Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I don't get it? How? I search on google and on the GIS (Green Igauna society) web site and can't find anything... I know this is very newbish but I would like to know... If I don't get any replies I'll understand lol

well,i can't get into that for you....but i have heard the same before,about the following-heterodon.thamnophis.nerodia.storeria.diadophis...yep,they're all 'venomous',lol....these 'mad' "toxicologists" should probably come up with a new term other than 'venomous' for genera such as these....that would be a lot easier to change than the general public's mindset about the 'v' word.

While I am far from being as educated on "venom" as our PhD scientists working very hard on this research...I can help a little on this (I think).

On the notion of needing to come up with a new word other than the "V word” this is not the responsibility of the scientists involved in these studies nor does it apply to anything they are really doing or that they have found.

For our own personal sense we can call it widget juice if we want but what has been found is these animals have toxins which are produced from glands they have which act to destroy or shut down organs of a prey item once they have entered their body. We normally call this function "venom."

It has been mentioned these animals are not more harmful now that we are aware of these toxins so I do not know why people actually get worked up over this.

For your comment below, the answer is "No," pretty much everything is not venomous. If you read my entire post you responded to you would have noticed I explained why a toxin substance produced by an animal like human saliva is not”venom". Venom plays a specific roll once it enters an animal’s body and while saliva like in humans may have toxic and digestive properties...it is not acting like a venom.

Now in relation to this thread...I too am a bit confused why an animal which is primarily herbivorous has”venom." The research which is somewhat "groundbreaking" is the possibility of a primitive origin of venom. So with this knowledge (or hypothesis...not sure where it is now) we can see how it relates and why an animal could have a venom gland which is somewhat "obsolete."

With this in mind I can sort of see how some very strict literalist religious folks would not be quick to accept these findings...but I do not really understand why any person with any belief in adaptation could find this concept difficult once given the info.

I hope I am making sense of this and I certainly hope we get the pleasure of hearing from one of the venom experts on the subject.

Your post makes pretty good sense.

A few additional points: it has been found that the Iguania are venomous - this is a large group of lizards including agamas, anoles, iguanas, chameleons etc.. AFAIK, the green iguana itself has not been examined, ad given that it is a vegetarian, it would not be at all surprising if it turned out to have lost its toxin-secreting glands int he course of evolution, just as some colubrids and boids have lost theirs.

As far as the earlier comment about "mad toxinologists" having to come up with a new term is concerned... I don't see why we should fit reality around popular (mis-)conceptions. The simple fact is that "venomous" is not the same thing as "dangerous", and never has been. Everyone who reads this has hundreds of venomous animals living freely in his/her house. Venomous but harmless. What am I talking about? Spiders, of course, all of which are indisputably venomous, but all but a very few of which are entirely harmless unless you are a small insect. Get used to the same situation with many lizards and most snakes.

Cheers

WW
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WW Home

Dr. Fry explained this rather well (either in another forum or on his website forum, I can't remember which). His data shows that there is likely a single divergent source of venom in the reptile family tree. Some snakes evolved to make the most of it. Some snakes evolved so that it's a help in prey capture, but not as a defense. In lizards, some didn't really need to develope the organ as in the iguania (pogona barbata was the actual animal tested) and the venom gland remains as a sort of spongey tissue that oozes tiny amounts of venom. Other lizards have evolved the gland into an actual organ (is in the advanced venomous snakes) where venom is stored and secreted for use. Heloderms and newly, the varanids have been found to have this specialization.

As should be obvious, nothing has changed. Our pets have always been the same animals as they were before, but now our understanding of them is slightly greater.

Ian

Well...What took you so long?

Al
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"Snakes in Peru are not there for decoration, they really bite people."

Professor David Warrell, Omaha 10/21/05

Nice mangrove

We've got a colony of the really high yellow form of one of the three Aussie flavours in the indicus-complex. So many yellow dots its amazing. Greenish background colour and blueish heads. I'll post pictures later. Here's a picture though of Lexy and I with our two massive melanistic form of the lace monitor These two were the stars of the show. Between milking of them only five times, we ended up with a half a gram dry weight! That gave us heaps to do all the bioactivity studies.

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Dr. Bryan Grieg Fry
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Australian Venom Research Unit,
University of Melbourne
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Population and Evolutionary Genetics Unit,
Museum Victoria
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
http://www.venomdoc.com

'Milking' monitors!

Milking monitors with attitude!!

Please mommy, make the bad mind-pictures go away!

Seriously though ... I've seen photos/videos of snakes being 'milked' with a fang-through-membrane-into-tube technique ... but if Monitors do not have fangs ... how does one ... ummm ... "milk" them?

respects

Wes

= = = =
Note to Forum:
Never, ever 'google' monitor milking!
Never!
= = = ==

BGF Press that explains most everything ... I think ....

http://www.ansa.it/ambiente/notizie/fdg/200511171507220727/200511171507220727.html

Holy cow Bryan!! 100mg avg/milking dry weight. Thats huge when you think about it. Your just full of surprises!

Cheers!

Al
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"Snakes in Peru are not there for decoration, they really bite people."

Professor David Warrell, Omaha 10/21/05

>>Holy cow Bryan!! 100mg avg/milking dry weight.

It was 50 mgs from each, sorry I should have made it clear that I milked each one five times. So the half a gram was the result of ten milkings.

Cheers mat
B
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Dr. Bryan Grieg Fry
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Australian Venom Research Unit,
University of Melbourne
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Population and Evolutionary Genetics Unit,
Museum Victoria
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
http://www.venomdoc.com

Nice synopsis

Hi mate

>>Your post makes pretty good sense.
>>

Indeed it does.

>>A few additional points: it has been found that the Iguania are venomous - this is a large group of lizards including agamas, anoles, iguanas, chameleons etc.. AFAIK, the green iguana itself has not been examined, ad given that it is a vegetarian, it would not be at all surprising if it turned out to have lost its toxin-secreting glands int he course of evolution, just as some colubrids and boids have lost theirs.
>>

Actually, the green iguana does have protein secreting glands. We will be doing the cDNA library in one of the next rounds. Should be interesting!

>>As far as the earlier comment about "mad toxinologists" having to come up with a new term is concerned... I don't see why we should fit reality around popular (mis-)conceptions. The simple fact is that "venomous" is not the same thing as "dangerous", and never has been. Everyone who reads this has hundreds of venomous animals living freely in his/her house. Venomous but harmless. What am I talking about? Spiders, of course, all of which are indisputably venomous, but all but a very few of which are entirely harmless unless you are a small insect. Get used to the same situation with many lizards and most snakes.

Yeah, its a real shame to have to think of political implications brought about by ignorance. Of course, most of the people making the assinine laws are very superstitious and typically subscribe heavily to a mythology about some bearded hippie. Examining data and facts are not typically their strong points. If ignorance is bliss, why aren't more of those people happy?

Cheers
Bryan
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Dr. Bryan Grieg Fry
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Australian Venom Research Unit,
University of Melbourne
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Population and Evolutionary Genetics Unit,
Museum Victoria
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
http://www.venomdoc.com

and I'll send you the paper
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LOL I thought I would get one reply saying, "they just are,get lost newb", or something of that nature. THANKS for all the information and maybe others won't have to ask the same question because it's here already (although it's probably been asked several times). Pretty cool having a doctor answering to your post Thanks again guys.