Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hello all!

For those of you who tirelessly poke at the "Big Kids" (notice, I didn't say "boys," Tracy!). I'm curious what your contribution to our world has been:

Did you work tirelessly over years or decades to learn how to keep and breed an endangered species so it would not be obliterated?

Did you go to Africa and conduct the survey that proved that balls could be sucessfully harvested without endangering the wild population?

Were you the first one to use plastic tubs and a rack system to keep your snakes?

Are you the one that tested the treatments we use today for mouth rot, RI, etc.? How many animals did you lose figuring out the best treatment?

Have you risked hundreds of thousands of dollars of your own money to bring beautiful unproven morphs to the US?

Have you made all the details of your successful breeding program public so that even your biggest detractors can have great success in breeding their animals (if they are smart enough to listen to you)?

Have you spent thousands of hours a year helping hundreds of folks struggle through "my ball won't eat" - folks that will probably never purchase an animal from you?

Were you the one who figured out the best temperature at which to incubate ball eggs? Or, were you the one who figured out how to keep their humidity at proper levels?

Do you spearhead educational programs to help the general public understand and appreciate herps?

Have you deveoped antivenin that saves lives?

To me, the big kids and old timers that pioneered in a hundred ways like the ones above deserve our thanks, not our judgement. They are not perfect, that's a given, but I hope they make great money at this for a long time.

As for me, I know what I have contributed to this industry - a few more pastels. What would you all have done WITHOUT ME?!?!?! LOL!

To those who seem to joy in putting down RDR, SK, VPI, NERD etc, maybe you ought to think about making some contribution other than sarcasm and cynicism to this hobby. In the end that's not much of a legacy.

Christy

I have to agree that the "pot shots" taken at the well known breeders has tainted what I feel were very valid discussion points, Market Issues: Pricing, Long Term Viability, Etc.

So maybe we can add one more subforum.............

"Reasons I hate people who have succeeded in the Reptile Breeding Business"

Of course, to a degree some of the "pot shots" were in response to some individuals attacking the people whom felt Market Issues were a topical and appropriate subject. I still think is detracted from good debate from both sides.

Let's face it, the reason the Ball Python business is what it is, BIG DOLLAR BUSINESS, isn't because of the love of ball pythons. It has predominantly been driven and grown by the interest in making money, which is great. I just find it amusing that no one wants to talk about THAT, and we all pretend it is more related to the love of BP's.

Question: How many breeders/enthuisists ( big kids/little kids) kept BP's prior to the morph phenom......................
Very few, they were basically kept ( barely alive) by novice keepers because they were cheap.

Lets stick to Market Issues, not personal attacks or just as bad the constant "ball python hero" worship.

Nothing wrong with talking about the market, agreed. In the end people are going to sell their snakes for exactly what they want to (or not sell them at all).

As far as "hero worship" - alot of sucking up goes on for sure and I have on more than one occasion been accused of doing that with Ralph. However, when I say something nice about Ralph (or anyone else who has helped me for that matter) the issues is gratitude. He's helped me and been a friend and I'm grateful. To me, that's not sucking up or hero worship. For me it's a matter of good character to give credit where it is due. If some people don't like that, so be it.

My best,

Christy

For the people that like to pee and groan about the big boys and girls in the industry that helped make all of this...

He talks about hero worship...as if it is going on all over the place?

Where?

I will attest to a simple truth. There were a few people that started making the ENTIRE BALL INDUSTRY. They saw something in the snake and worked with it. If they ignored ball pythons and aspired as many others did to things such as Black HEADED PYTHONS and rare species this forum may not even be discussing such things. Simple fact, weird new morphs were brought to market under the radar. It took time for people to stop and rethink ball pythons. The first real captive morph to the market was the Albino, people either liked it and got in line for their $7,500 snake or bought a used car. Then came the Ghost, I could not sell them for my asking price of $2K. That price was the price that I felt was reasonable to relinquish it from my collection. I worked hard at that project and was just learning how to breed ball pythons, there was a good chance it was not even genetic. Basically no one wanted my ghost ball pythons for $2k, they wanted to pay only $1,200. Eventually I sold a few and NO ONE wanted the Heterozygous animals, NO ONE! Then I made the Lemon Pastel Jungle, they were awesome, I wanted $2,500, No dice! Eventually I traded some for Star Tortoises which I then sold or kept. I was all excited about these Pastels and tried to excite other people and had mild result, I was told, "it's still a BALL PYTHON!". Indeed the Pastel was no $10K Black Headed Python! It was frustrating and there were only a few of us that were excited about ball python mutations. I brought them to shows to show them off and the internet opened doors for us to expose our creations. I worked HARD to excite other people about ball pythons because I was and will always be excited about mutations. I did not do this because I was chasing the big money, I did not even appreciate where the industry would go, I only had ideas. I told people the ball python would be the next cornsnake but better to breed since they are less prolific and there is so much potential mutation wise...... They should have listened way back when! The breeders that noticed the ball pythons in the early stages are what MADE this industry, they made the INTEREST! THEY MADE THE INTEREST! THEY MADE THE INTEREST! THEY MADE THE INTEREST! THEY MADE THE INTEREST! THEY MADE THE INTEREST! THEY MADE THE INTEREST! THEY MADE THE INTEREST!

Without the initial breeders working hard to reproduce these animals people may have overlooked ball pythons for longer than they did. Call it hero worhip, call it whatever but don't ignore the facts! Bob Clarks, VPI, The Peter Kahls, Snake Keeper, The Ralph MEGA RICH HUGE DRIVES A PHAT ASS SUPED OUT PIMPED DADDY WITH MONEY JINGLING IN THE TRUNK SIDES HIS HOUSE WITH 100 DOLLAR BILLS AND ALSO USES IT AS TP DAVIS and otheres invested their time and money when other people never looked twice at a ball python. NERD also fits in there with some colorful expression.... They made people stop and take notice, they brought it to this point and will continue to WOW people which in turn brings new blood into the community.

We earned the TARGETS ON OUR BACKS!!!!!

So lose yourself in a fluffy bubble bath of love for the people that diss and whine about the big boys and girls that think they are so great.......

Clean your melamine rack and wonder why we try to keep the market stable...

Don't do anything new that takes time, investment and hope....

Let the big boys do it all for you and then fight them from your Dell. Keep telling them they did nothing and you are tired when people notice them and their snakes. Try to justify ignoring their accomplishments so when the smoke clears maybe big boys can be ignored just like YOU!

NERD

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www.newenglandreptile.com

Without the initial breeders working hard to reproduce these animals people may have overlooked ball pythons for longer than they did. Call it hero worhip, call it whatever but don't ignore the facts! Bob Clarks, VPI, The Peter Kahls, Snake Keeper, The Ralph , Para Phase from Kevins above post EE

Hi Kevin, I can agree with what your saying to a point and think your right in some ways, But when asking the " where would we be question" lets give credit where credit is due to the original IMPORTERS. Crutchfield brought in the albino burm that Clark ended up with and that snake was to reptiles what the beatles were to music. That`s where "investment ideas about snakes really began".Before that guys were breeding stuff even screwing with morphs and dealing in reptiles was going on for years but up until then the thought of " investing in reptiles" wasn`t really an issue. The first ball python morph was the albino that again Bob Clark got. I`m pretty sure Joe Fausie brought it in. I wonder which one of the Big or Small " pioneers " would have gotten them out of Africa at that time if someone else didn`t do it for them? The original importers and dealers are the pioneers their the ones who took the chances and opened the doors with out the Chase, Tresser, The Van Nostrums, Crutchfield ,Molt ,Chapmans, etc, Would there be ? "The Big Guys"? I`m not sure any of them have that kind of "pioneer in them".

Ernie Eison

I do not view the importers as pioneers!

If they were pioneers then would have kept the animals themselves and bred them! They often paid little money and turned the animal over fast to make a decent profit. The breeder often shelled out the big loot and hoped and prayed. They took the chance, if the animal dies three days later TOUGH! The importers are far from being pioneers..... I do give them credit in being able to deal with some of their foreign contacts..... that can be a NIGHTMARE!!

We all get those emails praising ALA and asking for you to take their money and blah blah.... that kind of mentality promising to send you snakes can be HARD! For that, they win a GOLD RIBBON!

If Crutchfield kept the stuff and bred it then he would still be here today! He was very smart in many ways but he needed to change and be progressive within the industry.....

The Home Depot that sells you the wood is NOT the pioneer.....the Craftsman that makes something unique gets the CREDIT!

Kev

PS: Chapman still owes me MONEY FOR EMERALD TREE BOAS AND MANGROVE SNAKES!!!!!!!!!

>>Without the initial breeders working hard to reproduce these animals people may have overlooked ball pythons for longer than they did. Call it hero worhip, call it whatever but don't ignore the facts! Bob Clarks, VPI, The Peter Kahls, Snake Keeper, The Ralph , Para Phase from Kevins above post EE
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>>Hi Kevin, I can agree with what your saying to a point and think your right in some ways, But when asking the " where would we be question" lets give credit where credit is due to the original IMPORTERS. Crutchfield brought in the albino burm that Clark ended up with and that snake was to reptiles what the beatles were to music. That`s where "investment ideas about snakes really began".Before that guys were breeding stuff even screwing with morphs and dealing in reptiles was going on for years but up until then the thought of " investing in reptiles" wasn`t really an issue. The first ball python morph was the albino that again Bob Clark got. I`m pretty sure Joe Fausie brought it in. I wonder which one of the Big or Small " pioneers " would have gotten them out of Africa at that time if someone else didn`t do it for them? The original importers and dealers are the pioneers their the ones who took the chances and opened the doors with out the Chase, Tresser, The Van Nostrums, Crutchfield ,Molt ,Chapmans, etc, Would there be ? "The Big Guys"? I`m not sure any of them have that kind of "pioneer in them".
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>> Ernie Eison
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www.newenglandreptile.com

Again I think you make some points but ,

" The Home Depot that sells you the wood is NOT the pioneer.....the Craftsman that makes something unique gets the CREDIT! " Kev

But what I`m saying is If there`s no wood I guess then there`s no craftsman .And yes if Home Depot are the first to realize that`s there`s money in selling wood and they show the craftsman that you can make money selling wood products they are pioneers the craftsman are just benefiting from Home Depots ideas .The original importer /dealers are the ones who created the reptile business are the pioneers .They showed the other guys that you could sell reptiles . Everything else came about because of their efforts . No animals no breeders / no reptile business / no commercial reptile breeders.The breeder often shelled out the big loot and hoped and prayed. Yep and the importer just go`s to the bank making yet another killing is that how it works,Com`on two sides to every story and it go`s both ways. But that`s not what this is about.It`s about how it began .To me a pioneer is someone who breaks new ground ,doe`s it first and not someone who just expands on what already exist. If there weren`t the first importers/dealers their wouldn`t be python breeders but if there were no breeders there would still be importers. We already know that because long before their were python breeders there were importers /dealers . So in history who played the more important role? This isn`t the Chicken and the egg we have the answer . Ernie Eison

Ps I can`t believe you gave Chapman animals on the arm.

" If Crutchfield kept the stuff and bred it then he would still be here today! He was very smart in many ways but he needed to change and be progressive within the industry.....

No Doubt in the early days it was really power with out knowledge but because these didn`t cash in they way they could of dosen`t take away from what they STARTED so that those that came later could learn and cash in.

>>Again I think you make some points but ,
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>>" The Home Depot that sells you the wood is NOT the pioneer.....the Craftsman that makes something unique gets the CREDIT! " Kev
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>>But what I`m saying is If there`s no wood I guess then there`s no craftsman .And yes if Home Depot are the first to realize that`s there`s money in selling wood and they show the craftsman that you can make money selling wood products they are pioneers the craftsman are just benefiting from Home Depots ideas .The original importer /dealers are the ones who created the reptile business are the pioneers .They showed the other guys that you could sell reptiles . Everything else came about because of their efforts . No animals no breeders / no reptile business / no commercial reptile breeders.The breeder often shelled out the big loot and hoped and prayed. Yep and the importer just go`s to the bank making yet another killing is that how it works,Com`on two sides to every story and it go`s both ways. But that`s not what this is about.It`s about how it began .To me a pioneer is someone who breaks new ground ,doe`s it first and not someone who just expands on what already exist. If there weren`t the first importers/dealers their wouldn`t be python breeders but if there were no breeders there would still be importers. We already know that because long before their were python breeders there were importers /dealers . So in history who played the more important role? This isn`t the Chicken and the egg we have the answer . Ernie Eison
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>>Ps I can`t believe you gave Chapman animals on the arm.
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>>" If Crutchfield kept the stuff and bred it then he would still be here today! He was very smart in many ways but he needed to change and be progressive within the industry.....
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>>No Doubt in the early days it was really power with out knowledge but because these didn`t cash in they way they could of dosen`t take away from what they STARTED so that those that came later could learn and cash in.

Well, if you want to call them pioneers then so be it! They were not pioneers of keeping and breeding......if anyone was close to that I think it was Crutchfield. He had a good thing going and I ate up his price list and kept coming back for more. I remember meeting both Dave and Tracy Barker @ the first National Reptile Symposium and looking through their pictures. They were using rack systems and they kept EVERYTHING, they KNEW what they were doing and I was just plain clueless. That single meeting helped me focus and earn a great deal of knowledge. I aspired to such things, at the time no one seemed to be doing what they were doing. Everything they had seemed cutting edge and they were breeding snakes we had still never even touched. I was still in La La land, my snake keeping was novice, I had much to learn and they showed me a target. To me, that is more like the kind of things a PIONEER does. They lay the ground work for others to perpetuate, they create the excitement and need to do something. The importer is smart, he brings it in and hangs onto it for as short of a time as possible. Quick, find a buyer, move it before it may die. Sure, I am always excited going though and importers place looking at all sorts of things..... but it is not the same....even back then. But, w/o the importers to give us the animals and show us what we can get our hands on then there would be nothing. I completley appreciate that point! Shoot, the AIRPLANES that brought the snakes...the cargo handlers, the boxes that held the snake..the bags....the string...the nails....

Kev@NERD
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www.newenglandreptile.com

Again you make some good points and I can appreciate where your coming from but this is a topic that is way to intricate to fully go into via typing on a forum .Also the time frame changes the individual perspective.For you the the first breeders expo ( 91 or 2 ) was an awaking for me being at Hank Molts shop in Willow Grove in 70 / 71 was the awaking. There were a lot of guys doing things in terms of captive breeding and husbandry not to mention fooling with morph stuff that will not be remembered for their pioneer work. What was the guys name that bred the first albino corn snake ? Ernie Eison

Ps Mike Ellard was also very aware that captive breeding was the future we talked about it all the but like a lot of guys he didn`t have the cash to sit on animals until they produced or didn`t.He needed the income now. Never underestimate the advantages of having nice working capital in helping one to be cutting edge.Sometimes it take more the vison.

What have I contributed to the world??

Well, I have for years now let uninformed/unaware people (co-workers, family, friends) know about important environmental issues such as recycling, waste reduction, and greenhouse gases. I am a 'nature nut' to the fullest. Some in my family affectionately refer to me as the 'Recycling Nazi.'

I've also done my best to help people be more socially aware.
'Where did that Ralph Lauren shirt come from, and how much was the worker payed for producing it?'

I sponsor TWO children through the Christian Children's Fund.

On a weekly basis I am at the local Humane Society walking dogs and playing with cats. That's volunteer work, it doesn't pay money.

And every other weekend I bake cookies, banana breads, etc and distribute them to the homeless in downtown Toronto.

Any expired bread/buns/rolls/bagels/etc I have in my home is fed to the birds to avoid having it truly go to 'waste.'

And if it counts for anything (and to me it does) I've stepped in (on two occasions) to stop a man from assaulting his girlfriend/spouse.

Since you asked. Not bad for an atheist, I'd say.

By 'world' you did mean the planet Earth and my fellow human being, right?

Or by 'world' did you mean herpetoculture? Well, not much of a contribution there I guess. Just 500+ cornsnake hatchlings since 2000, and a dozen or so Pastel Balls since 2003.

BackBeat

AKA Joe Clark
Toronto, Ontario
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"Have you hugged your drummer today?" --- Me

I meant the world of herps. But, still, kudos to you . And, you bring up a great point, in the end all we are talking about here is snakes - so nobody ought to get too big a head.

I know at this point, I could give a hoot about what X Breeder has done for the industry. I don’t owe any of the “Big Kids” gratitude and for any of them to ask for it is arrogant, haughty and self-important.

For all those people who feel the need to remind us all what they’ve done for the ball industry every 10 minutes in order to feel important: Please overcompensate for your shortcomings somewhere else, because I for one am tired of it here….

Please note this message was written in a completely imprecise manner and no names were mentioned nor were any particular individuals targeted.

Rock On Christy
I spend many hours reading and dont post alot but Christie you nailed it. These big breeder basically give you a step by step front row seat to there processes that have worked for them . Thats pretty unselfish I would say. I have sent ralph and other big breeders E mails of probably some pretty dumb ass Questions and you know what. They always take the time to respond with a very informative answer. Its all about the money factor , If all these morphs were worth $50.00 this kind of mindless drama would never come up. I say thanks to all you big boys that have really made me a more educated herper by far. Im just wondering if any of you whiners would put up a web site with step by step instruction on how to convert water to gold if you knew how?
Rock on Ralphy and all you big boys from a very little boy. Thanks for all your help.

It has been interesting to me to watch how people twist my words (and those who expressed your sentiments above). I'm not sure if it's intentional, or if they really have no category for recognizing hard work and dedication and the rewards that occasionally come with those qualities.

Since when is acknowledging someone's accomplishments "sucking up"?

Why is letting people know who has helped you succeed or calling them a friend "hero worship"?

People have largely missed the point of my post - and some have even used it to self promote, which I think is funny. Yeah, alot of people spend time regurgitating tried-and-true advice to newbies. That's great and needed - but it is what it is - 99.9% just passing on tips that someone with more experience taught us.

My question was and is, have you pioneered? If not, you might want to tread lightly on the subject of what the big kids are doing wrong.

Thanks for getting the point - I was beginning to think I had miscommunicated LOL!

Christy

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LMAO

OK, that is just too funny! So let me get this right ...

It's ok (if not demanded) to recognize and appreciate the accomplishments of the "big breeders". But the hundreds of people (myself aside) who have, for decades, (long before the morphs arrived) dedicated themselves to the average hobbyist and the boids they keep, those that have selflessly made great sacrifices to the community - with no big name or million dollar paycheck at the end - done simply for the betterment of the hobby - those people don't deserve appreciation? Am I understanding you correctly that unless you've personally made a unique contribution to the boid community then you are not allowed to have a voice in the community? Hmmm sounds kinda communist to me - I thought we lived in a democracy. Maybe I misunderstood? Critiscism is a fact of life if you can't take it get out.

For a "big guy" to "spend thousands of hours a year helping hundreds of folks struggle through "my ball won't eat" - folks that will probably never purchase an animal from you?" its commendable and you should show your appreciation - but if anyone else does it - its regurgitation? Apparently only the "big breeders" have any knowledge of how to feed and care for ball pythons?

Acknowledging accomplishments is great - but remember there is a whole very large community of people out there aside from the breeders and there are alot of people that give as much or more to the general community than "the big breeders" and maybe they deserve a little appreciation too instead of dismissing them because they aren't "big breeders". Besides you - asked I told - if you want to call that self promoting - then so be it - but again - you asked the questions.

And for the record I have acknowledged my respect for the "big breeders" but I don't walk around in rose colored classes either. And I don't care who you are or what you give ... If you can't act in a respectful manner (especially in business or to those that afford you your opportunities) then you don't deserve to whine about it when people loose respect for you. I would think that is fairly obvious - I could be wrong.

And if you've been given a leg up from a big guy then more power to you. I'm sure you'll make your first million long before I do.

BTW - this post is not ment to be confrontational or to bad mouth anyone - just pointing out some very points that were obviously missed.
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Tosha

"Nihil facimus sed id bene facimus"

7.33.0 Ball Python (Harry and Fluffy and gang)
1.0.0 Angolan Python (Anakin Skywalker)
0.0.1 Green Tree Python (Verdi - yeah I know but my kids love the book)
0.2.0 Feline (Pippen and Pandora)
0.0.1 Desert Tortoise (Pope John Paul aka JP )
2.2.1 Fish (1,2,3,4)
0.0.2 frogs rescued from pool skimmer

When you are up to doing it on the level they are let me know your thoughts then!

Not everyone wants to breed on that level - I'm happy with my small family hobby - but if I were making millions breeding balls - I certainly wouldn't be offended by the critisism and I'd treat my customers with the respect they deserve.
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Tosha

"Nihil facimus sed id bene facimus"

7.33.0 Ball Python (Harry and Fluffy and gang)
1.0.0 Angolan Python (Anakin Skywalker)
0.0.1 Green Tree Python (Verdi - yeah I know but my kids love the book)
0.2.0 Feline (Pippen and Pandora)
0.0.1 Desert Tortoise (Pope John Paul aka JP )
2.2.1 Fish (1,2,3,4)
0.0.2 frogs rescued from pool skimmer

Hi Tosh,

This will be my last attempt at explaining my post . I really hate using the quote, response format but it seems appropriate here since we are having a miscommunication.

Tosha: "But the hundreds of people (myself aside) who have, for decades, (long before the morphs arrived) dedicated themselves to the average hobbyist and the boids they keep, those that have selflessly made great sacrifices to the community - with no big name or million dollar paycheck at the end - done simply for the betterment of the hobby - those people don't deserve appreciation?"

My original post said "big boys" and "old timers." Of course they deserve respect. Most of them were pioneers in some way or another. Of course they deserve appreciation - my whole post revolves around exactly this point! We could end it right here and be in total agreement, so what’s the problem?

Tosha: "Am I understanding you correctly that unless you've personally made a unique contribution to the boid community then you are not allowed to have a voice in the community?"

You are misunderstanding me. You have a voice, so do I. Maybe we should use it to thank those who have been the pioneers, at least from time to time.

Tosha: "Critiscism is a fact of life if you can't take it get out."

I think you mean "Criticism." Glad we both agree it's fine to be critiqued.

Tosha: "For a "big guy" to "spend thousands of hours a year helping hundreds of folks struggle through "my ball won't eat" - folks that will probably never purchase an animal from you?" its commendable and you should show your appreciation - but if anyone else does it - its regurgitation? Apparently only the "big breeders" have any knowledge of how to feed and care for ball pythons?"

The question is not whether we (you and I) have the knowledge, it's whether we actually CREATED the knowledge. If we did not develop that technique, info, etc., ourselves, we are indeed regurgitating tips that someone else somewhere pioneered. And yes, I believe that each and every one of the major players on the BP scene today actually DEVELOPED innovative procedures, or pioneered new knowledge.

This does not take away from your tireless work on the forums. I think you do a great job there, and I do appreciate YOU for that. If you have developed some independent innovations of your own of which I am not aware, then I hope you will post a list of them on the BP forum so we can all benefit. But, every bit of information I pass on was received from others so I have nothing new or innovative that I can consider "my own." I regurge. Maybe someday I’ll make a post about how newbies should be thankful to people like you who answer their questions – but that’s not what this thread is about.

Tosha: Acknowledging accomplishments is great - but remember there is a whole very large community of people out there aside from the breeders and there are alot of people that give as much or more to the general community than "the big breeders" and maybe they deserve a little appreciation too instead of dismissing them because they aren't "big breeders"

I feel you are trying to twist my words to something I neither said nor implied. My post was about a specific topic - whether people have really thought through how these folks have contributed, and how I feel that is appropriate to consider this as we write our posts about them. For the record, I appreciate anyone who tries to help someone else with anything in our outside the herp community - including you, Tosha. Again, this just was not the subject of my post.

Tosha: "Besides you - asked I told - if you want to call that self promoting - then so be it - but again - you asked the questions."

True enough, although when you posted your original thread, my second response was already up. The title of that thread indicated the questions were meant to be rhetorical. I also think "soul searching" is something that goes on within a person, not in public. Everyone promotes, I just thought you chose a strange venue to do it. No harm, no foul.

Tosha: “If you can't act in a respectful manner (especially in business or to those that afford you your opportunities) then you don't deserve to whine about it when people loose respect for you. I would think that is fairly obvious - I could be wrong.”

I think it’s interesting you bring this up considering the last post you made to this thread was pulled because you crossed the line of respect. Nevertheless, you are absolutely right – and if I have disrespected you in some way I apologize. Likewise, if anyone reading this feels I have done so to them, please let me know so we can work it out.

Tosha: “And if you've been given a leg up from a big guy then more power to you. I'm sure you'll make your first million long before I do.”

I highly doubt that since I have no goals to make a million – or a killing on balls. A little side money and a fun hobby is all I want. I have other priorities.

Tosha: This post is not meant to be confrontational or to bad mouth anyone - just pointing out some very points that were obviously missed.

I think what was missed was the purpose of my original post, and I’m still trying to figure out why. Nasty (who posted above) understood exactly what I was saying. He didn’t agree (fine), but he got my point. I have been as clear here as I know how to be – it’s fine if you don’t agree. Now, let’s get over to the main forum and tell someone how to get their import to feed!

Christy

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Christy

I am going to agree to agree - I think there has been enough miscommunication and missed points in this thread and the horse is officially dead.
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Tosha

"Nihil facimus sed id bene facimus"

7.33.0 Ball Python (Harry and Fluffy and gang)
1.0.0 Angolan Python (Anakin Skywalker)
0.0.1 Green Tree Python (Verdi - yeah I know but my kids love the book)
0.2.0 Feline (Pippen and Pandora)
0.0.1 Desert Tortoise (Pope John Paul aka JP )
2.2.1 Fish (1,2,3,4)
0.0.2 frogs rescued from pool skimmer

I dont think it is "poking fun" or degrading anyone to ask, on an open discussion forum, in a thoughtful manner, not mentioning anyone or their business by name , a question like:

How long can the larger outfits price their snakes sometimes 500% higher than the going rate? Wondering if holding off on buying something or buying it immediately might be the best course of action for me or others and asking for feedback on it.

I think its relavent to me, or anyone else, who is shelling out hard earned money, what the near and long term economics of the situation is. I think the laws of supply and demand are a factor in this industry just as any other.

If you want to believe the person who is charging you a 500% markup over the going rate on a snake is a nice guy just because he does it with a smile and plants a free tree on the African Savannah, so be it. But that does'nt make ME the bad guy for pointing it out.

Hi Zef,

My remarks were not about the market - or the appropriateness of anyone's pricing. My post was not aimed at yours, either. However, the way you chose to word your topic did make it appear that you were eager to see the big boys break, IMHO.

I just don't like the general disrespect I see:

"I hope that the big guys dont break, and have to get real jobs." That comment makes me think the poster has probably never spent a 12 hour day cleaning a rat barn.

I also don't truly understand why people are so unhappy with the market. All I produced last year were pastels - which I guess are now "junk snakes," according to most people. So, I wholesaled 16K in "junk" - which is more income than I make from my part time "real job."

Am I supposed to be complaining about that?

I'm just not seeing it. I really don't understand why there are so many people unhappy with the market. Every snake I produced was sold ahead of the season wholesale (although I did keep back a few and retail them). Obviously the wholesaler would not want them if he was not selling them at a a resonable profit - so, somebody is buying pastels.

I wish some people who complain about the market would post their STORIES. Why are they so cynical? Did they have two bad seasons in a row? Did someone cheat them? Why haven't they been able to make their investment back? Are they just mad because it took more than one clutch of eggs to pay off their breeder male? Nobody posts that stuff, which I think would be very telling (and maybe even helpful to the person posting).

Thanks, Christy

If, in my original post, I seemed to be excited about the prospect of anyone breaking, it wasn't personal or directed towards any one individual.

I have been watching the pricing (we all do that) and it seems to me there is a disconnect between some of the larger breeders pricing and the going rate. While I do believe folks will pay more for the "extras" a large outfit can provide (Ive done it myself!), I believe there are limits to what the "extras" are worth. I think that a price correction will have to occur. This or the larger guys will have to "back door" their stock. Either way the animals will hit the market and effect pricing.

My comments were not meant to be callous, although I can see that they could appear that way. I look at it like watching the stock market or a football game and simply get excited at the prospect of lower prices. Maybe I am callous in a way, but I dont feel anymore callous than the BIG GUY who charges that 18 year old kid buying his first snake 500% above the going rate.

You seem like a great, hard-working person, Christy. I wish nothing but the best for you and people like you.

Hi - Just a question with a different perspective possibly. Do you think "the Big Boys" who created the new morphs are marking up their prices by 500% or are some of the little guys jumping into the market and underpricing their animals by 500% in hopes of quick returns on their investments. Some of the little guys don't seem concerned about the effects on the market in the long run? I understand supply and demand, and I know the prices will come down each year. But whether you are breeding Ball Pythons for fun or business you need to do it responsibly and make wise decisions. We should all be working together to protect our investment in the ball market, there's more than money at steak. Bad decisions affect us all in one way or another. No man's an island, the ripple effects reach us all.
I have limited space and time to work with my animals, but I love doing it. I enjoy having a small collection of quality animals that produce a small amount of offspring. Why ruin that? More money? It may not be all it's cracked up to be? It should be for the love of the animals first, money second.
Well that's just my thoughts on the topic.
Good luck to everyone this season, I hope you are having as much fun as I am.

PS - wholesale prices are for a quantity of animals not just one right? Just checking cause I swear some people think because a wholesale price exsists they should get that price for buying one animal. go figure.
Take care.
Becky
WFReptiles

np

Where some of the most incredible animals ever seen passed through the hands of Joe and Louis. Got my first adult BH python there over 25 years ago for the princely sum of $600. I also enjoyed driving up to see what Jerry Tresser would bring in from Africa..or anywhere else in the world. Sure, I bought kingsnakes, alligator lizards and S.A. turtles from Bill Chase back in the late 50's and early 60's..and that's what kept my interest going in herps. Most of us got started as kids, but the importers kept a lot of dreams alive. Breeding for bucks was just starting for most people in the 70's. I remember Terry Lilly saying at one of the first Reptile Syposiums that he had bought a Porsche by breeding mostly kingsnakes.

A LOT of info was gathered at those Symposiums, and although he didn't breed a lot of stuff then(he had a zoo to run), much credit goes to Rick Hahn for keeping the interest going and the info coming in.
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1.1 Blackheaded pythons
1.1 Woma (Juvie female)
2.1 Aussie Olives
1.1 Timors
1.0 Angolan Juvie
1.1 Savu
1.1 Juvie Bloods
1.1 Juvie Balls
1.1 IJ Carpets
1.1 Coastal Carpets
1.2 Macklotts
1.1 Papuan Olives
1.0 Jungle Carpet
2.2 Scrubs (on breeding loan)
0.1 Jungle/Diamond cross
0.1 child, CB
0.1 wife, WC