMO. I fear that it won't be too much longer until a Ball Python is some mysterious interenet fictional character and getting abrasions from being smashed into the ground while playing outside in the rain becomes an "inexperience" that was once read about. Maybe we also need to teach them the correct channels to acheive legislative change in the community.

You asked for opinions....that's mine.

Linda

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