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Hey Frank, I had really hoped you would answer my question about pheremones. If you have a chance can you check this out?

OK I am following you....but....and is there not always a but? But I must ask since you used to house colonies together. Did the snakes not all breed around the same time? And what about the timing of the females and pheremones? You are making me think....be it wrong or not...that snakes will breed at any given time. In other words if I am following you, you are saying I am preventing them from breeding by not introducing them....but when is the right, or the wrong time to try this? I will tell you for my proven adults I am on the regular old schedule. This suits me fine. However a young snake, like one of my 4 foot yearlings....these were far from this size in spring. So I chose not to let the male come in contact with them. I guess what I am asking is this. Are you telling me my yearling female should or will release the pheremone when I introduce the male? Or possibly the male could care less about pheremones and he will want to get busy? I have seen large females that were not at all receptive to a male til they were ready. And also males ignore females that appeared ready. So try and try again is acceptable in my book, but you are giving me the impression that this is easier than that...and I am asking you why? My husbandry is fairly basic and you know I can only get so much of a gradient...and my cages are only so big. I am trying to make sure I fully understand you, but I am also getting on here in between the 50 things I have to do every day....so I have not much time to thoroughly think things through. I certainly will reread everything. But for now I am trying to make sure I am not overlooking the points you are trying to make. Thanks Tom Stevens

I am having a hard time with this, I wrote a long post then deleted it.

I have already done several posts of the reproductive sequences of kingsnakes. I don't mind doing that again, only simplier, but I would like to hear what you think first. Thanks FR

OK Frank, a good friend of mine whose advice is always taken as good advice asked me to try and breed some of my snakes towards the end of summer, snakes which I felt were too small in spring. He told me he had snakes which appeared to be swollen,...as in ovulating swollen and I checked some of mine and I thought the same thing. My friend is a little more impatient than I am, and I decided to wait....mostly for fear of jeopardising these females for the following season.
Now for the sake of seeing what would happen I paired two of these snakes. I gave them 15 minutes which I observed...and these are young snakes which have never seen a snake of the opposite sex. The male was flicking his tounge nonstop and seemed very interested...the female was very motionless...as every time she moved the male would become extremely alert. I chickened out and removed the male. The snakes had me thinking they may have bred, but I felt there was too much to risk. Things like slugs, egg binding, the female carrying eggs too late in the year to have adequate time recover for next season were a few of my worries.
Now as gross and silly as it sounds I believe I witnessed the "release" of pheremones. That is, I introduced a male to a female...who then gaped her cloaca and literally farted an audible hiss out her tail end. The male reacted immediately and those snakes were breeding minutes later.
I have always thought of pheremones being a spring time thing unless we are talking about snakes who routinely breed late in the year like Subocs. I had not given this much thought as the snakes that bred for me this year were all proven breeders, and it is the younger snakes which grew up so damn fast that got me thinking do I wait or not wait to introduce them? It is apparent the obvious answers to many questions on this forum are cook book style. Each snake has a recipe that usually consists of timing for cooling, warming, ovulation..pheremones blah blah blah.... I simply never gave this any thought. What I specifically mean is if a snake known to breed in spring can succesfully breed in summer. Especially when the timing would be past the time of when I would usually not even attempt to double clutch a snake.
Please keep in mind my snake room is not that big, and it seems when even one female is most likely releaseing that pheremone most of my males go off feed and are trying to escape their cages. I see most of my snakes...Kings, Milks, Corns and Pits...all the males seem to get restless at once. BUT....always a but, some of those horny males are introduced to females and are rejected. So, seeing it takes two too tango I chose not to pair my huge, but young snakes this summer. I saw no reaction, as many of my males were feeding heavily and seemed content to lay around. The young pair I put together, that female was swelling. She looked like she may have been ovulating. So, I gave it a shot. That 1000 gram Brooksi I just posted. She is as big as my proven female. I considered her as well....but did not want to possibly lose a year by gaining a small clutch this year and not much next season.
So honestly I do not know what to think about pheremones and when they are released. I know in Pythons the introduction of a male to a female is part of captive breeding as it can trigger the female to ovulate. I thought that since some of the snakes I had considered were Speckled Kings I may have succesfully produced a small clutch or two from them this spring but chose to give them time to grow instead. They are smaller than most snakes I work with, and have never worked with them in the past so I chickened out. I was under the impression the female had to be releaseing pheremones to tell a male she is willing to produce? I also thought pheremones were a seasonal thing and that there is a window of opportunity captive breeders must be aware of or else your chances of producing form that female is unlikely. I especially hear about this when frustrated breeders are on here asking if others have witnessed copulation yet as their snakes have not, and they fear they will not produce for them this year. So I am guilty of thinking that if I was going to breed my Specks, the time had long passed. I was also worried the snakes were not cooled. Seems like I can't get on here without writing a novel but I think this explains things sufficiently. Looking forward to a reply Thanks Tom Stevens

Without writing a full one book, all you have to do is learn to palpate females. If you feel ovum, then its best to let them breed. Its my opinion, its far harder on the female to absorb ovum then lay eggs, and there is far more chance of error. Sometimes females absorb ovum fine, other times they can die. I lost a gophersnake this year. I did not have a male.

Also, you know I think you worry WAY to much. In reality, a female only needs three to five feedings to regain full condition. The way you obviously feed, maybe two feedings.

I feel you are creating lots of mis-information. Your doing that by not allowing snakes to do what they would have normally done. For instance, I could ask, is anyone had kingsnakes breed int the fall(like subocs) and you would say no, but you say that because of your actions and not the snakes actions. You kept them apart. How on earth do you know what they would have done.

That is far to common here, people say this and that, but the this and that, is based on the peoples actions and not the snakes. I kept them together and provided suitable cages, because I wanted to know what the snakes would do, not what they would do under my control. I provided a range of temps and food. They did the rest.

FYI, I have had cal kings lay good eggs every month of the year. They had no problems.

Sir, think about this, your job is not to command them, but to support them. Your suppose to follow their lead. If not, then don't go around saying your snakes did this or that.hahahahahahahahahaha

Actually you can command them all you want theres nothing wrong with it. Just don't confuse that with what snakes actually do. FR

OK Frank. You are the first person I have ever heard of who had a snake lay good eggs during every month of the year. In the few cases that I have heard of eggs on what is considered the off season it was from snakes which were cycled in a manor to fool them into doing so. I also had no idea resorbing ovum was harder on snakes than laying eggs. I do worry too much, but as I continue working with snakes I worry less and less and I am happy with my results so cool. And again, you are correct I had not tried breeding snakes outside of what I felt was their normal season. I will experiment with that in the future but not with these snakes I am working with now, as I prefer to do things as I have in the past with similar snakes. However you still have not answered my questions.
Are you telling me my yearling female should or will release the pheremone when I introduce the male? Or possibly the male could care less about pheremones and he will want to get busy?
I got a lot out of this post Frank. Put the icing on the cake and let me know what you think about pheremones. Thanks again, great post. Tom Stevens

Let me see, you posed a situation. The situation is solved best by learning to palpate the females, that way you know what condition they are in. So you can decide to present a male.

Pheromones are indeed emitted by the female when she is ready to copulate. But you cannot smell them, so they do you no good. they also do the male no good when the male is in another cage.

If you kept the pair together, she would cycle, emitt the corresponding pheromones and the male would copulate and you would not have a need to ask this set of questions.

So, my comments had nothing to do with pheromones, because that had nothing to do with the question you posed. Do do understand, they emit all sorts of pheromones not, just for breeding. FR

Actually no, this is another thing I was not aware of. I thought pheremones were for attracting males during breeding season, and nothing else. For now I will continue to house my snakes in seperate cages. That goes for most types anyway. Every single person I know keeps all thier snakes seperately but it seems as of late others besides myself have been considering trying things a little differently. I am happy with my production and the overall health of my animals so no need to change things. I have to disagree with one thing you just mentioned though. I believe I have seen males get turned on, which I thought was from a females scent. Without actually being in the same cage. Just from being in the same room. My Black Kings usually breed first. Once they get busy it seems like other males wake up and start trying to escape most likely looking for thier mates. Could be conincedence, regardless, thanks for the replies. Tom Stevens

Hmmmmm why do you disagree over something I did not say. of course they can smell eachother from another cage. Must be torture hey?

Pheromones are a fancy term for scent, you already know that males scent mark things, like territory, trails, objects, possessions, etc. Both males and females emit pheromones. They do that for many reasons its one way to comunicate with eachother.

Haven't you ever been out in the field with another herper and all of a sudden you heard a scream, AWWWWWWW I've been Pheromoned. hahahahahahahahaha and it stinks, AWWWWWWWWWWW. Pheromoned right in the eye, AWWWWWWWWWW

So I wonder. you tooooooo seem to grab at straws(self supporting excuses) Let me see, you support your actions by relating back to production. Hmmmmmmmmmm yet you wonder about their behaviors. They are more then production. AND whos this production for? Is this production solely for your benefit(to sell, to boast, to possess) or is it a reflection of the abilities, health, and potential of the captive snakes?

There is nothing wrong with any of those motives, its just about understanding. I may be wrong, but if its about production, then it appears many of you are not very good. Considering the amount of snakes owned and lack of production. I mean if its production, your concern would be more about meeting production goals, then inducing behavior. For instance, a keeper with thirty females, should easily produce over three hundred offspring a year. With a solid attainable goal of 600 per year.

To make this reeeeaaaaaaal simple, most of this stuff we do, is mainly to break up boredom. For instance all those morphs you breed, they are boredom breakers. But when you produce anyone of those morphs in number, you will again be bored. So you make or buy another morph. They do not have to be prettier or nicer, they just have to not be boring. You can sell new things better, because they are new, not better. This whole market of morphs is based on boredom. Produce something to take the boredom away. Mainly because the method of keeping is BORING.

So you keep them with a protocal of efficiency, little boxes, sterlite, etc, to mimic a labortory. Think about this sir. Overall, this is boring and produces boredom.

Yet those snakes in your cages, all possess the ability to not be boring. They are no more then a bag of behaviors that is massive and complicated, entertaining, curious, fun, and scary. Which means, they are not boring. They are a never ending bag of entertainment.

Now whats so funny is, if it wasn't for that old paradign of our own human behaviors(so and so does it this way), we would understand, we could just as easily do both, production and entertainment, and not be bored. How cool is that????????? you don't even need new snakes, you can keep expressing new behaviors from the ones you got. Instead of constantly switching snake types around to not be bored, switch cage types around, its actually cheaper and self supporting. FR

Haven't you ever been out in the field with another herper and all of a sudden you heard a scream, AWWWWWWW I've been Pheromoned. hahahahahahahahaha and it stinks, AWWWWWWWWWWW. Pheromoned right in the eye, AWWWWWWWWWW
LOL Frank, good one....
I don't like to think I am grabbing at straws Frank. I have only been doing this a few years. I have come a long way and seem to be pretty good at getting what I want out of my animals. I have told you before I simply do not have the money or space to have the room of my dreams, for now that is... but in the future I just may.
I am also not at all bored with my snakes. Matter of factly I turn down offers all the time on really cool snakes, many times for very cheap if not free simply because I do not want a mountain of containers, I really want a room full of display caging. I am guitly of chasing the next new morph but the bottom line is I still work with the first pair of Corns I ever produced babies out of and really have no intention of getting rid of any of my snakes due to money or boredom. I love my animals, but I do want and need to make money off of them. I do not want to go into detail how and why I ended up where I am now but all I can say is I am happy being a "breeder"....it seems to have worked out. Please realize that even if I am not capapble of taking some of your advice now and using it to further enjoy this hobby I still enjoy talking about it. What I am trying to do is accumulate info to perhaps better conditions as best I can with the room, cages, and temps I have now so my snakes can do better. I have a few ideas some may feel are retarded.....but I will try them out in 06 anyway. I think many people are happy with the way they do things and what they get out of thier snakes, I am one of them. Still... I don't think this is the end of the line. I would like to try different things and it seems not many of us really want that. Why? I guess if it aint broke don't fix it? I am thinking more of it is not broken but an upgrade could not hurt...ya know?
Tom Stevens

Understand, we all do that, grab at straws, rationalize, paradigns, etc. Thats what humans do.

Also, I am not falling for that I don't have the money thing. Thats a really poor straw. You do not have to do all at once. In fact, that would be totally the wrong way to do something. Start with one cage, keep changing it around to express different behaviors. No one cage, that I know of, can express a wide varity hehaviors. One cage, how expensive is that? How much do you make a month, whats your house payment, you see, you have enough to make payments of,$$$$$$$$$, you sir could be driving this fine american cage. hahahahahahahahahaha

You do understand, snakes do not need you, not at all. Except when you put them in a box, then you have to do lots of stuff. But if you were smart, you would share(delegate)responsibility, like any good supervisor. Only with the snakes, you can delegate it to them. They already are expert of choosing temps(your not) they are expert at knowing when to breed(your not, your wife said so), Heck, they are expert at being snakes. All they need from you is to replace what you took away when you put them in captivity, their choices. You took it away, so give some back and make it easy on yourself.

It seems to me, you are thinking other ways are harder, nope, your way is the hardest. Its so because you took away all your help and are doing it yourself. You need help and they are in boxes waiting to help you. So use cages that allow them to help you.

Consider, each and every day of a wild snakes life is all about doing things, making choices, completing tasks. Kinda like your days(only different tasks) They decide where to go today, what temps, should I feed, breed, stay down, dang its windy, cloudy, sunny, dry, wet, etc. Its to hot, to cool, to cold, just right, preys plentiful, not plentiful, on and on. They do this each and every day, all without you. So I ask, why do you think you have to do everything. Remember, they have been doing it for thousands of years. In other words sir, what the heck are you thinking. Heck they deal with all manner of virus and bacteria and parasites and skunks(I've been squirted far to many times) They climb trees, rocks, bushes, etc, they go in crevices, holes, etc etc, they know when to do those things in all seasons, they know not to build their buildings below sea level(hmmmmmmmmmm people could learn from them) Or to not make permanent homes in the bottom of a dry wash, because the word dry, is not always present, again people could learn from that. Get the picture. They are expert at being them, they only need a little tiny bit of help from you, SO WHY ARE YOU DOING EVERYTHING. hahahahahahahahahahahaha more to think about hey? FR

Our discussions will not go waste Frank. I agree, diving in head first and spending a ton of money is a bad idea when it comes to breeding snakes. This is why I gradually accumulated all I have over the course of 6 years and change things to accomodate them better every year.
I also know what you are saying about starting with one cage. I intend to work on this after my snakes are cooling and out of thier large cages. I will not be posting pics of what I create on here, but I will email you and my friends off the forum so you can see what I am up too.
One of the problems I face is my snake room is in my garage and I live in Texas so regulating temps is just not that easy. You may recall I insulated my room this year which changed a lot of things for the better and a few things for worse. All in all I feel I am getting there.... I see many people who buy more and more snakes without realizing they are going to burn out. I have a collection I have always wanted, and it cost me. However now that I am done buying snakes I can work towards a better room with better cages and more stable conditions. All in time my friend ttyl and thanks for all the replies Tom Stevens