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Dehydration

WillHayward Nov 16, 2005 03:10 PM

This question is primarily to anyone who has dealt with the problem before. Reason being that I believe the problem to be grave enough that I would rather have advice from someone with real experience in the matter than someone who has only read common information on the subject. Thank you, but feel free to share any information you might have, this is a fairly friendly forum and I appreciate the help. Support from you, many of whom I can almost consider friends rather than acquaintances, is very welcomed.

I like to think that I rescued this chameleon from a near by pet store, but seeing as its condition is not up to par it is hard for me to say that, though I am quite sure had it stayed as it was it would have been dead long ago. It is unsexed, but for the purpose of the discussion I will call it a he, or as it is for obvious reasons, known as, 'Godzilla'. Godzilla was discovered in a neighbouring cities pet store on October 8th. He was a Wild Caught Millers Chameleon who had arrived in a shipment with 5 others from Tanzania. 4 were bought the night they arrived, October 5th. I assume they were all in better condition than the two that had been left there. The two remaining were in an 18"x18"x18" glass tank. On the bottom, half was covered with thick chunks of wood chips and splinters, with much glass still reliving. A single 3" thick tree branch had been braced in to fit from on bottom corner to the adjacent top corner. Several adult crickets where scurrying around the bottom, between the legs of both chameleons. They were each approximately 14 inches long from nose to tail tip. One had its back ridges ripped. Black blotches had formed at the top, and the nasal horn had been broken off from the chameleon 'skating' on the glass with its nose in a corner. The other, (soon to be mine) was in better condition, with nice spinal ridges and horn. Although both were dehydrated, semi-sunken eyes, thin limbs and had a concaved body where the back dipped in at the spine and rose to the ridge in an inward dip, similar to a quarter pipe.

The next day, October 9th, a friend and I drove back to the neighbouring city on a quest to get each of those chameleons. I had set up new enclosures for the trio of Maroantsetra Panther Chameleons, and left the giant enclosures ready for the arrival of new 'patients'. After trying to bargain the price down, I left with only one Mellers, at full price. I chose the better off of the two. Once he arrived home, he appeared much happier with vibrant greens and yellows, almost glowing. I set him, Godzilla on the cage floor where he licked up water (With Electrolytes and D3 supplement) from which I was hand spraying from a bottle onto a rock. This went on for 10 minutes, with me having to refill the bottle several times. Eventually Godzilla caught on, and actually put hit mouth over the end of the spray nozzle allowing me to squirt into his mouth. After misting the cage down. Over the next two weeks he ate only crickets and refused any worms. The cage was very thoroughly misted down 3 or more times a day and a humidifier was set up a few meters away. The basking spot was corrected to have the according temperature and several more pathos and 3 shefflera plants were added into the enclosure. Plenty of UVB is present, both new 5.0 and 2.0 bulbs as well as a plant light producing extra UVA. Gaining weight, eating from hands, and showing more vibrant colours Godzilla seemed to be getting healthier.

Some day in early November I noticed that he had stopped eating, rarely snapping up the crickets available or offered and rarely drinking. The day after, sunken eyes began to be apparent. I scheduled an appointment for him the next day with a local reptile specialist veterinarian. Godzilla had a treatment for any possible parasites and was given a force fed food and liquid supplement. I was left with pockets empty and instructions to use syringes to force feed chicken baby food to nurse him back to health and to hydrate. The vet explained that she felt his body was full of air and was lighter than he appeared to be for his size. I have twice a day given him the chicken broth (more liquid, without chunks) baby food with the help of my father, who has also become dedicated to helping in my efforts. He seems to poor once every 12 hours to once a day. A large black bead, slightly larger than he had when he was eating crickets, with smaller blobs of white urinate.

So it has since been about 2 weeks, and although his body seems a good size. I started to add drops of Electrolyte and D3 Vitamins into the food, along with calcium power and vitamin supplements. The eyes are somewhat better, but they by no means look in full health. The vet is calling every so often to have an x-ray done and blood work, not that I cannot or will not pay this, I feel that there is a good chance they are more interested in the money than the health of the chameleon. What can I do, other than supplementing, misting thoroughly, offering all feeder types and showering?

Thank you for reading.
Another thought. Although it seems difficult to whether he will stabilise, what chance does he have of continuing to grow if health improves? At 14" this is far from Adult Melleri size.

-----
1.1 Bearded Dragons
1.2 Maroantsetra Panther Chameleons
2.0 Long Tailed Grass Lizards
0.0.1 Giant Mellers Chameleon
0.0.2 Rhampholeon Brevicaudatus Chameleons
500 Escaped Crickets

Replies (18)

Kurpak Nov 16, 2005 04:39 PM

Hi Will,
I've been through a similar ordeal with 2 imported melleri
last year. The key I found was "super" hydrating them in their free range multiple times daily along with giving them a LArge
space that is heavily planted (I had 2 animals in a space
approx 6'x6'7' high). I have an automated misting system I used,
which seemed crucial in delivering enough water without having
to dode over them all day long, or pull the animals out daily for showering which only stressed them more. Mellers can take a long time to start drinking, and once they do start can drink for up to an hour at a time. When they first arrived they sat under the misting nozzles all day long waiting for more water. They would get daily 45 minute misting sessions twice a day, along with short 3 minute burts every other hour. I also used a zoomed powersun bulb which seemed to perk them up a bit. I would not attempt force feeding with vitamins and electrolytes
unless the animal's weight seems very thin, it will only stress them more. Leaving them alone, giving tons of water, space, balmy temps, a basking lamp, and letting them settle down is vital before you can start administering worming agents, medication etc. (ironically the antibiotics, and wormers will kill them alot faster than the parasites themselves.) Also exposing them to sunlight whenever possible will get their spirits up. Lots and lots of warm water is very important, along with keeping your visual contact with them down to a minimun. (they pretty much stress when you look at them wrong.)
They can live many weeks without food if properly hydrated and not stressed. Newly imported chameleons don't seem to have a taste for crickets, so when a hunger strike insues it's not always a sign of illness. I would try using some blaberus roach species (discoids, distanti, dubias, also hornworms-they loved these!) My guys wouldn't even eat crickets, but as soon as I offered large roaches, watch out!
On top of that, my female had a broken legpelvis that healed up
completely, so they're alot tougher that people think if kept under the right conditions.
They seemed to like roaches, hornworms, silkworms in that order.
Hope none of this is reduntant, worked very well for me.
garrett

WillHayward Nov 16, 2005 05:26 PM

Garrett, Much thanks for taking the time to reply in depth.

For the time being the enclosure is only 3 feet high, though it is raised more than 4' from the ground. In the beggining new year, I will have a new enclosure for him, providing he survives, as well as for all the other chameleons I have.

Godzilla has a round tummy, as you can see in the photo, but the top of his spine is visible and his leg bones are rather stringy. These I beleive are reason enough to force feed the nessecary suppliments and foods. He only is stressed when you have to take him of his tree, after that he is fine with sitting on a hand. Although recently we have been able to try and force feed him while he is in the cage, in his favourite area, where he shows little stress. He had been settled for a month and was doing well before the deworming medication was administerd.

As I said, he seemed to love the crickets, eyes lit up and crest flaps a waving, he was go after any and all for the first month. It is the worms that he will not touch at all.
Roaches are illegal to have here in Canada and they are not easily illegally attained either. I have not been succesful in finding hornworms as of yet, though there may be a chance that I could find some at the upcomming expo on the 27th.

Thank you.

-----
1.1 Bearded Dragons
1.2 Maroantsetra Panther Chameleons
2.0 Long Tailed Grass Lizards
0.0.1 Giant Mellers Chameleon
0.0.2 Rhampholeon Brevicaudatus Chameleons
500 Escaped Crickets

DRep Nov 16, 2005 05:38 PM

Do you have a more recent photo of him? Also, just because he does not show signs of stress when moving him around, it does not mean he's not stressing. Meller's (especially wild caught, which most are), are a very sensitive and fragile species. I would follow Kurpak's advice on keeping him hydrated rather than force feeding, which can often times make the animal's condition much worse. Good luck with him

ankinc Nov 16, 2005 07:12 PM

Hey,

I didn't read the whole thread, so some of this might have already been brought up already....

There is one thing that will make a big difference, and I believe you said that you are already doing it. Keep him in the shower!!! Try to keep him in there an entire day, for about 12 hours if possible then do the same thing the next day. He should eat alot better after this. I do not use electrolites and all of that stuff. Just keep him well hydrated, and try to stress him as little as possible. However, I see an x-ray not necessary...

Ank-Inc.
Adam.

WillHayward Nov 16, 2005 07:16 PM

I can usually only give shower time on the weekend, but I'll give him a nice long rainstorm this saterday I guess. I need to get something better to have him hang from. What are other people using?
-----
1.1 Bearded Dragons
1.2 Maroantsetra Panther Chameleons
2.0 Long Tailed Grass Lizards
0.0.1 Giant Mellers Chameleon
0.0.2 Rhampholeon Brevicaudatus Chameleons
500 Escaped Crickets

flammysnake Nov 16, 2005 09:15 PM

My female veiled is still kinda small, so I've been able to move her entire enclosure into the shower(with a little help), remove the bottom of it and turn on the shower. She's still in a familiar territory, and she likes to drink the water build ups on the screen. I hope that was a little helpful at least, good luck, I'm working with a dehydrated male veiled, so I know how hard this is to deal with. Best wishes!

WillHayward Nov 16, 2005 09:21 PM

Thank you flammy. I wish you luck with yours aswell. I have faith that iwth time and a watchful eye, Godzilla will improve. Unfortunately I don't think I can put this 8' unit in the shower. :D

-----
1.1 Bearded Dragons
1.2 Maroantsetra Panther Chameleons
2.0 Long Tailed Grass Lizards
0.0.1 Giant Mellers Chameleon
0.0.2 Rhampholeon Brevicaudatus Chameleons
500 Escaped Crickets

flammysnake Nov 16, 2005 11:55 PM

Well, you could just try to jam it in there, but even then I don't think it will work! Is that a reptatium on it's side? I've seen the pictures before, but I never made the connection! What size is that? I like the idea of housing two in it with the blinds in the middle(that is yours right?). I see so many pictures on here I can't remember who has what in what setup with what problems! Best of luck!

WillHayward Nov 17, 2005 06:01 AM

You are correct in all your guesses. It is 260 Gallons, raised 4 feet from the ground.
-----
1.1 Bearded Dragons
1.2 Maroantsetra Panther Chameleons
2.0 Long Tailed Grass Lizards
0.0.1 Giant Mellers Chameleon
0.0.2 Rhampholeon Brevicaudatus Chameleons
500 Escaped Crickets

MelleriLover Nov 17, 2005 09:53 AM

Will,

I can see straight off a few problems with your setup. While you have great intentions, there are just a few things that could be changed to help your Melleri become less stressed.

First, they like VERY VERY tall enclosures. Melleri come from the canopy of the forest, primarily, so even though is cage is a TOTAL of 7 ft tall, he has only 3ft of usable climbing area at this moment, and that's not enough. Most people who keep Melleri keep them in enclosures that have USABLE climbing space of over 6ft tall. Turn your reptarium on its small side; make it taller. You can still leave your flourescents where they are, simply zip tie them in place. This will give him much more usable space, and it will also allow him to be over your head at all times. This will REALLY help out with his stress levels. Also, see if you can find a Ficus Benjamina. These are pretty hardy trees that are completely safe to keep in with your Melleri. It will give him extra climbing room and make him feel very happy, as he can hide within the leaves and break up his line of vision to you.

In addition to this, Melleri, especially wild caught ones, often take quite a while to begin drinking in captivity. This is exacerbated by the fact that they are often very stressed just by being in a new environment in very close contact with humans. I would try to set up an automatic misting system to mist him for perhaps 30 minutes at a time, 3 times per day at first. I know this seems like a lot, but he will need it, especially now.

Its also not uncommon for them to go on a hunger strike. I'm very sorry to hear that you can't keep roaches in Canada, as they are undoubtedly the best food source for captive melleri. If you can, attempt to get some Phasmids (stick insects). Most large chameleons, Melleri included, seem to love them, and they're very easy to keep and breed on your own. You can also culture your own houseflies. The adults would have to eat MANY flies to get the nutrition they need, but they seem to enjoy the chase.

Take the other Melleri keeper's advice. They're good folks.

Good luck with Godzilla, i hope that he rallies for you! They are an absolutely fascinating species!

Jamie

WillHayward Nov 17, 2005 03:13 PM

Thank you Jamie, before I say anything, I'll let you know that in the last two weeks since I have been force feeding him, he has been showing improvments, I hadn't mentioned that in the first post, which I should have. I was more concentration on what else I can do, to hopefully speed this up. Either way, I think I received more attention and detail with people accidentally thinking he is on death row.

As for the cage. I absolutely know what should be done for a cage, though I will not have the means to change anything for another couple months. Before febuary, he will have his own mansion. His enclore as is now has a healthy ficus benjaminas, 3 umbrela shefflera plants and 3 groupings of pothis. This is planted in around a beatiful peice of 'driftwood' with vine highways to all parts on the cage. It all seems quite useless when he spends so much time dozing off... [1]That is to say that during the times of the day I SEE him, there is a good chance he is. [/1]

Hmm, I really want to keep roaches. Crickets are the most vile disgusting feeder there is. I mean, I'm not scared or grossed by them, but nothing about them is pleseant! :D I have also never seen houseflies on the canadian market. I see them on US sites, but never here in Canada.

Funny... last night a thought kept going through my head to just convert my standing shower into a cage... :D then I had this mental image of my all coverd in mud and flies after not showering for weeks... T

Thank you Jamie.
-----
1.1 Bearded Dragons
1.2 Maroantsetra Panther Chameleons
2.0 Long Tailed Grass Lizards
0.0.1 Giant Mellers Chameleon
0.0.2 Rhampholeon Brevicaudatus Chameleons
500 Escaped Crickets

WillHayward Nov 21, 2005 06:49 AM

RIP
please read the following.

-----
1.1 Bearded Dragons
1.2 Maroantsetra Panther Chameleons
2.0 Long Tailed Grass Lizards
0.0.1 Giant Mellers Chameleon
0.0.2 Rhampholeon Brevicaudatus Chameleons
500 Escaped Crickets

WillHayward Nov 17, 2005 04:35 PM

I forgot to mention that this was not designed to be used for the mellers. It had my panther chameleons divided in it. But This is what I have. The other alternative was to leave him at the store in the 18" cube glass tank in sub sub par conditions...

Thanks.
-----
1.1 Bearded Dragons
1.2 Maroantsetra Panther Chameleons
2.0 Long Tailed Grass Lizards
0.0.1 Giant Mellers Chameleon
0.0.2 Rhampholeon Brevicaudatus Chameleons
500 Escaped Crickets

Carlton Nov 17, 2005 11:33 AM

Can you find a fake silk leaved Ficus tree from KMart or some similar place to put in the shower for him to perch in? It will give him some visual cover, lots of surfaces to drink from. I've also used wooden laundry drying racks. Anything with structure that he can grip and move around on to get in or out of the spray. Even a used bird cage would work.

Also, the vet's suggestion for blood work is not a bad idea. It could identify kidney problems, white cell levels, electrolyte imbalances or microfilarial worms in the circulatory system (melleri do get these and they are not detected in fecal floats). If no immediate problems show up you will at least have a baseline of blood values to compare to later.

WillHayward Nov 17, 2005 03:00 PM

Thanks Calton, 300$ for bloodwork that has a good chance of giving the vet even more reason to insist I return to have more treatment just doesn't seem right when there is a good chance that nothing of importance will turn up. When I posted this I guess I could have made it seem a little too seriosu because I failed to mention that he HAS been looking better and better. Though I was curious how I could speed up recovery.

Thank you for your time.
-----
1.1 Bearded Dragons
1.2 Maroantsetra Panther Chameleons
2.0 Long Tailed Grass Lizards
0.0.1 Giant Mellers Chameleon
0.0.2 Rhampholeon Brevicaudatus Chameleons
500 Escaped Crickets

WillHayward Nov 16, 2005 05:36 PM

On top of that, it's winter and will soon reach below 32 F Degrees and there is only about 10:30 hours of sunlight.
-----
1.1 Bearded Dragons
1.2 Maroantsetra Panther Chameleons
2.0 Long Tailed Grass Lizards
0.0.1 Giant Mellers Chameleon
0.0.2 Rhampholeon Brevicaudatus Chameleons
500 Escaped Crickets

pdragon1 Nov 17, 2005 12:13 PM

I have had a ton of experience with Mellers. The best thing that you can do is give it natural sunlight. I have brought these things from deaths door by putting them outside. Also, a heavy load of parasites can cause them to look dehydrated no matter how much water you give them. You want to get the animal eating and drinking, then have it treated. Just set the animal up, and leave it alone(except for watering and feeding). Medium garden snails work well, along with superworms, roaches, crickets, and hornworms. I have also used Anoles, house geckos, and fuzzy mice. Every Mellers is different, so try a little of everything until you figure out what it really likes. When you get them acclimated, they tend to do well as long as you stay on top of things. If you live where the weather is o.k. to put them outside, I highly reccomend it. Good luck, Josh

WillHayward Nov 17, 2005 02:57 PM

I'd love to take it outside. However it is snowing outside, so I don't think that would go over well...

I have offerd Garden snails, silkworms, butterworms, waxworms, mealworms and even mealworm beatles, but the only thing he has accepted are crickets. Roaches are Illegal in Canada. Other reptiles would not be suitible or practical since he is smaller and I don't think it would be safe to give him them.

He IS looking better just this last week. I know he will pull around, but my main reason for posting this was to see what else I could do to speed up recovery and attempt to keep him growing.
-----
1.1 Bearded Dragons
1.2 Maroantsetra Panther Chameleons
2.0 Long Tailed Grass Lizards
0.0.1 Giant Mellers Chameleon
0.0.2 Rhampholeon Brevicaudatus Chameleons
500 Escaped Crickets

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