Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I noticed that several of the larger breeders are holding their prices on Pastels $700 to $1200 m and $1500 to $2k f, Pieds are $7 to &8k, Spiders $4 to $5k.

It will be interesting to see when they are forced to break? There is undeniable softening going on in the levels below them, there will come a point when they will be forced to cut their losses now or take a bath later.

Just my opinion, my apologies to those who only like the rose-colored observations.

Alan

When people stop paying extra bucks for quality animals and original bloodlines.

I think people fail to realize that the "big boys" don't have an investment to make back, and they don't have to make a profit to convince their wives that they made a good purchase. They're in it for the long haul, and they can ask whatever they want.

I don't think you'll see any "break" for a long time. If you want to pay 4-500 bucks for a pastel male that looks like a high gold straight out of africa, go for it... The smart ones will start selective breeding and keeping the quality (and prices) high.

If you see a Pied male for $4k from Joe loves a snake and one for $8k from Big Boy central...how can you tell which is better?

They can have the same lineage.

Alan

If Joe loves his snake truly loves his snakes and I can get a guarantee that it will be feeding solidly, won't show up on my doorstep packed improperly, won't have an RI when shipped, and that if something goes wrong he'll be there to help... then maybe I'll pick Joe's pied.

Some Joes are better than others, and for 4 grand, I may just spend double my money to make sure I'm getting what I paid for.

Good luck.

I see with the 50% drop in the last month on Pastels, many others share that viewpoint also.

Let me know when you want to spend double on a pied, because I am willing to buy 2 from Joe @ 4k and keep one for my self and sell the other to you just in case you have problems.

I have a "high end" boa that I purchased from one of the BIGGEST names in boas, and he was a puker for the first 3-4 months I had him. When I contacted him, I basically got a "let me know how it goes" reply. I still have the snake, got him to quit puking and now he's just EXTREMELY small at around 200 grams and OVER a year old. He is fed properly, and I have 05' DUMERILS that have already outgrown this BCI. So, what went wrong? Spent the money, went with the "Big name" and got one big dud! I can see making the decision to pay 4000 to a nobody or 4500 to a "big name", but are you REALLY going to spend TWICE the amount just so you can name drop? If you ask around enough, you'll more than likely hear horror stories regarding some of the "big names" as everyone has problems, and when you increase the number of animals and customers, you only increase your chances of error. Also, with the morphs, most breeders had to buy from the big boys at one time, so your really dealing with the same line for the most part with whoever you buy from. That is to say...nobody has produced a lesser from two normals yet, so all the lessers at this point can be traced back to Ralph Davis. As far as prices though, the market would be much more stable if people would stop dumping prices. Why would you buy from a breeder that is dumping prices? Not only are they helping to ruin the market in general, but you know they're going to ruin YOUR investment as well...that you just made by purchasing from them! So, when you end up breeding your "invesment" animals, you can be cussing them for killing your profits, but remember it was cool when you were the buyer, but now when your the breeder what do you think of their prices??? Maybe I should sell all my snakes and go into rodents....someone has to feed all these high end morphs when they don't sell! Take care

Paul

Also, if they are not in it for money, only love, why do they have so many animals for sale to strangers?

Alan

As long as they don't sell any the prices can't go down. Right???? The problem will finally be solved, not the reducing of prices to what the market will bear, but the unfathomable act of "selling". I say no more selling until the price of pastels is back to 5K. Can we all agree on that!?!?!?!?!

I know, I know....It drives me crazy also!!!

Maybe everyone should stop buying a pastel male and a million females and flooding the market with pastel babies, recessives are the way to tell if someone is in the business for pure profit or, for the animals and the money just happens to be a perk, if you by pastels you can make a profit in your first year maybe second, but with albinos or pieds your looking at 2-4 years, anyone who has nothing but a pastel male or two and tons of females are the ones ruining the market, and they are the ones complaining about it, just let it be, it will balance out and eveything will be peachy, and the big breeders arent going to break on their prices, just like BMW wont break on theirs, it is a business and there is competition, stick to your guns and your snakes will sell for the price you want,
thanks
tony butler

Not every Joe Smoe can make a BMW, thats the difference. What the bigger breeders have, with a little cash and time, anyone can have.

Alan

I agree but they should use the time to hold their pastels and such until they get large they will sell and it will be more valueable the larger it is.
thanks
tony butle

See below.....

they wont break . why? because they are smarter than the average thats why they are were their at. they arnt dieng to sell their babies as soon as they hatch,they know that the bigger they are the more thier worth. So they dont mind selling the baby in a year for triple or just use it to breed and make even more their plan is to stay ahead of the game. dont get me wrong prices do go down . but at the same time the big guys collections just get better with newer morphs

I agree with you the larger outfits can hold out longer. However, they need to cover overhead also, and the larger you are the more overhead you have. Example: The Pastel market is becoming saturated, over the next year or two all these baby Pastels will grow and the adult market will be saturated as well. The price of adults has come down alot already. If you are a large outfit and you say to yourself, "I will hold all these Pastels for two years and then make more money then", can you be sure? Do you take that gamble? This is the risk they run....losing the window of oportunity on their product. This is a reality for Microsoft, IBM and for the biggest of the big snake breeder as well.

Alan

Overhead? The big guys are so ahead of the game they can cover their overhead by selling a single snake. The reality is that they don't NEED to sell for less. Most of them have other sources of income as well. They weren't stupid enough to take out a second mortgage for their hobby, hoping and praying they could produce enough babies or that prices didn't fall so low they couldn't pay it off. They have a product, and they believe its worth X number of dollars. Sure, once the patent is out, you can go buy generic, but I still see big drug companies making billions on their name brand product...

Prices may fall, but they will NEVER be selling at the same prices as Joe...

They will break, like a thin twig. Who knows when... most likely they keep posted prices high and sell them for low prices (I know Ralph says he doesnt, but thats a load). Some say they hold on to them and then sell them for more when they are bigger... thats the worst plan I have ever heard of, and heres why.... Last year you had a male pastel worth $5k... the big breeders say I wont sell it for $3500, I will hold on to it for a year and sell as an adult. This year what does a newborn pastel male go for? $1000 to $500. An adult male is worth MAYBE $3000. So now you fed that snake, changed its cage for a year so you could take a $500 loss on the bargin price... not only that, but last year using that $3500 you could have been raising a het pied female or what ever else you wanted... the point is you failed to free up that capital for reinvestment... you warehoused the snake all for no gain. I DARE anyone to show me 3 morphs that are worth more as an adult two years later than they where 2 years previous as a baby. You may find one or two, but pastels are NOT on of them. If you hold on to a pastel for more than a few months, you better have a reason other than money.

As for paying $6k for a snake when you could have gotten it from a small breeder/hobbiest for $4k, and you blame quality?! I can see if it was a het, and you wanted to be sure you know what you are getting (I have done it), but because of quality?! A fool and their money are soon parted. Thats like buying a crunch bar from WalMart insted of the gas station... its the same crunch bar! We arnt talking about used cars here.

Its like when the DOT.com bubble broke. All the big players that are still here today, Cisco comes to mind, did NOT say, "Let me hold on to these Widgets (routers) that I was selling for 25k a piece, that are now going for 5k. Maybe in 5 years they will be worth $25k again". What the players that are still players did was BLOW OUT inventory, cut overhead, and got back ahead of the curve. The larger snake outfits can get back out in front with newer morphs, they would be crazy to hold inventory on a declining product. THEY WILL BREAK!!!

Then that will be good because then the big breeders will have to go out and get real jobs

I personally agree with you all now that I have heard different opinions but I still think that the reason the market sucks is because people are overbreeding affordable codoms like pastels, I still think that the market will be strong for recessive like albino and pieds etc for a few years, and it will start to slip and it already has, but it has been very slow. I hope that the big guys dont break, and have to get real jobs, I have bought from big guys and like the quality that I get from people like VPI or Bob Clark. But I am glad that it doesnt effect me at all, this is not my source of income, it is a simple way for me to enlarge my collection with other reptiles, like monitors, and large pythons it is a way for the hobby to pay for itself,
thanks
tony butler

It's interesting that the word quality keeps popping up when discussing a purchase from either a big breeder or a little breeder.

There is no quality difference in the animals. They are all bred the same. They are all fed the same. They are all kept at the same temperatures. And they are all going to make little baby replicas one day.

The only difference is in the quality of service. This could be anything from a feeling of security when purchasing normal looking hets to a new source of information on the keeping and breeding of the animals.

And that is a very narrow viewpoint. There are many little breeder hobbyists in the community that are polite, honest, and willing to share a lifetime of knowledge, theories, and experiences. There are also some big breeders that are impolite, dishonest, and unwilling to share their own knowledge, theories, and experiences.

A good person is a good person. A bad person is a bad person. And the size of the collection doesn't matter at all.

Chris
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mean people suck

I agree that there are little guys that sell quality animals and size of collections doesn't matter but I have been burned may times when it comes to ball pythons, buying snakes that don't eat or captive bred balls that have ticks on them, lots of bad experiences, and have had even bought a pair of het pieds three years ago that never showed up and I have learned my lesson that if you feel insecure then dont buy, trust your gut, I have forked out alot of money and have a freezer with dead snakes in it that I have accumulated over the last few years, and there are too many people that are just here to make a dollar, but I do think that I would buy snakes from most of the people on this forum, and a few other hobbyists but only if they are willing to talk over the phone, can take a credit card over the phone and the entire purchase over the phone, I know that it doesnt make any sense but that is how I feel comfortable. When I sell animals I make sure that I talk to the person that is what I feel may make someone be able to trust me and know that they wont get burned. And you are right about the animals themselves they are all snakes, it is the quality of service that makes the difference
thanks
tony butler

Hello Chris,

First of all there will be a lot of good and bad points made in this thread. Everyone is entitled to their opinions and certainly their objections. Having said that... I agree that a smaller breeder can have the best customer service possible while in some instances either large or small breeders will not. To quote you... "Good is good and bad is bad" However I disagree with the "quality" statement as not all snakes are created equal.

All health issues aside... quality is not something to be taken for granted! I can't see the reasoning that buying the cheapest stock is the best course of action. We are in a business where the quality of our stock dictates our offspring. Sure... a cheap, unattractive Pastel Jungle WILL produce a nice animal at some point. It has been proven time and time again that a good start results in a good finish. Your odds of producing more HIGH QUALITY animals (with concerns to color not health) by breeding better stock is much better.

A small breeder can produce the same visually spectacular animals as a large breeder! That small breeder has to buy with the future in mind. I can tell you of an instance where I paid $15,000.00 for a snake that I could have gotten elsewhere for $10,000.00, of course the animals were not the same QUALITY! One was a very average animal that was perfect in every way except for its visual quality, the other was a holdback animal that a large breeder was willing to part with for that price! I couldn't be happier with my results from that more expensive animal. A friend of mine bought the less expensive animal and he hasn't gotten nearly the interest and compliments that I have. I can now use that adult animal to market its babies and generate more interest based on the lineage of the animal. In my opinion... this type of expenditure is just an advantage!

Unfortunately I can't post to all the angles of this whole thread. Someone mentioned Ball Pythons in another part of this thread in comparison to a Cisco computer component... Cisco creates all products equal to one another!

Let me say it now... All Ball Pythons are NOT created equal!

We need to ENCOURAGE the market not DISCOURAGE! Chris... you made a great point about service but I don't think we can say that quality doesn't matter as much. There are many wise buyers out there that wait for the perfect animal! Hell look at Green Tree Pythons, the normal generic animals are $350.00 but there are some BLOODLINES (not really morphs because they aren't simply inheritable, they are lineage based animals) that EASILY sell for $10,000.00!!

Thanks for the post Chris and no offense to your opinions!

Good luck people... I know I have no problem selling Ball Pythons... and Boas... and Corns... I'm just worried about where I am going to put my next projects!
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Sean Bradley
Owner : EbN
www.ExoticsByNature.com
www.BallPythonMorphs.com
www.BoaConstrictorMorphs.com
www.CornSnakeMorphs.com

And I think that I may have been a little too vague before.

I would never state that the cheapest animal is the same as the most expensive animal. The most expensive animal may have a unique marking or intensified coloring. This may be worth the increase in price. I agree.

What I meant to state is that the buyer should never purchase from a particular breeder simply because that breeder has a very large collection. This would be ridiculous. (Although it happens often.) The buyer should make a purchase based on two things -- the animal and the quality of customer service. (The price is not a factor. And neither is brand name.)

For instance, let's say that I wish to purchase an Albino. There are two Albinos on the market. The first Albino is average looking and was produced by Big Breeder Morphs Inc. The second Albino is a crazy looking Reduced Pattern Banded Albino and was produced by Little Apartment Reptiles. I happen to like the Reduced Pattern Banded animals, so I would purchase my Albino from Little Apartment Reptiles. (Pending a quick reputation check, of course.)

Chris
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mean people suck

Please do not interpret the above post as a pro-little-guy/anti-big-breeder commentary. I am not against or in favor of anyone in particular.

And I firmly believe that no matter who we choose to purchase from, we should still show respect to those big breeders who have shared their time, money, and years of experiences to bring us such a wonderful hobby.

Chris
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mean people suck

>>There is no quality difference in the animals. They are all bred the same. They are all fed the same. They are all kept at the same temperatures.

I have to politely disagree on a minor point. It seems when I got to shows the "little guys" have larger offspring. Why? They feed more. In the case of the "big boys" they have thousands if not tens of thousands of babies to feed. Cheaper to feed twicde a month.

Further, I have seen mites of $10,000 snakes at shows. But never have I seen this on a "little guy's" table.

Mites are too dangerous and too easy to get rid of. Why buy from someone that cares so little about their animals as to not eradicate mites?
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AMAZON REPTILE CENTER

NAMED BEST REPTILE STORE IN LOS ANGELES

I need to clarify more. (And I agree.)

No two animals are exactly the same. Some are average looking. Others are unique. Some are plump. Others are skinny. Some are healthy. Others are sickly. (And the examples go on and on.)

Plump animals are not found ONLY in the collections of little breeders. And skinny animals are not found ONLY in the collections of big breeders. Healthy animals are not limited ONLY to the collections of little breeders. And sickly animals are not limited ONLY to the collections of big breeders.

If you were to throw all of the little breeders (and their collections) into one room and all of the big breeders (and their collections) into a second room, BOTH rooms would each house a variety of average looking animals and unique animals, plump animals and skinny animals, and healthy animals and sickly animals.

ALL THINGS BEING EQUAL...

To make a purchase based ONLY on the size of a breeder's collection is a mistake.

Chris
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mean people suck

Breeding snakes can be a real job. It's a real industry that meets the real demand for snakes. Sometimes the prices aren't real but the high list prices just feed more production. The capitalist system is great at using high demand to fuel optimal production. Successful breeders work long hours and lay awake at night thinking of better ways to produce for a bigger share of the reward. Even with the best working hard it will take a long time before there are enough attractive morphs to go around at widely affordable prices. Like it or not the real job of the industry is to reproduce as many snakes as quick as possible. All this talk about limiting production is going against the nature of the beast. If a co-dom price falls twice as quick as a recessive but your production rate is four times as high it's still better deal. As long as you can sell above the incremental cost of production you will not loose money by producing more and I'm betting $500 pastels are still way above the cost of production. The limits on their production are the demand for normal females for even more profitable co-doms projects and the beginning of an inclining with some that $500 babies aren’t worth producing. I can’t argue with the first but if you are too lazy for the 2nd then I guess it isn’t a real job. It will be interesting to see where prices level off when production stops increasing due to the combined effect of more profitable alternatives and prices that are below what most want to ramp production for. Maybe $500, maybe a little lower.

IMO The big boys do nothing but good for the whole BP community, even if you are a little guy. If it wasnt for the time and money invested by them how many new morph's do you think we would see? They also are high profile all the higher end morphs I see, I usually get first look at on a big guys website or they post here. It's far easier to copy someone elses recipe for some new snake morph then to create your own. I know if I came up with a new morph recipe I would be reluctant to share, but for most of the snakes out there we know what(plus)what=(insert morph here). Most Big Guys can be found posting on kingsnake with the rest of us, offering sound advise freely. NERD has a new book coming out that Im sure has plenty of tips and tricks that a big guy could have kept to himself. Now before I become the least most popular person here I will say I havnt bought anything from any of the big breeders out there. Yet. I dont have anything agaist either the big or the small breeders instead I let the animals do the talking. You can be sure when looking for some normal looking hets it will be with someone who has a good rep and I can be resonably sure where to find them in 3 years. On the flip side a small breeder probably knows his animals better. When you have 20 vs. 1000 hatchlings the guy with 20 will know which is the friendliest etc. To make a long rant short if you are crying because you cant afford your favorite morph offer the small guy cash privately or invest in some hets and work your way up, if your crying because you cant make your investment pay for your new whatever just be glad snakes are more fun then enron stock, learn to have fun. Anyway just my opinion and you know what they say about those.
Thanks, Jay
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Find a job you love, and you will never work a day in your life -Confucious
3.20 ball pythons
1.1 dumeril boas
0.0.1 pixie frog
1.1 dogs
0.2 cats
more fish than I can list.

The "Big Boys" have done what each and every one of you people would have done if you had the chance.. I'm 22yrs old so hypothetically, the only way to become a "Big Boy" for me is to have LOTS OF $$$! The other way to become a "Big Boy" doesn't require much cash, just a little knowledge of keeping snakes, reinvesting, staying determined and being around from the start, which is why most of the "Big Boys" are what they are.. They were PIONEERS!! Of course it's easy to buy a $100,000 new morph if you've got the extra money laying around.. What's the big deal?? In the process of doing a "Public service" of introducing a new morph, they are gonna make a million bux off that snake... If they don't, think they care?? NOPE, because they have already made millions and 100k is a drop in the bucket.. There are plenty people around today that if given the chance, could do just as well as the "Big Boys".. It's kind of like being born into a rich family, some people just get lucky... I hold everyone at equal levels, big or small breeders, some people suck, some people don't.. Just because you came out with "Amazing Intergalactic Ultra-ray ball" doesn't make you a good or bad person, just means you had the oppurtinity to get it first... Good luck with all your stuff everyone!!!
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Joe Lydon

np
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Isn't it cooler that serpent's don't walk anymore?
(Genesis 3:14)

Big Boys Break...that is funny.

You think that breeders will break. No they won't. They have just learned a lesson. The demand for ball pythons is 'out of this world', but almost everyone that you sell to will be you competition in a year or two. So if breeders raise prices, control how much they sell, and who they sell to.....the price will stay much more consistant for much longer.

That concept may not work for pastels and mojaves because too many are 'on the market'. However, any new codom/dom morph that is out there....you will see much more control by the breeders. They will produce less, sell less, and sell for higher costs. That way they will protect themselves against people that treat ball pythons like a get quick rich plan.

For people that do this as a hobby, how can you be 'worried about the market'? If you are worried about the market, you are in this for the money. The only people that really need to 'worry about the market' are the people that do this for a living. How many of people that responded to the intial post breed ONLY ball pythons for a living? If you dont, what are you worried about?

I keep reptiles as a hobby. I keep them because they allow me to 'not worry' about crap like markets. I will buy what I can afford...and I will breed the animals that I like just because it gives me something to do. If I have sell any of the offspring(I would rather trade for different herps), I will sell them for no less than what they are worth because that is the way things should be done. Other than that I will enjoy the animals....cause that is the ONLY reason I keep them

Ha ha.....I can not believe that I just contributed to one of these 'the sky is falling' posts...

"That concept may not work for pastels and mojaves because too many are 'on the market'. However, any new codom/dom morph that is out there....you will see much more control by the breeders. They will produce less, sell less, and sell for higher costs. That way they will protect themselves against people that treat ball pythons like a get quick rich plan."

Sure the first breeder controls the price they will accept to sell their competitors tickets to that morph ride. The first hand full of breeders can even pressure each other to set a price. But if they are reproducing, eventually they will run out of club members to sell to and all morphs will get to the point where there are too many animals in too many breeder’s hands for control. The higher the initial price the more irresistible the urge to produce. The longer the high artificial early price is maintained the bigger the fall when control is eventually lost and free market pricing takes over. Price fixing, like non-disclosure of line problems, just passes the cost of the eventual price drop on to more and smaller breeders. Earlier free market pricing and information flow provides the best chance for an even and steady drop where the producers all have a good chance for success.

A million plus a year for the "Big Boys"...........the ball python is the hottest morph market there is......hmmmmm.........that's a tuff one ( glad I started early).

The "Big Boys" are learning from the "little boys" every season...........and that is to think things further before releasing new projects........after-all......isn't it the BIG BOYS who are funded to do these things for the "little boys"?.......

I've personally laid out $500,000.00 on bringing in new morphs to my collection in order to make money........so shoot me!!

Some people got a "free pass" on a few morphs that may have been a little underrated or misunderstood........that will not be seen as often if ever again.......

Fortunately the "BIG BOYS" are very few...........the way it's been for 8 years now...........and they are going NO WHERE but to the top!!!.......nothing has changed............we are just making lots more money!!

Watch out for the "second wave".........cause you ain't seen nothin' yet!!......show me a "new" BIG BOY???..........show me one please........just one!!!!

The BIG BOYS ROCK.............and will keep on ROCKIN'.........why not show some appreciation for what we do and stop worrying about how much money we make?

Prices come down..............who cares.........the BIG BOY is three years in the future by that time........I'm sick of fighting the prices...........I only fought them for the little guy......you little guys can keep pissin' and cryin' about the market and the money until the cows come home..........it still ain't gonna keep any of the top breeders from selling their snakes........the gap between the BIG BOY and the little guy is HUGE........nobody should fear the BIG BOY at all......

And to the twit who says holding morphs till they get older is a bad thing to do ( sell )............LMAO.........maybe a few of my customers who bought very expensive older snakes will chime in.........KACHINGGGGGG..............BAM!!..........all the way to the bank baby!!!

hmmmmm.............what snake is not worth more as a two year old??...........a normal male?.........I feel awful for the poor guy who paid 5k each for yearling Pastel females...........but I wanted to keep them.......he paid me to forget I wanted to keep them.........

I'm out.........

And don't put this rant in that shabby "week in review" thingy.......(j/k)

I think I've said this before........but some of you BONERS are new.........yep...........I'm off to count my millions........hehehehe

Yeah I know the slams and flames are on their way.......it still won't change the fact that I get thousands of hits a week and sell snakes for lots and lots of money..........it's damn good to be KING!!!...........people are begging me to get the journal fired up again...........maybe I should pull a "Hulk Hoagn" and "switch sides" for awhile???

ROCK ON ya BONERS!!!.........and to the "BIG BOYS"..........NERD, Kahl, VPI, TSK, BHB, Bells, Graziani and Clark.........let me know when you guys want to "break".........I figure if we all do it on the same day we can take out the BP world in one fast swoop!!!.............see ya in the soup line.........
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Rock On!!!

Well it's not that simple, first you need a Nitrogen cooler to freeze any snake, lets say bumble bee for this project. Now you need an expert cloning device and expert scientist skilled at cloning live animals. You would need to defrost the bumble bee, and make clones and clones of it. Market it as, "adult bumble bee" (assuming your cloning adults because they are worth more) and youve made roughly a 20th of the money needed to pay for the experiment

That's great, you've made multiple millions of dollars!!! YIPEE!! Anyone can do it in this business, as long as you have the cash to start up with... Will they ever get to the top like you are?? Probly not, but that's just clout... Who needs that when they're makin a few hundred thousand every year from your scraps?? [bleep], more power to ya if you're makin millions.. Nobody said that was wrong, I just said anyone could have done what you have done given the right circumstances... So how much of the $500,000 out of personal pocket and how much was reinvestment money?? I'd bet 90% was reinvestment.. You weren't always on TOP, MANY were MILES ahead of you when you started... But you were SMART, started out with a good chunk of cash and reinvested, snake money COMPOUNDS itself at any level of the game! DUH You've just been in it longer investment wise than most.. Good luck with your stuff, though you don't need it?? Looking forward to some cool things coming out of you... Try and find some more damn pattern morphs, colors are getting old..
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Joe Lydon

made a market and established the market. They have spent time, effort, money and years building a market. 6 years ago the same thoughts about the market and where the market would be in the future were being said and now the same things are said but what is really funny about that is when you look at who saw the big picture and who didn’t you can tell who was wise and who was not. If you are in for the long haul instead of the gimmicky quick approach then you can achieve results of success. Most small business ventures take at least two years of time, effort, investment and determination to make it pay off. If you do not have the above mentioned qualities then you are already looking with tunnel vision. Ralph knows that you put in what you get back. Let’s also keep in mind the animals themselves. If you are not a true caretaker of the animals then you have selected the wrong task for the wrong reasons. Look at the amazing people on the forum who produce awesome animals and who give advice and effort to share what they know. If you need proof that the market is making a profit just look at the results of the great animals that are posted on the forum each week.

Let's consider that perhaps everyone does not have the same market? If you produce animals worth 25k each why would you assume you have a market? Just because you post classifieds for your animals does not mean you have built or established a market. I realize that your animals are just a good as anyone else’s to you but who are you to the market? Have you built a client base and a reputation that has established your name with high quality animals and high quality service to your clients? Have you advertised “not classifieds” but advertised who you are and what you are doing as a breeder? McDonalds has a client base and they are not the same as fine restaurants but they have a client that they cater to. They are not even attempting to establish a client who would come to their fast food places looking for a fine dining experience. They are very content and more than pleased with the clients they have attracted to their food. If you are trying to sell a 25k animal more than likely if you are having trouble doing so it might be your lack of marketing yourself and not the “market”. Ralph did not have a reputation immediately but instead it took years and a lot of clients one at a time to establish his reputation. Your market at first might be in the $250.00 to $2000.00 range ‘just as example”. This market might make your client base better and then after some time if you are honest and a respected breeder you might be able to sell your more expensive animals more easily. That would be more your market. You could of course sell whatever your clients want that you offer. Do you actually think that the “big boys” satisfy the entire market each year? They do not. They can not produce enough animals to do that. That of course means that the gap that they do not fill is open. It is a big gap believe it or not. You might be the best breeder and you might produce the most impressive animals but if you have a lousy reputation or no reputation and you are not known because you do not want to advertise who you are then you are your own bad market. The concept of competing with the “big boys” is an odd concept because why are you needing to compete? They compete with each other and they supply the small breeders with great animals. The smaller breeders have the advantage of not having to be scrutinized by everyone all the time for everything they do. The "big boys" also import and establish at a great expense animals that we purchase for our collections. We believe only what we choose to believe and if you think that you are at a disadvantage because of the “big boys” then you have psyched yourself out of the abstract so called market.
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Kyle Stevens

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Royal Variations

Many a false step is made from standing still.

But all the marketing of yourself, building a good rep, and giving good customer service means nothing if you don't have the $$$$ to start up.. I only mentioned that start up money is KEY to being successful. Everything you mentioned is a standard to any business, hard work, good attitude, TIME and patience... Good post by the way..
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Joe Lydon

Reminds me of something my dad used to say every time I took $20 to the bar to play pool with It takes money to make money.

Quig

Wow, I didn't know Big Boys talked that way! It's amazing the things we learn on this forum these days! :-p
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Peace-
Kelli Hammack
H.I.S.S.
email me

This is ironically from my assignment from my MBA and thought it would be relevent to this continued discussion:

Question: Aren’t you condemning yourself to perpetually poor profits by creating an industry environment where price-cutting is the competitive tactic of choice?

Answer: Yes, depending on the level of price-cutting. The more effective means to improve competitive business is by developing an USP-Unique Selling Proposition where you differentiate your product from others. This can be achieved by offering product features not provided for by your competition or extended warrantees, etc. This of course will be dependent on the ease of entry into the marketplace and the amount of capital (financial and other) needed to create marketable products.

People entering into this morph market forget that return is measured in years not months or even days. The animals you acquire and keep to breed will continue to provide return for YEARS. What legal industry offers the opportunity to recoup your initial investment back in say 2-4years? Let alone create cash flow several times over. Do you think it is by coincidence the morph market was written up in Forbes? Hey, even bean counters like me can breed pythons.

Here is a quick lesson for anyone interested:
What is the annual rate of return on a $800 pastel male (hatchling) if bred to 4 females in say two years? Assuming 50% m/f and 50% pastel/normal priced below market at $400 for males and $800 for females? Assuming feeding and care of all until the end of year 3. The result is 127.7%! Try and get that anywhere else. Say at 200/400?....81.6% All just after year three and not including future income.

What you are a pessimist? How about het albinoxhet albino and five year return (slow growers...) with 1.1 albinos and 3.3 66%hets.....46.6% ANNUAL return!

Its good to be an ACCOUNTANT!

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Support your local herp society
www.chicagoherp.org

I was thinking this Friday, or possibly Monday to give me the extra time to get things in order. I can see it already happening around me......the first change was in the trees - they started losing their leaves and I think they may be dying.... this is an OMEN to things to come...

I did notice a few cracks in my new building that may also indicate this break. I don't know what kind of job I'll have to find when "it" happens. I was born, grew for a few years and then was released into the African Savannahs where I lived with the Ball Pythons and they trained me to hunt and shed on my own. I have that part down. Even now, every 27 or 28 days I shed and BAM a new larger me! As a ball python I was worried about long term investment so I decided to break the chain and leave the tunnels and capture as many of my fellow snakes and sell them into slavery. With this money I hunted down as many mutations as possible and forced them into production. I was sure that the future was limitless until I saw the tell-tale signs of the LOOMING "break". I had this Lemon Pastel I was trying to sell for $1,700.00 and I was sweating it because it seemed like days before it finally sold.... I think it was 2, NO, in fact 3 FULL DAYS and I had to drop down the price..... What was happening...why...why? I actually had to give the guy free shipping....I should of known when this was happening...but I ignored the signs?? I actually can blame this in the poor to little education I received in the African Savannahs...

I have been utterly clueless to the big picture and now I understand what is becoming.....

As far as "taking a Bath" I generally shower but the thought of an occasional "bath" does not seem as bad as you make it sound. You also seem to indicate a great length of time between sessions of personal hygiene... I believe there are some people that may even take "a bath" on a daily basis.

Cut our losses.....

One thing you may be forgetting is that many of us "Big Boy's" love our snakes and love to have them and enjoy them. I see some of what you are saying but I don't think it is enough to destroy us. I also think we have had a major bump in the economy with a possible recession looming and that can hurt any of the big spenders out there.

Now back to the nonsense....

-When the break happens what will actually break?

-Will my insurance cover the things that have broken?

-The footings of my building were intended to handle moderate earthquakes, will my building make it through all of this breaking or should i just try to get out before it is completely broken.

-Has anyone seen the other "big boys" breaking or am I alone here? They need to KNOW....we must warn them! Does anyone know Tom Crutchfield's email addy?

-What kind of world will employ us talentless big boy breeders?

-How will this help ME cook a better hamburger.

Kev@NERD

>>I noticed that several of the larger breeders are holding their prices on Pastels $700 to $1200 m and $1500 to $2k f, Pieds are $7 to &8k, Spiders $4 to $5k.
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>>It will be interesting to see when they are forced to break? There is undeniable softening going on in the levels below them, there will come a point when they will be forced to cut their losses now or take a bath later.
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>>Just my opinion, my apologies to those who only like the rose-colored observations.
>>
>>Alan
>>

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www.newenglandreptile.com

n/p

As the future looks so terrible I want you all to know you can all work here at Chicago Reptile House catching crickets and running them up to the register for me. I hope that this little bit of compassion I am giving you will make you all sleep better with the end of the Ball World so close at hand.....I am here for you......you foolish Ball investors.......why didnt you listen to me and invest in Hermit Crab stores?????

Brian Potter
NARBC
Chicago Reptile House
Link

There are many things that go into the ball python world that not many people know or will ever realize. For starters MANY , of the "big boys" take much pride in there investments. Some say (not all) that they are in it for the money, but trust me you cant get big with out the love for the animal. i have seen many facilities and MANY if not all big breeders take joy in working with there animals, and thre quality and reputations are a reflection of there hard works. Also many have no idea about the "politics" behind the trade. Being a big breeder is no easy task. As for the maket, every morph will eventually come down, that much is inevitable. Only now instead of breeding and producing 50 pastels to make a living you need to produce 400. (u get the idea)But there will always be some new designer or base morph, and that will keep newbies intrigued and breeders continouslly interested, the ball python wold is big, and there is much room for all the big breeders and the small ones alike. Oh and of corse we cant foget the balls, plenty of room for them too ..So come on in.

Speaking as not even a "little boy". (Yet a baby).
I appreciate the "Big Boys" holding their prices. What's wrong with that? I really don't understand why that's a problem.

It's great to have a solid foundation placed here and there in this business. Imagine buying whichever morph, as a baby, from the originator of that morph, waiting 2 years to be able to produce and then seeing your supplier of that morph dropping the price all of a sudden.

I was told personally, by one of the biggest names, that he has a policy of keeping prices solid for as long as he can out of respect to his customer. I love that.

Having said that, I feel it's now my job to respect them by trying to keep my price on that morph as close to them as possible.

In the end, it's their snakes and they can price them how they want. If the Big Boys suddenly dropped all their prices, we would complain about that then, wouldn't we?

If someone has a better price on an exact animal, then great for the buyer.

Troy Dozier

Breeding lots of snakes takes money. You make a lot...you spend a lot. You take losses, you do well. For the most part, the little guy can sell cheaper, he doesn't have the overhead. The Big Boys sell for more, have bigger expenses. NONE of the big boys do it just for the money. Is it a shame to make a lot of money doing this? NO. Is it a shame to try to make some extra bucks to supplement your day job? NO. Prices will rise and fall on various morphs....that's normal. The real neat ones will command big bucks, the ordinary ones will not. Some will slip in time....others will take there place. Hats off to Ralph, Kevin, Pete, (was it really 20 years ago I sold Pete Kahl a pair of Dumerils??) et al, for doing what they do.
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1.1 Blackheaded pythons
1.1 Woma (Juvie female)
2.1 Aussie Olives
1.1 Timors
1.0 Angolan Juvie
1.1 Savu
1.1 Juvie Bloods
1.1 Juvie Balls
1.1 IJ Carpets
1.1 Coastal Carpets
1.2 Macklotts
1.1 Papuan Olives
1.0 Jungle Carpet
2.2 Scrubs (on breeding loan)
0.1 Jungle/Diamond cross
0.1 child, CB
0.1 wife, WC