Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hi all. I was wondering if my little res was growing too fast for his own good.. He is this years baby, but do not have date of birth..

All is going well, but he/it has grown quite a bit in the 2 months I have had him. I got him 9/17 and he was 1.75 inches; Today he is 2.35 inches.. Is that too fast for a hatchling??

He is a little pig when it comes to food.. So I have cut down on how much I give him. I feed Zoomed hatchling food along with red-wigglers, live crickets, and feeder guppies(he finally learned how to catch them). There is also live plants in tank which he nibbles on..but like all little kids, doesnt like his veggies..lol

I do not wish to speed up growth or anything..but dont want to slow it down either. But at this rate he will be in an adult tank by years end..

Any thoughts??

Harpy
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Have You Hugged Your Herp Today?

It might be ok. It sounds like he was already pretty big when you got him. My hatchling was a little smaller than a quarter. She only grew about an inch in the first year, but after that it picked up quite a bit. In 6 months she has grown another inch. They all kind of grow at different rates. Just make sure you are not feeding her too much protien. Sounds like you have a pretty good diet set up!
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TurtsandTorts Discussion Group
3 Russians (Harley, Marley, and Freckles)
2 RES (Sunny and Fatty)
2 Gerbils (Sydney and Vienna)
1 Cat (Abby)
1 Dog (Polly)

It is a little fast. They should grow roughly 1-1.5 inches per year. So it really isn't super fast. How often do you feed him?

there really isnt a "supposed to grow" speed. i have had a few hit 4 inches their first year with no shell problems or deficiencies of any kind. as long as they are getting all the nutrients they need to grow that fast it shouldnt be a problem. that means enough calium, vitamin D3/UVB, that kind of stuff. too much protein would cause pyramiding of the shell. so you will know if he is getting too much of that. if he is pyramiding, just cut back on live foods (which shouldnt be provided in my opinion anyways, but thats a different subject) and/or get low protein turtle pellets. they have to grow fast their first year since in the wild that is the age that most are eaten. if they grow faster, predators have less of a chance of eating them.

Not actually. In the longrun continued rapid growth will almost always lead to some sort of deformity or health problems. I see it all too often in the hundreds of sliders that I get in. I have seen 8-10 inch long sliders that are just two years old. They are almost always morbidly obese and pyramiding.

Again approximately 1-1.5 inches per. A pinch more here or there is not a problem but 4 inches in one year is a bit accessive and if it continues you will most likely have turtles developing problems.

There is plenty of literature on this subject so I am certainly not speaking from just my personal experience.

Steve

that is true, but a good size the first year can in nature help to ensure avoidance of predation. improper diet is the main problem, with rapid growth as being something that brings it out. they can grow fast with no problems if the diet is right. im not disagreeing with you at all, im just saying in my opinion the problem is more in the diet than the growth.

In the wild they do not recieve the rich diet (like pelleted diets) and some of the other things that we feed them. They also must work for their food. They may not get all that much in a day and also have a free range to roam around in and burn off calories. They are highly unlikely to reach a size of 4 inches within thier first year. So many of them end up being food themselves.

If they do attain this size in nature (highly unlikely) it is on a natural diet not pellets.

I agree with you that I have seen one or two that grew very fast on mostly assorted pellet diet and some other treats on the side but that was out dozens and dozens that are grew fast and had pyramiding and obesity. Odds are most definitely stacked against a turtle growing at that rapid rate on such a rich diet.

In nature they normally would not grow to 4" in the first
year.

Linda

i think we debated this before. i still think the same things especially that they have to grow fast their first year in order to avoid predation.

Everything I have read indicated slow growth is best. I
am always willing to learn.

Thanks
Linda

i will try and look for it somewhere. what you said is right. slow growth is best, but i dont think fast growth is necessarily wrong. i think it is possible to do it safely, not that everyone should try it. now that it has come up again i am doing some better research on it and i will post whatever i find, even if i am wrong.

why would you want your turtles to grow so quickly? They
are not in the wild.

Linda

thats the thing, i believe they do in the wild. i think they have to get big fast for the reasons i already posted. i think the ones in the wild that grow the fastest may be the biggest and best breeders in the area once they are adults and mature. im not saying you cant have huge problems if you are trying to get that kind of growth, im saying it is not necessarily a bad thing that they are growing fast. i think if you are doing things right including tank size, lighitng, and a complete diet (which is a variety of pellets for me, but includes live food for others)and your turtle happens to grow fast in that setup, it is not necessarily a bad thing.

I think your research will lead you to a conclusion quite the opposite of your unfounded theory. In the wild turtles take many years to sexually mature. This is a documented fact. They also grow slowly. Look it up and you will see. They do not grow rapidly to adulthood in the wild. This one reason why so many species are threatened. They simply take too long to reach maturity AND many (such as the Asian species) face extinction because they cannot reproduce themselves fast enough and are being overharvested for food. Also they do not stand up to the environmental pressures put upon them.

A variety of pellets is not a diet that will achieve rapid healthy growth. AGAIN -- this is fact not an opinion. Virtually 100% of the pyramided overgrown animals I gotten in rehabbed and placed in homes were fed nothing but pellets with perhaps a little dried shrimp. No one who raises, breeds, keeps or studies turtles in any capacity would recommend such a diet and I caution anyone against thinking that this is the proper way to go.

There is lots of literature out there that will demonstrate your unfounded opinion is incorrect. An opinion is something you are entitled to but if you cannot back it up with facts then it should not be despensed as advice to other people trying to do the right thing.

When you find solid evidence or even YEARS of personal experience to back up your assertions you should THEN dispense them as advice to folks new to turtle keeping.

i never said anything about reaching sexual maturity. i said it is a good thing to get some size on them in the wild their first year. i dont recommend a one type of pellet diet, i think that is the worst thing you could do, maybe the only thing worse is nothing but goldfish. i recommend a varied pellet diet. mine currently have 5 types of food and i am getting more. i do keep and raise turtles and i recommend such a diet. and i have had water turtles for about 8 years now. i said i would research it and i am doing so. when i get to my conclusions, even if i am dead wrong, i will post my findings. and agian, i am not saying people should try to get this growth, i simply dont think it is necessarily a bad thing if a turtle happens to grow really fast.

Well I won't banty this point about pelleted diets back and forth with you. Varied pellets or not solid pellet diet is not good. At least I give you credit for one thing. You are do admit when you do your research and find out you are wrong.

I do believe you will find this to be the case.

Steve

im expecting it to be in the middle, not necessarily 4" the first year, but more than one or something like that. i think that most turtle diets have most of the nutrients necessary, so betweeen a few you should be able to get a complete diet. if they use an equivalent to the live foods you would use to make the pellets, isnt that just as good? it is processed, but its still there.

The "stuff" the put into most pellets aren't anywhere near what a turtle would eat in the wild.

Koi pellets are about as close as you can get to a "good pellet" for turtles. Certain pellet types targeted for reptiles are extremely poor for them. I don't use any "turtle pellets" rather I use a combination of aquaculture pellets (much more balanaced diet) and live foods.

well, all the turle foods seem to be self proclaimed best turtle food, with no need for other foods, and vet recommended. they cant all be the best, and of course they dont want you to buy other foods too, but i believe they are pretty good since i have raised many hatchlings on pellet only diets and they all did great. and actually one of the foods i feed now is a mix of reptomin and 2 koi pellets, so they are getting all the nutrients from those foods too. i know the ingredients are far from a concoction of natural foods, but i believe all the nutrients are there in one form or another.

I have discovered this thread on the home page of kingsnake and read it all the way through. reptileguy are you saying that if in the wild they had a constant food source that they could use when ever and consume however much they wanted, they would? If you are saying that i don't think you are wrong because a turtle will instinctually want to eat. What might be wrong is providing them with such a source because it doesn't happen naturally. That is the only problem with what you are saying. Yes a turtle would take advantage of it a perfect food source and probably grow alot but that doesn't happen often(if it all) so they are not built for it. What the species is used to and what most wild species are used to is foraging and hunting two things that don't have consistent pay offs. It's like because the species is built and used to slow growth you can't expect it to know how to deal with rapid growth. It is likely that something unexpected will come up.

Now maybe this doesn't make sense i've been sick the last couple days and i just woke up and am groggy. And i don't actually own turtles so you could write this off but what i have said above is what i have learned through bio classes and just logic.

In conclusion yes an individual turtle given the chance will grow and be huge but the species isn't set up. Therefore as a general note rapid growth should throw up a warning sign to rethink ones offered diet and the true nature of the species in mind. Any way i hope this cleared stuff up probably didn't so i will just go away now.
Quey
p.s. I do know snakes and powerfeeding(rapid growth) snakes only leds to obesity and a short lifespan.

on a subject like this all input is great, so thank you. i think your point is a very good one. but perhaps in the wild they could, but the availability of food is the limiting factor. an individual in the wild who is great at finding and catching food may be the ONE that has excelled growth rate. that individual could grow up to be a huge great breeder. i do not think 4" /yr the first year should be expected or strived for. i do think if it starts to happen you need to reconsider your diet and setup to ensure the best health of your turtle. it seems most would begin to limit food intake. i would keep a close eye out for pyramiding, softshell, obesity, and other things that have an increased probability of occurance with such growth. i do not believe that rapid growth is a guarantee of any of those or necessarily a bad thing. i think it simply increases the likelihood of any of those, requiring a reconsideration of diet and such.

I absolutely agree with you!

Katy

I meant that I agree with you. What you said abou turtle growing is true. There are so many turtles(usually RES)which are overgrown with health problems and bad looking.Poor turtles.

1-1.5" a year is safe growth. This was my turtles growth
rate. I also have a new hatchling southern painted and
I am aiming for this rate of growth for him as well.

Linda

I feed this turtle something every day.. But I have started to count out the pellets or insect. Usually it is like 5 pellets or worms, or 2 large crickets.. I only give insects twice a week..they have been gut loaded and dusted (I dust night before so crickets will lick off calcium..still in gut).

I have been offering small pieces of romaine, but this little guy wants nothing to do with that..

QUESTION:

The pellets I use(Flukers hatchling) are different colors, are the colors just for looks or are they different foods..green for veggies, red for fish, etc.???

Harpy
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Have You Hugged Your Herp Today?

Sallie,
you are feeding small hatchling with large crickets??

My trio has different grwoth rates. The eldest is almost a year old, has grown twice his hatchling size, and already has long claws on his forelimbs. The other two are almost the same, slightly bigger than when they were hatched (both are 1/2 the size of the eldset, and the difference between the time the eldest and the 2nd hatched is about 5 days, then, the 3rd was the day after that, yet, the 2nd and the 3rd are almost the same size).

They also shun veggies, feed em earthworms, crix (all are willing to wrestle a cricket, big/small), pellets, dried shrimp, fish feed, life feeder fish & feeder shrimp, freeze dried tubifex meallies on rare occasions.

I think it maybe depends on the pets diet, no competition (unlike in the wild) in captivity, & perhaps also the RES quarters? (if its to small/not, how deep is the water, etc)
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My "babies" :
1.0.0 Indo BTS (Tiliqua gigas gigas)
0.0.1 Rainbow skinks (Mabuya multifasciata)
1.0.2 RES (Trachemys scripta elegans)
0.0.3 Amboina box turtles (Cuora amboinensis)
1.0.0 Chinese softshell (Trionyx sinensis)
1.0.0 Asian leaf turtle (Cyclemys dentata)
1.0.0 Leopard gecko (Eublepharis macularius)
And still growing...

It is more the diet and temperatures that affect the growth. A slider kept in a small container will grow just as fast as one kept in a larger one if provided with the same temps and food supply. The one in more contained environment will most likely be less active and more obese though.

small tanks can cause curving up of the edges of the shell. and some individuals will genetically grow slower. i think a small tank could stunt their growth, but it wont always.

How can a small tank "genetically" stunt their growth? Where do you get these things from? Being in a small tank will NOT stop their growth at all. They can certainly get deformed if their shell touches both sides of the tank and it continues to grow. But they will not be stunted by being in a small tank.
Genetically means from the genes.

Are you trying to say that their is a small tank stunting gene in some sliders? Ridiculous!!

no, i didnt mean the two are connected, i just re-read it and i didnt explain it right. genetically some individuals are slower growers. on a separate note, too small of a tank can stunt their growth, i have seen it multiple times. too small of a tank, even if their shell isnt actually touching both sides, can cause curving up of the edge of the shell.

Oh Okay. LOL! Didn't make sense. Sounded like you were describing a genetic condition related to tank size.

>>I think it maybe depends on the pets diet, no competition (unlike in the wild) in captivity, & perhaps also the RES quarters? (if its to small/not, how deep is the water, etc)

He(she) is only in a 10 gal right now, the turtle was a very unexpected rescue.. He will get upgraded to a 20 long in a week or two..Might even put him in a 30..since he is growing so fast.

the water is 2/3 full with turtle ramp.. Good tetra filter, uv and heat lamp on good cycle..several bunches of live plants as well. Using cuttlebone for calcium, but not having much luck with it. I made up a calcuim spray that I spray onto live crickets, and them refridgerate them..Puts them into a hibernation mode. I can then hand feed the crickets to the turtle.. And make sure he gets his vities...

Harpy
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Have You Hugged Your Herp Today?