Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Some of you may have read our previous posts about a wild caught female that refuses to eat... i do not want to get rid of her or give up on her so this is our last hope... this morning my boyfriend and i force fed her a small amount of baby formula that was mixed with some b-12, some dewormer and a bit of water... some people have told us that we can use chicken that is blened up... we figured that this baby formula has more nutritional value...
How did we do this? we bought a little syringe and some of that tubing that you would buy for an aquairum tank, i held her head still and firm but not too hard to hurt her... and i straightened out her neck so the tube would go down nice without hurting her inside... and i put the tube down her throat but not that far down... just far enough that it would go straight down... and my boyfriend slowly pumped some of the formula into her...
im lost... i dont know what to do... she looks bad... her belly is green, and there are spots... and we can see her bone structure... it almost looks like her bones are about to pop through her skin... shes skin and bones...
i have a question to ask... how often should we do this to her? should we even continue? i was thinking about doing it once a week until i think shes feeling better and is able to eat... maybe im wrong... so anyone who has done this before could you please tell me what to do? am i doing something wrong?
sorry this post was so long... i have never delt with anything like this before in my life and im worried... we're going to keep crossing our fingers and hope that this will work for her...
heres a picture of what she looks like now... these are the most recent...


thank you all for reading this post...
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Under a dead ohio sky,
Eleven has been and will be waiting,
Defending his light,
And wondering...
Where the hell have I been?
Sleeping, lost, and numb.
So glad that I have found you.
I am wide awake and heading home.
TOOL

I missed your other posts so I don't know if this was mentioned or not. But Cheryl has a great page dealing with wild caughts that wouldn't eat

http://www.thereddragonsden.com/wcballs.htm

worth a look
Wild Caughts

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Misty Sprouse Ball Pythons

baby formula is a better idea than ground chicken... Ball pythons are carnivores, not omnivores like humans so I'd think the formula has a lot of stuff the snake doesn't need.. I'm not a nutritionist nor have I ever had to force feed a snake, but I think the ground chicken would carry more of what that snake needs.. You should also try some pedialyte if you think you're snake is dehydrated.
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Joe Lydon

While baby food probably contains more nutrients, it probably has a lot of other things in it that isn't good for carnivores. I've seen baby food used by a vet to help a half-starved iguana, but they're dietary needs are much different than snakes.

Here is a suggestion. Oxbow hay company makes a product called Carnivore Care which is designed for rehabilitating carnivores. Its used for snakes, ferrets, and predatory birds. See if you can get a local vet to order it for you.

http://www.oxbowhay.com/link.sp?page=CarnivoreCare

Your stressing the animal to the point of no return. What good is tube feeding a animal that is stressed out? Tube feeding isn't going to make a stressed animal turn around like you think it will. It may make your situation worse and may lead to a quicker death. Here is what you need to do: Put the animal in a dark container ( something like a 32 quart Sterilite or similair ). Put a hide ( make the hide so that the entrance is on the top of the hide, not on the side ) on opposite sides of the enclosure. Give it a hot spot at 90 Degrees and a cool spot around 80. Put the biggest water bowl you can fit in it. This will serve two functions: 1. to keep the animal hydrated, and 2. you will only have to refill it every 4-5 days. Keep this enclosure in a room/closet/pantry/whatever with no traffic at all. Only look in on the thing when you are changing the water. These animals can go 24 months without food. When you take the animal out to force feed it, or take pictures, all you are doing is burning those fat reserves for her. You trying to help is only acelerating the process. Do this and at least you are giving the animal a choice to help decide its fate. I'm not trying to put you down, but the defect is not in the animal, it's in the keepers husbandry. Giver her about 4 weeks and put in a large rat pup and see if she'll take it. If not, she can go into her hide and the rat pup won't bother her ( hence the top opening ). Force feeding is not the answer, as this is one of the many ways to help non-feeders start feeding

IMO, from the look of the pictures, if they left her for another month she probably wouldn't make it. I don't think the regular methods for getting a stubborn ball to eat apply here.

Early this year we rescued a small burm that was on deaths door (literally within a day or so).... we tube fed it a few times and within 2 weeks she was eating rats again. Now she is strong and healthy.

I think once the hard decision is made to force or tube feed, when the snake is too weak to eat on it's own, if you stick with it until it's a bit better then start trying again to get it to feed on it's own. Yes it's stressful on the snake, but so is dying.

If you haven't consulted a vet already, do so, and like the other posters have mentioned, make sure she has lots of fresh water at all times in an easy access dish (low and wide), that she has proper temps and lots of hides/dark in a low traffic area.

Good luck and keep us posted, I hope she makes it!
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1.0 gorgeous spider ball python
2.2 het for axanthic
5.20 normals
Blazingreptiles.comup & running!

what did you use when you tube fed your burm? what kind of mixture? i dont think this female has that much left in her... when we pick her up she is all limp... and when we put her down she just seems to melt to the floor of her cage... i have her temps and everything all set up correctly... today iam going out to the pet store to get some things for her cage...im going to get a bigger bin for her... but not too big... i want to make her cage into a forest... maybe shell feel at home? or safer? i think shes depressed from being taken away from her eggs and her home...yesterday i gave her some water... this morning i checked on her and she was drinking it again... so maybe shes feeling a bit better now that she has something in her tummy... i have one of those stainless steel dog dishs in her cage... its non tipable... and it has this black rubber edge so it cant slide around... its kinda small but today im getting her a new one... great dane size... hehe... here is a picture to show you guys what iam keeping her in...but today that will change up a bit... i have some really hot ideas that i want to do... i think i can make two little cave like holes under the new bedding of her cage...
and ill keep you all posted on how shes doing... hopefully we can help her to get over this bump in the road...

-----
Under a dead ohio sky,
Eleven has been and will be waiting,
Defending his light,
And wondering...
Where the hell have I been?
Sleeping, lost, and numb.
So glad that I have found you.
I am wide awake and heading home.
TOOL

Have you tried any meds? I use panicure and flagill on any imported animals i have even gotten in. It isnt very strong when dosed properly and even in weak snakes you shoudnt have a problem. It is a very broard med that will wash out her system of parasites or any other internal problems that may be underlying. Also i think some one said gerbils, thats an excellent idea. It has worked many times in the past for me. Good luck and keep on trying...

This is just advice from a newbie that got two wc's past the eating barrier.(They started at 700grams and both are now over 1300 grams.)

"...yesterday i gave her some water... this morning i checked on her and she was drinking it again..."

Leave her be...she doesn't ever want to see you again.
(This is exactly what she has in mind.)

Cardboard box hides and plastic water bowls on newpaper aren't they best path either.Try two to three inches of dirt,with a natural log hide or a piece of bark or something,half buried in the dirt(She will ambush her prey from there too)....and a nice big water bowl in the front.
Then hang a towel over the front(so she will get to drink in peace),and go away...Don't come back and peek every 3 to 36 hours.(Three days at a time won't kill her(,the stress from seeing you will be what would cause that.)
She was a free animal,and does not wish to be "kept".Whether you wish to feed her and keep her warm the rest of her life or not(she doesn't know that yet either)she will always want out of that box.

Good luck with her.
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Charles Glaspie

Tanstaafl:
"There ain't no such thing as a free lunch".
An acronym created by my favorite author Robert A. Heinlein.

You need a plastic hide, not cardboard, dark, and one that she can get into from the side on the ground.

Do not change her substrate!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (see "hot lava!" post from a couple weeks back if need be)

If she was drinking that is a GOOD SIGN, but you need to give her a HUGE water dish that is VERY low and BIG so she can soak or drink without too much effort.

I would suggest not changing her enclosure either, any huge surroundings changes (bin or substrate) will freak her the hell out!

When I tube fed the burm I used high quality soft canned kitten food (with NO by-products and ONE protein source). Try looking for one or asking at a pet store for one that had chicken only as it's protein. The big name ones are ALL CRAP (science diet, iams, etc.), try Natural choice if you have it there.
Here's the fun part..... you have to blend the cat food with pedialite (it's for dehydrated human babies) untill really smooth. We tube fed maybe a spoonful or two three times over a week. She didn't like it, but she got better.

If she recovers to the point she can take a food item, your best bet will be gerbils. You may have trouble finding feeder gerbils, I suggest getting a male and female pair asap and breed them. They barely stink (seriously, they don't!) but only have 3-4 babies at a time and they grow slow.
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1.0 gorgeous spider ball python
2.2 het for axanthic
5.20 normals
Blazingreptiles.comup & running!

I had 2 wild caught females at one point and was able to finally get them to eat when I offered them gerbil pinkies. Once they started feeding on the baby gerbils I then started following the gerbils with a small mouse. After 2-3 times I was able to get one of them to switch right away to mice and then eventually to rats with no problems while the other one was still finicky and took longer to get off the gerbils and onto mice. I would suggest trying the gerbil approach if you have not already and if you are going to force feed I would also like to suggest force feeding a small meal like a pinkie or a hopper.

Good Luck,
Mohamed

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1.0 Piebald
1.0 66% Het Pied
1.0 Pastel
0.1 Spider
1.2 100% Het pied
1.0 Albino
0.2 100% Het albino
1.1 Normal Bp
0.1 Normal Bp ??
1.1 Albino Nelson Milk Snakes
1.0 Pekingese
0.1 Himalayan

Vet visit and B12 shot? de parasite? to the Vet.

Best of luck!
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Royal Variations

Many a false step is made from standing still.

thank you all for telling me what to do and giving me links and advice!
EricIvins-thank you for being honest and telling me what im doing wrong... i have a box in her cage that has a hole at the top of it... Joe Compel told me to do the same thing before... a few weeks ago i tried letting a fuzzie stay in her cage over night to see if she'd eat it, but nothing happened...
Maggy usually stays in her hide box and doesnt come out unless if she wants water... i try to let her be most of the time... but i sometimes will look so see if she is okay... i have her in a 40 quart sterilite bin and she is always on top so she doesnt have to see me or my boyfriend when ever we go to hold one of our other snakes...
i have to say that i did not like force feeding her today... it upset me... but i will not use the tube again, ill try giving her a dark place with out me looking at her or anything for a week or two and ill offer her a pinkie... if she doesnt take the pinkie on her own, then ill try to force feed her a pinkie and see what happens...
Question- what do you all think about this... what if i put just a little bit of pedialyte in her water dish and mix it with water? kinda like a mix drink... any thoughts on that? or should i just give it to her straight up in small amounts? im just wondering...
thank you all so much again for your help... it means alot!

Ssamantha & Aaron
-----
Under a dead ohio sky,
Eleven has been and will be waiting,
Defending his light,
And wondering...
Where the hell have I been?
Sleeping, lost, and numb.
So glad that I have found you.
I am wide awake and heading home.
TOOL

You keep saying pinkies and fuzzies... how big is this female? She looked rather large to me, which makes me think even pinkie or fuzzy rats won't catch her attention.

How about a weanling rat? Something that moves around, but doesn't know enough to defend itself by chewing the hide off your snake?

we use fuzzie rat pups... (their ears are open but not their eyes and they have fur) because we have tried weaned rat puper before and they will crawl on her body and face and she tries to ball up... personally i think anything that moves too fast or crawls on her freaks her out... and anything larger i think imtimidated... this female is a hair shy of 5 feet long... she really is a large female... also i have been told that if she hasnt eaten in a while that i should try to get her to eat smaller pray.
-----
Under a dead ohio sky,
Eleven has been and will be waiting,
Defending his light,
And wondering...
Where the hell have I been?
Sleeping, lost, and numb.
So glad that I have found you.
I am wide awake and heading home.
TOOL

"also i have been told that if she hasnt eaten in a while that i should try to get her to eat smaller pray."

Small meal plus high temp equals fast digestion...makes sense.

Another way to look at it is...How many convicts would eat a whole turkey dinner the same evening they planned on breaking out of the prison.

I had one take a medium rat(on day two!)...only to regurge it an hour later,and refused for months after as well....it was all my fault.Since the hotspot had fallen just under 88 degrees,i blame myself.The way i see it,if it was warmer...then maybe she would have just tried to go ahead and digest it.
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Charles Glaspie

Tanstaafl:
"There ain't no such thing as a free lunch".
An acronym created by my favorite author Robert A. Heinlein.

Thanks, Christy

n/p
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Under a dead ohio sky,
Eleven has been and will be waiting,
Defending his light,
And wondering...
Where the hell have I been?
Sleeping, lost, and numb.
So glad that I have found you.
I am wide awake and heading home.
TOOL