Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I had a banner year for Eastern Indigo hatchlings in 2005.

I discovered an interesting (but potentially risky) technique to get many of them started feeding. After hatching, I kept the hatchlings in groups of roughly five to six in sweater boxes. Immediately after their first shed, I dropped several live newborn rat pinkies into each box. Just after the first shed seems to be a time when the hatchlings are predisposed to start feeding. When one hatchling would decide to attack a pinky, the other hatchlings in the cage would see this and their own feeding responses would be stimulated. I would routinely see one hatchling dragging a pinky around the cage with a few other hatchlings chasing after.

The next day I would remove the animals that had fed into individual cages. After about three or four weeks old, some of the hatchlings will start to atttempt to consume each other. I had known of this possibility, but I am one to test what I believe may be hearsay. Let's just say I verified this to be true the hard way.

Those animals that wouldn't take unscented pinkies got another try at goldfish scented pinkies, a day or two later. This nearly doubled the number of feeding hatchlings. I got more than half of my hatchlings started in this way, by two weeks after hatching.

I just finished taking care of the people on my waiting list, but I still have plenty of hatchlings. They are mostly the red throat form, as currently all of my adults are red throats. Being six months old now, most of them are three to five times their original size. I regretfully sold my all-black adults (one male and three females) last year when I was in a difficult financial situation. I am attempting to rebuild my all-black population of adults.

I have been busy with so many hatchlings and I haven't posted for several months, but I will try to start posting again. Right now is mating time for my colony, and I am almost finished with the second matings of my 14 adult females. I now believe that a third mating is pointless, as the eggs will be too far along in maturing for this to accomplish anything.

Good luck to everyone, Robert Bruce.

Great post! Your work is incredible! Good luck with the second batch of babies!
I also used goldfish and smaller feeder fish to get a clutch of YT Cribo babies feeding.

Sorry, but I find "Mr. Bruce's" regimen of feeding baby indigos in a communal set up to be way too risky when working with baby indigos (he even said that he learned the hard way which tells me he allowed one of the babies to consume another baby....NOT GOOD!!). I have raised babies individually for over 12 years and have never encountered any problematic feeders and see absolutely NO reason to feed in a group environment. These are animals that are hard wired to consumer small reptiles and amphibians...baby indigo equals baby indigo food! Do they test your patience? Heck yeah, but I never had to worry about babies eating each other!! My methods are far safer and more effective and they work....but I won't advertise my successes here. Cheers,

Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center
Lake Forest, IL

>>Great post! Your work is incredible! Good luck with the second batch of babies!
>>I also used goldfish and smaller feeder fish to get a clutch of YT Cribo babies feeding.
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Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center at Elawa Farm
Lake Forest, IL

Take it easy Rob! I am saying that his work in breeding hatching and raising that many indigo babies successfully is indeed incredible and if that's how he got them feeding and and has prevented any recent mishaps via learning from his previous experiences then right on that's incredible.
What, you are saying his work isn't impressive? What are you jealous? Don't bash the man. He's doing something positive here.

I must agree with Carmical, wholeheartedly! It seems reckless and cruel to subject one of our National treasures to it's own canibalistic tendancies, for the sake of making the human captors life a little easier!

And I think we would all like to know what Mr. Carmicals methods are! Especialy if those methods are effective, and NOT cruel!!!

In a given clutch of babies, I offer everyone a frozen thawed fuzzy mouse; normally, one to three out of a clutch of 9-14 will take them with zeal. For the others, I will then offer a live fuzzy, once again, a few more will take to these at which time I can get them on frozen thawed fairly quickly. The stubborn ones are then offered one day old quail; most love 'em and take to them quickly. For the others, its just a matter of patience; a little frog or fish scenting and voila, everyone is feeding, everyone is safe, everyone is healthy and they all grow very quickly. Not too hard eh? It really just comes down to having patience with this species; period.

>>I must agree with Carmical, wholeheartedly! It seems reckless and cruel to subject one of our National treasures to it's own canibalistic tendancies, for the sake of making the human captors life a little easier!
>>
>>And I think we would all like to know what Mr. Carmicals methods are! Especialy if those methods are effective, and NOT cruel!!!
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Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center at Elawa Farm
Lake Forest, IL

np

Robert, keep up the good work despite the backbiting that goes on. It was a pleasure meeting you. I had never imagined seeing so many black snakes with bright red heads all in one place...Bill

Given that Robert Bruce has had as much breeding success with couperi this year than all the other major breeders in the nation combined, I find the critiques above a bit disingenuous. And note that he did not say in his post that any baby indigo was eaten by another - so perhaps the critics should read more carefully and without too much undue inference.

Any experienced keeper or breeder tries unorthodox methods from time to time, and this should be congratulated.

As for Robert's captive husbandry, the mark of psychologically, physically happy reptiles is that they breed well. So the proof is in the pudding regarding cage size and diet.... there may be a reason all those other indigos in bigger cages on rodent diets aren't breeding every year.....

Let’s not forget that the Indigo spends the bulk majority of its time underground in a 2x2 if not smaller. Robert unlike so many others has been willing to share what has worked, with you all. With so many people having trouble feeding hatchlings and having marginal breeding success it might behoove some of the critics to actually listen more closely and modify the method to suit their collection. We tend to humanize the snake rather than realizing that a 2x2 may be one key to unlocking the mystery and Robert was selfless enough to share what he knows, hats off Robert keep up the good work…..Bill

First, come on folks, either give us a real name or don't post; its that simple. No one cares to hear from someone who can't give either provide a REAL name or a name period. Yes, "Mr. Bruce" should be commended for looking outside the box to find new ways to work with animals that have traditionally been hard to raise; I do mean that and he has enjoyed SOME success with this species. The previous posts claim about his success compared to other breeders is perposterous; period. And, if any of these, um, I'll keep it clean, fellas read current research they would know that indigos do NOT spend all of their time in a 2 x 2 foot area; what kind of crap is that! These animals have HUGE ranges compared to similarly sized animals. I'm going to step aside and hold the rest of my comments because I've got many...

Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center

>>Let’s not forget that the Indigo spends the bulk majority of its time underground in a 2x2 if not smaller. Robert unlike so many others has been willing to share what has worked, with you all. With so many people having trouble feeding hatchlings and having marginal breeding success it might behoove some of the critics to actually listen more closely and modify the method to suit their collection. We tend to humanize the snake rather than realizing that a 2x2 may be one key to unlocking the mystery and Robert was selfless enough to share what he knows, hats off Robert keep up the good work…..Bill
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Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center at Elawa Farm
Lake Forest, IL

Someone said that we are jealous, but that's not the case. Offended is probably more like it. He came here & and proclaimed to be the best indigo breeder in the world & that's just a rediculous thing to say!

Eric
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If Jesus is your co-pilot, you'd better change seats!

Dear Eric,

I'm sorry to have offended you.

I never proclaimed myself to be the best Indigo breeder. I do breed Eastern Indigos and I did have a good year in 2005. Contrary to what you might think, I would actually prefer it if there were more breeders of Eastern Indigos, and a larger captive-bred population of Eastern Indigos in North America.

As far as 2006 goes, most of my fourteen adult females look like they are gravid right now. Still, I never count my hatchlings until the eggs pip. Many breeders have had good seasons only to be skunked the next.

Robert Bruce.

My name is Bill Ried from Paola Kansas.
I network with people from the Fort worth Zoo, San Diego Zoo, Gladys Porter Zoo. Omaha Zoo and so on.Public and private zoos from around the world. I do research on thermal regulation of reptiles in the wild which I have been doing for about ten years. I work with four species of Drymarchon , Locality Spilotes and Pseustes. My focus is Central and South American large colubrids, mostly Sighthunters. My message is simple it is ok not to condone practices you find offensive or cruel but don’t base your assumptions on second hand information. You are only seeing a small part of the picture and Mr. Bruce although unorthodox has simply offered what he has done in a transparent fashion without attacking other peoples view or credibility. No body is arguing that there are better ways to start offspring or house animals but he has offered a perspective that adds to the pool of information thus furthering the science behind some mysterious behavior which in meant to benefit us all. How would you feel if you had just achieved what he has just to have people dump on you.

I agree, that was well said. As for cage size, we would all like to keep out animals in larger enclosures that more closely mimic the wild, but that doesn't mean that 2x2 cages are too small for adult indigos. Important not to confuse what is psychologically necessary for you enjoy your exhibit from what the animal needs, a mistake some of these posters make.

Calculate the number of hours a diurnal snake that inhabits burrows spends in tiny quarters, and no matter day range and home range data, you'll find 2x2 is more space than indigos spend most of their lives in. The main issue with cage size is sanitation - a tiny cages need more frquent cleaning and disinfecting; but really, a 2x2 cage versus 6x3 cage is not a significant different from the snake's perspective.

That said, once again, I use larger cages whenever possible.

Sorry, I just gotta...

Indigos in the wild utilize subteranian voids of infinite spacial, and dimensional variety. Most commonly, as far as we know, the gopher tortoise burrow. However, they are not positivly confined to this space. They have the ability to exit, and roam, and hunt, and search for a mate, and deficate whenever the urge strikes them. Males will cover mile upon mile in the wild. I cannot imagine keeping my 7ft male indigo in a 2x2 container. During mating season, he would rub his nose OFF! My indigos have 2x2 boxes, just to hide in. They always come out into the open portion of the cage [6' x 3'] to deficate, and etc. Even if they spent 99% of their lives underground, they still have the ability to stretch out in the extensive tunnels, created by gopher tortoises, and other animals. And a gopher tortoise burrow can be more than 50 ft. long. This also alows them to move back and forth to find the correct temperature zone. And they can exit whenever they want. There simply is no comparison to his methods, and what they experience in the wild.

If you cram a 6-8 foot adult indigo into a 2x2 box, feed it only chicken necks, and then let the fecal matter build up for nearly a month before you clean it,...well, I just don't see how that could possibly be good for the animal, or scientificly correct, at all. And most people would agree that this sounds less than humane, hence the Bruce bashing. I just don't see how anyone in their right mind could disagree. And I'm not attacking him. I'm trying to discourage others from following in his footsteps.

Housing adult Drymarchon in a 2x2 enclosure is absurd & downright cruel. Even if the snakes can survive in this setup it doesnt justify it in my book.The posters in this thread gushing about Mr Bruces success & knowledge are certainly entitled to their respective opinions, I personally would NEVER keep any of my Drymarchon under these conditions.

First, great response for the last post! As far as the first person with the extensive connections with various zoos (just for the record, I do too), for someone who supposedly has extensive "field experience" to say that a 2 x 2 cage is perfectly adequate for an indigo is telling me that they DON'T GET OUT INTO THE FIELD ENOUGH!! I spend much of my time in the field with various herp related research I am doing (as it ties into my Curatorial duties at the wildlife center/museum I run). Yes, I am sure that terrestrial herps spend considerable time in a subterranean environment, HOWEVER, as the previous post suggests, they have OPTIONS and UTILIZE THOSE OPTIONS REGULARLY. Sure, a 6' x 3' cage, when compared to the vastness of land that an eastern indigo actually covers, is tiny, it is still far superior than CRAMMING a 7' top end predator into a 2' x 2' cage; that's absolutely absurd. These animals have an inquisitiveness that goes far beyond what the first post alluded to people not being anthropomorphic, it is just a matter of fully understanding the psychological needs of the animal. I'm sure an indigo will thrive in a sweater box, breed, eat chicken crap, sit in its own crap for long periods of time and do all of the things that would lead us to believe that this method works and is "successful" but by whose standards? There are certain inherent responsibilities that we as keepers must take seriously when it comes to keeping certain types of herps; particularly one like an eastern indigo (or any dry for that matter). In the end, these supposed successful breeders will just be pumping out inferior/weak animals. Personally, I couldn't even CRAM my 8 1/2' male couperi into a 2' x 2' space if I wanted to!

Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center
Lake Forest, IL

>>Sorry, I just gotta...
>>
>>Indigos in the wild utilize subteranian voids of infinite spacial, and dimensional variety. Most commonly, as far as we know, the gopher tortoise burrow. However, they are not positivly confined to this space. They have the ability to exit, and roam, and hunt, and search for a mate, and deficate whenever the urge strikes them. Males will cover mile upon mile in the wild. I cannot imagine keeping my 7ft male indigo in a 2x2 container. During mating season, he would rub his nose OFF! My indigos have 2x2 boxes, just to hide in. They always come out into the open portion of the cage [6' x 3'] to deficate, and etc. Even if they spent 99% of their lives underground, they still have the ability to stretch out in the extensive tunnels, created by gopher tortoises, and other animals. And a gopher tortoise burrow can be more than 50 ft. long. This also alows them to move back and forth to find the correct temperature zone. And they can exit whenever they want. There simply is no comparison to his methods, and what they experience in the wild.
>>
>>If you cram a 6-8 foot adult indigo into a 2x2 box, feed it only chicken necks, and then let the fecal matter build up for nearly a month before you clean it,...well, I just don't see how that could possibly be good for the animal, or scientificly correct, at all. And most people would agree that this sounds less than humane, hence the Bruce bashing. I just don't see how anyone in their right mind could disagree. And I'm not attacking him. I'm trying to discourage others from following in his footsteps.
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Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center at Elawa Farm
Lake Forest, IL

No one is condoning those practices if you read more careful. The message is stick to the subject matter and quit picking on people to elevate yourself.

Someone here said (I think it may have been you but if not, I apologize):

"mark of psychologically, physically happy reptiles is that they breed well. So the proof is in the pudding regarding cage size and diet.... there may be a reason all those other indigos in bigger cages on rodent diets aren't breeding every year....."

That's the biggest pile of indigo crap I have ever heard. It is well known that an animal's urge to reproduce is one of the strongest urgest known to all living beings. That means that an indigo, kept in suboptimal conditions (you can interpret that is meaing "kept in filth and crampt conditions" can and probably will still reproduce. Does that make that animal "psychologically and physically happy". Who really needs to wake up?! I would normally try my best to bite my lip and move on but this has really gotten under my skin because I would hate to see some newbie reading this crud and thinking that its okay to feed their indigos chicken necks and kept in a 2 x 2 box. So, if that constitutes "picking on other people" (yow, sensitive folks we have here) in order to elevate myself (I'm about as elevated as the indigos I keep!) then so be it. If the pompous attitude of the original post had been a bit more humble in his remarks, we probably would have never had gotten this far in this ridiculous thread.

>>No one is condoning those practices if you read more careful. The message is stick to the subject matter and quit picking on people to elevate yourself.
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Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center at Elawa Farm
Lake Forest, IL

That was not me. Apology accepted. First and foremost we are a community and there are ways to change opinion without making others feel outside the fray. We can be examples without chastising people who have a more scientific approach. After all Bruce has not addressed cage size and for us to assume he uses 2x2 based on hearsay is not giving him a chance. I prefer to get my point across by helping and offering help. There are times to take a stand but standing on second hand information and not asking for clarification from the targeted individual is not the way I do business.

I couldn't agree with you more. Mr. Bruce did share some of his husnbandry information a while ago for which I was not in agreement but I don't believe he addressed cage size so that is one area that a clarification would be nice to get. So, with that being said, I think we can agree that we are indeed a community of folks who share a common passion and we do need to work together. But, if there is something glaring in someone's regimen that I (or anyone for that matter) feel needs more discussion, I don't see a problem with respectfully disagreeing or questioning once husbandry program; perhpas this thread was one that was not handled as well as it could have.

>>That was not me. Apology accepted. First and foremost we are a community and there are ways to change opinion without making others feel outside the fray. We can be examples without chastising people who have a more scientific approach. After all Bruce has not addressed cage size and for us to assume he uses 2x2 based on hearsay is not giving him a chance. I prefer to get my point across by helping and offering help. There are times to take a stand but standing on second hand information and not asking for clarification from the targeted individual is not the way I do business.
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Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center at Elawa Farm
Lake Forest, IL

once again, it would be great is people who post actually carefully read the post before replying....I said Robert has enjoyed more success this year than anyone else, and to my knowledge that's true, and speaks for itself. I didn't say anything more superlative than that. You don't get major breeding success from a quirky species unless you're doing something right, and willing to try new techniques.

I'm an animal ecologist, have worked extensively with Pits and rare tortoises in the field and captivity for many years, by the way.

Dr. Craig Stanford
Professor, Biological Sciences, USC,
Research Asssoc., LA County Natural Hist. Museum
and
director, Jane Goodall Research Center, USC

Nice to meet you Craig Stanford. Bill Ried President of Atrox Animal Technologies Inc.

How do you define "major success"? Is it really all that difficult to produce large amounts of offspring from the nations largest private indigo breeding colony? Buy lots of adults, and you too can experience lots of success. It's just a matter of numbers.

All of my adults except one were raised by me starting as hatchlings or juveniles. I obtained my first Eastern Indigo hatchling in 1996 from Bill Corwin here in California. Raising an Eastern Indigo from a hatchling takes time, effort, and patience.

Finding adults is much harder. Also, you never know what adult Indigos have been exposed to in other people's collections, (which frequently include wild-caughts). For this reason, I try to advise all new snake owners to purchase only captive-bred animals.

Robert Bruce.

I would not use many of the techniques this breeder uses to raise and keep indigos.

Doug Taylor

>>I had a banner year for Eastern Indigo hatchlings in 2005.
>>
>>I discovered an interesting (but potentially risky) technique to get many of them started feeding. After hatching, I kept the hatchlings in groups of roughly five to six in sweater boxes. Immediately after their first shed, I dropped several live newborn rat pinkies into each box. Just after the first shed seems to be a time when the hatchlings are predisposed to start feeding. When one hatchling would decide to attack a pinky, the other hatchlings in the cage would see this and their own feeding responses would be stimulated. I would routinely see one hatchling dragging a pinky around the cage with a few other hatchlings chasing after.
>>
>>The next day I would remove the animals that had fed into individual cages. After about three or four weeks old, some of the hatchlings will start to atttempt to consume each other. I had known of this possibility, but I am one to test what I believe may be hearsay. Let's just say I verified this to be true the hard way.
>>
>>Those animals that wouldn't take unscented pinkies got another try at goldfish scented pinkies, a day or two later. This nearly doubled the number of feeding hatchlings. I got more than half of my hatchlings started in this way, by two weeks after hatching.
>>
>>I just finished taking care of the people on my waiting list, but I still have plenty of hatchlings. They are mostly the red throat form, as currently all of my adults are red throats. Being six months old now, most of them are three to five times their original size. I regretfully sold my all-black adults (one male and three females) last year when I was in a difficult financial situation. I am attempting to rebuild my all-black population of adults.
>>
>>I have been busy with so many hatchlings and I haven't posted for several months, but I will try to start posting again. Right now is mating time for my colony, and I am almost finished with the second matings of my 14 adult females. I now believe that a third mating is pointless, as the eggs will be too far along in maturing for this to accomplish anything.
>>
>>Good luck to everyone, Robert Bruce.

Dear Doug,

My initial post in this thread only described one technique.

Your statement is so general, having no specifics or justification, that it seems to be an instance of one breeder using his reputation to attack and lower the reputation of another. To me, and to everyone who keeps and loves Eastern Indigos, that is unfortunate.

I would like to ask you to try to confine your judgements to the topic of the initial post. If you can specify your position, and justify it, that would also be nicer.

Thank you, Robert Bruce.

Robert Bruce the man,
I have had an opportunity to meet and talk in detail about snakes with a great many breeders, zookeepers and hobbyists. Robert has a PhD in chemistry if I am not mistaken and spoke more in depth about snakes than anyone I have ever encountered. Just one example is that Eggs are alkaline (calcium) and medium for hatching is either alkaline, neutral or acid base and unlike chicken eggs which sit on a rather dry surface snake eggs being in a moist environment would have a chemical reaction with the medium on which they sit! Like vinegar and baking soda react. He also does studies on how much moisture is absorbed by eggs and when. This example does not even scratch the surface of his knowledge and for those of you privileged enough to meet him in person will cherish the experience for years if not a lifetime. For those of you who base their opinion on the opinion of others are short sighted and may miss an opportunity of a lifetime. I apologize to you Robert for sharing without your consent but the ignorance is deafining.

In my opinion, there are three major factors that came together to make this technique work so well.

Firstly, there is a "feeding window" for the hatchling Eastern Indigo. The term "window" implies both a start and an end. My feeling is that the opening of the feeding window is immediately after first shed. The reason I am reporting this as just a feeling of mine is because I have not ever tried getting Easterns started feeding before their first shed. What I have experienced is a strong tendency of my Eastern hatchlings to start feeding at this time, providing the necessary cues to feeding are present.

The end of the feeding window is not definite. In my experience however, there is a time after which the hatchlings actually become more difficult to get started. This is my suggestion as the end of the feeding window. This time may be at three or four weeks after hatching.

For me, this means that I should try to focus my efforts getting the hatchlings started during this window, or my work will then become more difficult.

Secondly, something I hadn't mentioned previously, is that I have noticed that Eastern Indigos are greatly aroused by the smell of blood (literally). On my first hatch, years ago, I got all of the hatchlings started on pinky rats, but only after scenting their heads with chicken blood. I later found that simply chicken scent, like meat, skin, or organ scent, would not do it. It had to be blood.

In observing the effect of scenting pinky rats with goldfish, I have noticed that the most effective part of the goldfish is the blood as well. I freeze/thaw goldfish, and then crush them with a hemostat to scent pinkies. If the hemostat is placed over the gills and squeezed, blood is released from the gill cavities. This is more effective than any other part of the fish.

Using the method I described at the initial post, when one hatchling of mine attacked an unscented pinky rat, one of the attractants to the other hatchlings in the cage undoubtedly was the scent of blood. This is the reason, in my opinion, that splitting or braining pinkies is also more effective.

Thirdly, what I had mentioned previously, is that the sight (literally) of one hatchling attacking a pinky stimulates the feeding responses of other hatchlings in the same cage. The hatchlings I saw chasing after another hatchling with a pinky in its mouth were acutely visually focused on the hatchling and struggling pinky. To me, this is additional testimony to the intelligence of the Eastern Indigo, even as a young hatchling.

What I showed here is that it is safe to put Eastern Indigo hatchlings together under certain conditions. Firstly they should be together from hatch. Since they are together with other hatchlings from their earliest moments, the animals become habituated to each other, and therefore are not as likely to associate their fellow hatchlings as food items.

Secondly, they should be supplied with acceptable food items immediately after their first shed (maybe 10 to 14 days old). Those animals that are going to feed have something other than another hatchling to try to consume.

Thirdly, at three weeks after hatching, the hatchlings should all be separated into individual cages whether they are feeding or not. Those hatchlings that have not started feeding by then may be so hungry that they attempt to consume another hatchling.

Much of the discussion in this thread has nothing to do with the topic that I originally wrote about, and is based on hearsay (factual or otherwise). Soon I will initiate a valid discussion on cage size, and we can talk about diet as well, both of which subjects I also have experiences with and opinions about. At that time, everyone will have a chance to react, or respond, about the factual information I will bring. Before we do that though, I would like to put up the method I used to get the other half of my hatchlings started, which I am sure will interest everyone.

I do, however, applaud such spirited discussion.

Robert Bruce.

My hunch is that a Gravid female indigo in the wild will lay her eggs next to other eggs so that her hatchlings have a meal waiting. It would make a great study one I might take up. I have heard that many Indigo breeders use cornsnake hatchlings to start their Indigo. It is a shame such a low value is placed on them seems they are all Gods creatures. Thank you for sharing got me thinking..Bill

"My hunch is that a Gravid female indigo in the wild will lay her eggs next to other eggs so that her hatchlings have a meal waiting."

hi bill,

i think this would most likely work in reverse. females depositing a clutch next to an existing clutch would put their own offspring in jeopardy, mainly because the previous clutch would most likely be ahead in development. it seems very likely that this behavior pattern would be selected against before it could spread into a population.

an interesting series of observations related to this topic, however, is one where females tend to lay their eggs in areas where they themselves hatched. when i worked with Sceloporus in Colorado, each year females would move to areas often outside of their breeding season homerange to deposit eggs. each female going to their own specific place for each of three years. analogous to what salmon do.

matt

Read more careful. I did not spescify which type of eggs.

"Read more careful. I did not spescify which type of eggs."

sorry bill, my bad. i assumed that we were still talking about cannibalism.

matt

Did you ever stop and think that their first meal in the wild is mostlikley a weaker litter mate!

why dont you call up the CDFG and tell them you are opposed to their profiling and harassment techniques used on naturalists in the field (come out to CA and you will find out what I mean). Or how about making a stink about how they stretched a rosy boa neonate in the bathroom at a reptile show (killing it)so they could take a picture of it and show it was longer than the legal limit. The "well known" person who suffered from this episode was wrongfully cited and had his career ruined, he then shot himself in the head.
Ive seen ALOT of your posts Rob, from when you were asking for advice on setting up your animal park to the flaming of many people who come to the various forums asking reasonable questions. Like others have posted, keep it to the topic, dont bash people for trying something new. These forums arent meant to be used as character assasination venues. Remember, YOU came here in the beginning asking for help and sharing your finds, why not have respect for the others who do this as well?
It seems like everytime I come to these forums you have some profound wisdom to share that is based SOLELY on your experience.
After all, if Bruce doesnt mind losing one or two to accidents or trials then so be it, he bred the animals so the loss is limiited to himself.

As far as losing our "national treasures", geeez is everyone in the dark about the real problem?? Its habitat loss people, instead of bashing a breeder who is doing a heck of job with propagation of this species you should be addressing the HUGE loss of habitat that these animals are forced to deal with. It amazes me that people are still confused about the real dangers to our wildlife and wild places and totally irritates those of us who actively work to preserve and protect the resources.

I write this because Im sick and tired of seeing the BS that seems to follow these forums around. Get informed before you assasinate someone's character.

I concur with some of this – except for the notion that being concerned about one thing, precludes one from being concerned about another – that if a person is concerned about the treatment of a captive animal, they can’t possibly be concerned about the real threats to the species in the wild.

The two concerns are not mutually exclusive.

Rob had already placed in this thread why he is concerning his efforts toward conservation of habitat. For some reason, the post was deleated.

I personally have not really seen much "bashing" in this thread...only lots of talk about it. What I do see is a variety of opinion and it often times makes for good information.

If Mr. Bruce would like to put his own animals in jeopardy I suppose it is his own risk...but I doubt there was any thought there would not be those who would be opposed to it.

I think anyone who has worked with difficult feeding snakes has used snakes as a food source. Where I see people were upset was the neglect or lack of concern. There are obviously safer options for feeding these animals and they were fed in this environment which appeared to be beacuase of the lack of concern for them and a somewhat "lazy" attempt to get the babies established. I think people who have had other success with raising up babies are obligated to share their method as well. I would certainly not want Mr. Bruce's success be seen as the best or only way to get babies going. I noticed Mr. Bruce did not claim this to be the best or only way, he only shared his experience. I think the opposing response was somewhat necessary.

I do not personally know Mr. Bruce and I do not mean any disrespect and how he raises his animals is up to him...but I do see how others can disagree with it.

The hostility of these forums can be rather upsetting but unless there is blatant name calling I would tend to think the variation of opinions can be an educational experience.

I would like to read through all methods other people have had success with and gather information to form my own opinion from there.

Personally, I would not have allowed baby indigos to be eaten by each other because it would make me feel like I did not put forth enough personal effort. But I have not had an attempts at raising hatchling indigo snakes so I have no room to speak on the subject aside from my own prediction of what I would do. I have raised up stubborn snakes and I will say feeding off other snakes has been somewhat of a "last resort." It is not so much as a lack of "respect for all Gods creations" as it was put before. Only a logical response to an animal you are determined to raise successfully. If it was because of the former response we would not be feeding rats. It seems monetarily logical one would feed a "cheaper" snake than an eastern indigo if the situation makes it necessary to feed off snakes.

I will admitt, it does seem a bit "wrong" to purposely keep snakes in an environment which would allow for them to be eaten unless it is your determination for them to be eaten. The comment which struck me a little "odd" was how Mr. Bruce mentioned he was one to take risks himself. Yes, it was his risk in losing the snakes he bred...but the statement did seem a bit off color. Just being honest.

On the conservation issue it was mentioned how genetics play a huge roll in this. The mass breeding of a few lines really is not doing any good as redistribution is the last resort. And lots of genetics work needs to be done prior to any kind of redistribution.

For the sake of allowing others to work with these animals in a captive setting and personal enjoyment, I think the breeding of D. couperi is great. As a consertation measure...I agree habitat conservation is where we should push our efforts.

What happens in the wild has a direct coloration on our captive animals since the hatchlings are hardwired to do what they would in the wild. There are many examples of symbiotic relationships in the wild and it would make for some fun and enlightening research.

How can one guy alienate so many sucessfull snake breeders?

He has a right to his methods. I would not use the same methods. I have been keeping Couperi since 1993.Guess I know a Little about it. Rob has sage advice. Doug also. Nuff said.

Sincerely,

Fredrick Albury