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question about cannibalism

goregrind Nov 28, 2005 05:39 AM

is there any ways to make a kingsnake not see snakes as food?
i want a king but bacause there cannibals it would make me nervous to have in the same room as my other snakes.

if you took a hatchlingking and for about 10 minutes a week handle it with an adult corn, and only feed the king ft mice its whole life. by the time its an adult will it be noncannibalistic, or will it make a meal of the first small snake it sees?
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jake

my addiction:
2 normal ball pythons (lazlo and izzy)
1 amelenistic corn snake (mazy)
0.1 blizzard corn (blizz)

Replies (16)

stinkypinky Nov 28, 2005 06:20 AM

Hi Jake

Its in the genes , so will always be cannibalistic.
but there is always one that goes against the rule, as a young kid about 13 i housed a king and corn together for obout a year without any trouble, they were roughly about the same size and the king was real gentle, (BUT as they outgrew the viv i seperated them into a viv each, i put the corn in with the king while i cleaned the corns viv and smash bang wallop there was my lovely corn inspecting the kings stomach).

So there you go, the king never forgot it was a fantastic skilled killer of other snakes.

Paul..
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Pinky's taste nice,only if there fresh..

goregrind Nov 28, 2005 06:28 AM

i was thinking of buying a pair of mexican blacks to breed to corns but i dont want to lose my corns, im attached to them
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jake

my addiction:
2 normal ball pythons (lazlo and izzy)
1 amelenistic corn snake (mazy)
0.1 blizzard corn (blizz)

ZFelicien Nov 28, 2005 06:56 AM

it is very possible that they can breed but u have to be ontop of your game... keep a close eye on them while they breed and read up/ask around about "trickery" when it come to hybrids.

~Z
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Bklyn's Finest Brooksi & Goini Fanatic

crimsonking Nov 28, 2005 12:19 PM

I believe a friend in Canada has done that exact cross. (The nigrita X corn)I'll email and ask just how she went about it and let you know.
In my personal experience my nigrita have such a feeding response to anything, I'd doubt I'd even try.
Sometimes however when the timing and conditions are right, you can make it happen.
Most likely the corn was a male and bigger than the female.
:Mark
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Surrender Dorothy!

www.crimsonking.funtigo.com

Rtdunham Nov 28, 2005 03:55 PM

>>i was thinking of buying a pair of mexican blacks to breed to corns but i dont want to lose my corns, im attached to them
>>-----
>>jake

Jake, can you explain why if you are attached to your corns you would want to hybridise them? Are corns not good enough in their own right? I'm not a locale-specific fanatic, but i sure would like to see more respect for natural forms. It's always seemed to me that hybridising shows a disregard / disrespect for both the species involved, since ALL the subsequent generations are tainted. I'll say no more, as monty python's character says, as i know this is a topic for the hybrid form, not this forum.

peace
terry

>>
>>my addiction:
>>2 normal ball pythons (lazlo and izzy)
>>1 amelenistic corn snake (mazy)
>>0.1 blizzard corn (blizz)

candb Nov 28, 2005 06:59 PM

Jake you always have these crazy breeding ideas, its interesting watching your ideas, especially the one in the hybrid forum about the python hybrid idea you had.
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Cameron

FR Nov 28, 2005 10:08 AM

Cannibilism is an odd and misunderstood word, in this case, its taken out of context. Its actually based on humans consuming humans. It means consuming your own kind.

Well snakes eat different types of snakes, so a kingsnake consuming a corn snake is not cannibilism, in any from. Cannibilism would be kingsnakes consuming kingsnakes. But this does not normally happen either. OH before all the cards/letters/e-mails, come in to express their kingsnake ate another kingsnake. You need to understand some very important aspects.

First, in order for it to be cannibilism, the prey or food item(in captivity) must be considered the same type. But because of the difinition of the word, this is confusing. As who is calling what the same kind. Are you calling the prey item the same, or is the snake calling its prey the same. You may, but obviously the snake is not. The snake is calling what it ate, FOOD. You see, they do not have human rules, and try very hard to not be anthromorphic(guided by human behaviors) (your task is to convince the kingsanke that the corn snake is the same)

Snakes live in colonies(loose or tight) family groups, congregations, populations, what ever you want to call them. In these groups, kingsnakes do not eat eachother. You know, if they did, there would only be one giant kingsnake in any population. As seen by many here, you often find wild kings in the company of other kings. Why? I have never seen a kingsnake in nature eat another kingsnake, that is, have one in its belly. Not of its own family group or kind or congregation, or population or other human word.

So heres the deal, they are not cannibilistic, in the sense, they do not eat what they call their own. They eat the OTHERS. You see, it doesn't matter what we call them, it matters what "they" call them.

So why is that important to you? because all you have to do is convince a kingsnake that a cornsnake is a kingsnake of its own group and bingo bango, your in river city. Actually its very easy. Raise them together since hatchling, and never allow them to starve. You see a starving snake will indeed consume one of its kind. But so will a starving person. Its kinda forgiven if your starving to death, its survival afterall. The problem is, humans are stupid as a stone about snakes. They feed them on schedules and not hunger. Like every five days or two weeks, then they forget and go out snake hunting or to a party, then that time doubles, hmmmmmmmm someone ask the snake about this. Or they feed on a schedule and the temps change as summer comes and do not increase food intake. Hence starving while feeding, this is a very interesting trick, humans are so so dumb. They also feed by habit, that is, a pinkie, then the snake grows and its hotter out and its a double wammy, they are still feeding a pinkie, which is now half of what is was, combined with a higher metabolism. Humans, so so naive.

So yes, its easy, just raise them together and do not let them starve. But always keep in mind. What your doing is changing the natural behaviors of an animal, so do not get mad if it fails. As it will not work all the time. Just most. Awwww but such are animals. Consider, if you were raised with a goat, would you eat it. You may not want to, thats natural, but if your starving, you will. FR

ps. primitive tribes often called themselves, "the people"(their word for it) which actually meant, that other tribes were not people, as in different. So they ate them, as no one told them to consider other tribes as humans(the people) and not animals. You see, they "the people" considered all animals that were not their tribe, animals and therefore food. Eating animals was normal. On the other hand, their was also ritualistic cannibilism too, Aztecs etc.

Stealing members of other tribes was also commonly practived, but once one was raised with "the people" it became "the people".

stinkypinky Nov 28, 2005 11:25 AM

I agree with most of what you say , but iv found (many times) that an adult kingsnake will show you just how cannabalistic it is when you add some of its own baby sibs into its viv. well fed or not.

Some are and some are not so Cannabalistic, in my book of study anyway.

Paul..
-----
Pinky's taste nice,only if there fresh..

FR Nov 28, 2005 12:11 PM

Its still a strong possibility you are not understanding your own test. First did you seperate the young from the mother, WHY". Test void. Are you sure your not starving the mother? most do not understand this in the least. If you fed her when she was hungry, that is, up to several times a day, then again, your test is void. You see, its still boiling down to you controlling or in your case possibly uncontrolling your own test. As well as not understanding "their" rules. Consider, they do not live by your(humans) rules, but instead by there own.

For instance, female snakes, are naturally starving after they lay. Hungry snakes in nature feed at will, not when they are starved. So a female will feed heavily, for a period, after she lays. Did you accomodate this?

Also a condition missed by most here is, snakes control hunger by at least two different ways, first to feed(of course) and second to lower their metabolism(decrease the need for food) In captivity, most of you forget to allow conservation which totally effects their natural behaviors.

So sir, without an understanding of natural snakes and their abilities, your captive tests may not be accurately representing them. In your case, your results reflected your conditions, now what were your conditions? And do your conditions reflect their normal behaviors.

Lets relate captivity to prisons, people in prisons do odd behaviors, which could include cannibalism, this may or may be be assoiated with starving. Its often caused by stresses so not readily understood.

Just to sticky the wickette, on really poor years(lack of prey) wild snakes will become starved and resort to cannibalism.

Also you set a rule, to break you supposed rule, I only need to show exception, As many of my old friends know, and in some kingsnake books, I kept my kingsnakes in colonies. I also raised them together, and I even raised them with other species(for the heck of it) I also tested canibalism with hatchlings, as mentioned in other posts here. So yes, I can and do show exception to your rule. Also as mentioned, nature shows exception as well. I already mentioned this. So many here will give you observations of kingsnakes in pairs or trios under AC. Why are they not eating eachother? Heck, I have found them in much greater numbers together and not a one ate the other.

Also, you can disagree all you want, the question is, whos right(or closer to right)? its not about agreeing, is it? FR

thomas davis Nov 28, 2005 02:15 PM

you DA'MAN i completely agree,,,when are you writing a book?
,,,,,,,,,thomas davis

Vip3ridae Nov 28, 2005 03:32 PM

Thomas I was thinking the EXACT same thing earlier this morning when I was talking to frank this morning. Not that frank is the only knowledgable person about king snakes or any snake on these forums but he IS the one that I understand and agree with most of the time. Serriously if the loves can get a book about cornsnakes out there then why can't you piece together a nice book that will sell numbers upon numbers here on KS. And then the information will get out and everyone or most people will keep reccomending your book. I know everyones busy and it's not like we can just write a book,have it edited then published but just something to consider... And thankyou for the reply below frank.

Rtdunham Nov 28, 2005 04:08 PM

>In these groups, kingsnakes do not eat eachother. You know, if they did, there would only be one giant kingsnake in any population.

If this logic is true, then there would be ONLY kingsnakes in an area that kingsnakes occup--or, at least, there would be NO specimens of any species that kingsnakes ever make a meal of. You are supporting an argument ("in these groups, kingsnakes do not eat each other"--it's actually an argument, or hypothesis, in my opinion, rather than a statement of fact)...anyway, you're supporting it with the observation that since there is NOT only one giant kingsnake in any kingsnake population, then no kings eat other kings in that group. If i were more of a student of philosophy and logic i'd know which false argument that is and could put a nifty name to it. Unfortunately, i'm not, and I can't. But it doesn't hold up to examination! If it WERE a valid argument, then the fact that populations include specimens of species other than kings would prove kings don't eat any specimens of any of those other species in that population. Obviously, the fact that kingsnakes don't eat ALL the specimens of any given species in no way proves that they never eat some specimens of that species.

I raise the issue only to encourage people to weigh for themselves ALL the ideas they read here, MINE INCLUDED.

I have a quote I like, from Bertrand Russell:

"The whole problem with the world
is that fools and fanatics
are always so certain of themselves,
but wiser people so full of doubts."

So be full of doubts, folks. It'll help you pass the SATs, get into MENSA, or at least formulate the best possible understanding of the animals you're working with.

peace
terry

VICtort Nov 28, 2005 12:42 PM

Dear Jake, you received authoritative responses with a lot of experience/wisdom behind them. Also consider, different genera of snakes might well be conditioned to avoidance behavior when the aroma/pheromones of Lampropeltis getula are wafting about. I have seen this behaviour many times, and I always try to wash my hands when handling snakes especially after handling Lampropeltis, why put other animals through the stress of being in proximity to a likely predator? I think it would be pretty weird for a cornsnake (for example) to be raised with predator it has coevolved with, a kingsnake), quite possibly stressful. Although possible by keeping both well fed, why do it? The other issue is hybrid breeding, often the result of "trickery" by switching partners etc., not necessarily the result of long term harmony in the captive environment. I guess my point is it can be done but I don't see why one would want to, there is something to lose and not a lot of gain as I see it...Good luck, Vic

goregrind Nov 28, 2005 01:56 PM

whats to lose in hybrid breeding? i see a small gain, but no loss
-----
jake

my addiction:
2 normal ball pythons (lazlo and izzy)
1 amelenistic corn snake (mazy)
0.1 blizzard corn (blizz)

Rtdunham Nov 28, 2005 04:35 PM

>>whats to lose in hybrid breeding? i see a small gain, but no loss
>>-----
>>jake

Just a couple examples:

NONE of your offspring or their offspring can ever again be said to be a corn snake or black king snake.

Some WILL erroneously be misidentified in the future, if not by well-meaning experiemnters like yourself, by less-educated owners (and some WILL end up in those hands, because their numbers will increase exponentially, unless you intend to keep them all yourself, never breed them, never part with the results of those breedings or any and all subsequent breedings).

What's that matter? Well, somewhere down the road, someone will breed their "red rat snake" (which is not) to another red rat snake, and the results will be puzzling, maybe exciting, maybe disappointing, but confusing in the least. Then, where will THAT generation of babies be distributed?

For people who truly value red rats, here's another concern: What if another red rat morph shows up someday, but it's one that looks a lot like some of the hybrid babies or babies from subsequent generations of that hybrid pool? Some people will say, "i think that new red rat morph is the result of hybridizing." A chance for new excitement and discovery in red rats can be tainted forever. (a better example is the graybanded kingsnake, a very, very popular snake in herpetoculture, with people working with many specific locales, others working with legitimate (pure) hypomelanistic and anerythristic traits, etc. What if an amelanistic specimen was caught or hatched from someone's collection? What once would have been huge news in that segement of snake keepers, would now be almost un-notable, because people have produced albino hybrids (grayband x ruthveni, for example) that do, in fact, look very much like a genuine amel grayband--though they're not. That opportunity is lost forever, or nearly so. Is a little hybridizing experiment to satisfy one's curiosity worth that sort of consequence for hundreds of other breeders?

The following is just my opinion: I view it like releasing a virus. You know the old adage about "when you sleep with someone, you sleep with everyone they've slept with"? Well, the same is true about breeding from hybrids, and I think that's unfortunate. Just my opinion, trying to give an honest answer to your honest question.

Most of all, though, it seems to me if people admire a species, love it, respect it, value it, whatever, that appreciation should lead them to preserve it, not diminish it. (and btw, someone may counter, "what about morphs, terry, you breed albino and hypo and anerythristic hondos, doesn't that diminish hondos?" That's a fair question, and different people will disagree on the answer, but let me try to give what i consider to be a fair answer: We KNOW the first hypo hondos came from a wild-caught animal; we KNOW anerythristics trace back to a wild-caught specimen; I can't trace the albinos back to a wild-caught specimen but given the frequency with which albinos occur in nature (see Bechtel's book on color variants, for example) the odds are that numerous albinos have occurred in the wild and that means the odds of even a single imported animal in the past having harbored one albino gene is considerable. So preserving the morphs that have occurred, by selective breeding in captivity, is merely preserving something that occurs in the wild. And though people cite one or two examples of cross-species hybridizing in the wild, all i can say is that I've not yet seen evidence i thought was compelling. Moreover, any such discovery SINCE captive hybridizing began can't be credited to a wild-occurring event (no matter how remote the area, imho)...and that's another reason captive hybridizing is unfortunate. It denies our ability to draw conclusions about natural events (note that the mere existence of snake-keeping and breeding by increasingly mobile humans, abetted by escapes and ill-conceived releases, also makes it almost impossible now to identify range extensions in nature).

food for thought
terry

wftright Nov 28, 2005 10:21 PM

First, you seem concerned that if you keep a kingsnake in a room with other snakes, the kingsnake will eat the other snakes. I'm not as experienced as the other folks here, but the first problem I see is that you need to have your snakes in escape-proof cages anyway. If your kingsnake can't get out of his cage, he can't get into another snake's cage to make a meal of him (or her). Likewise, if your other snakes are in escape-proof cages, the kingsnake is not likely to be able to get into their cages to eat them. If your only concern is not having the kingsnake eat the rest of your collection, the best answers for you have nothing to do with most of the discussion here. If you have good, secure cages, the problem will not arise.

Secondly, have you ever heard the poem about the seven blind men describing an elephant? One of them touches the elephant's trunk and concludes that an elephant is like a snake. Another touches the elephant's side and concludes that an elephant is like a wall. A third touches the elephant's leg and concludes that an elephant is like a tree. I forget the other four parts, but you get the idea. Looking at only one aspect of anything doesn't give a total answer.

The point of that illustration is that this thread has produced a wealth of information that I don't doubt at all, but I think we need to be hesitant in drawing conclusions from that information. We have anecdotal evidence suggesting that kingsnakes don't eat other kingsnakes and anecdotal evidence suggesting that they do eat other kingsnakes. Of course, each case mentioned began with a different set of conditions. In many of those cases, we could see those differences from a person's point of view. As FR points out, what appears different from a person's point of view may not be different from a snake's point of view and vice-versa. Until we have the results of many experiments that can show what the snakes' perspective is and can explore all of the factors from the snakes' perspective, we can't really predict anything at all about what your snake might do around other snakes. Furthermore, if we run those experiments, our results will likely point to probabilities rather than absolutes.

Those who've studied snakes in great depth have a better understanding of snake's point of view than you or I do, but even they are going to be wrong sometimes. I've been to conferences on metallurgy and corrosion and heard learned men argue the fine points of some corrosion mechanism. They've done similar experiments but had different results and have drawn different conclusions. Each has his adherents, but many of us remain somewhere in the middle. We see strengths and weaknesses in each argument. Mostly, we realize that without the time to understand the experiments in great depth, we really can't pass judgement on which side is right.

What do we do in these situations? When I come back from listening to one of these arguments at a conference or read the papers presented there, I ask myself whether the mechanism that they discuss could happen in my plant. Usually, underneath all of the arguments is enough information to show whether something can or cannot happen. If I know that it can't happen, I don't worry about it. If it can happen, I look for ways to stop it. If stopping it will be very expensive, then I have to learn more about whether the problem is truly likely to happen and what the consequences will be. If stopping it is cheap and easy, I just take steps to stop it.

The point of this story is that you have to decide how much risk you're willing to run in putting a kingsnake with another snake. FR's posts make it clear that there are conditions under which the kingsnake will not eat the other snake. Other posts suggest that you are running the risk of the kingsnake eating the other snake. Are you willing to take that risk?

In any case, I thank you for asking questions that have led to some interesting posts.

Bill
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It's not how many snakes you have. It's how happy and healthy you can keep them.

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