Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hey guys,
I run a nonprofit reptile rescue so I usually work with much hardier herps like boas, pythons, sulcatas, monitors, etc. It is very rare that we get chemelons in, but we got a veiled in today with an eye problem. I have already asked a couple very experienced friends about this issue, but I was hoping I could get some more experienced feedback from you guys by posting a few pictures.

As you can see the eyes are both swollen shut. The poor guy has to be handfed because he obviously can't hunt if he can't see. The surrendering owner said he's still eating well when hand fed, and the little guy did have a healthy defication while climbing all over me today, so it seems like he is fairly healthy.

The cage he was in was glass but the lid was an open-air screen, so I'm thinking humidity may have been too low, which could play a factor. Also I'm told Vitamin A is probably too low so I'm going to dip his crickets in water and vitamin-A-rich-suppliments. If the eyes don't improve soon after that I plan on taking him to the vet, but often times I've found kingsnake is even better with diagnosing certain herps than the vet is, so I wanted to ask you guys first.

What would you reccomend?

Thanks!

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Jesse Rothacker
Forgotten Friend Reptile Sanctuary
Find out how YOU can get involved in reptile rescue...
www.forgottenfriend.org

Jesse,

I urge you to find a good experienced reptile vet in your area as soon as possible. Chameleons are not nearly as forgiving as many reptiles when it comes to health problems. Often when symtoms become apparent to the keepers, it is far to late to cure, and more than not, stop the problem.

The chameleon in question looks quite dehydrated. Keep looking at good caresheets and do your best to provide proper husbandry for the time being. If you can get one, I recomend getting an automatic misting system so you can regulate the water and humidity. I beleive veilds are generally a dryer species than most chameleons, but in this situation you would be best to give long misting shows a few times daily.

Remember to suppliment with Vitamin powder, Calcium, Vitamin D3 and make sure you are using a new UV bulb.

I'm sorry if I am repeating information you know, but it's all for the good of this boy there. I wish you good luck in your efforts.
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I agree with Will on the dehydration. His eyes are quite sunken. 1/2 hour long warm showers will help hydrate as an immediate step, but he should probably get subcutaneous fluids injections from the vet (which you might be able to take over once he shows you how so you don't have the vet visist expense). Did the previous keeper say just what he was eating and/or mention any supplements given?

You can get some Fluker's repta-aid (usually available at most chain pet stores for about $10). Follow the dosage instructions. I have found that once they get a taste they will lap it form the spoon. Be sure to get the one for insectivore's. www.flukerfarms.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=38

I would not wait on the vet visit, even a day. S/he will likely need to do blood work in order to check calcium level and other in order to treat properly and figure out what is going on with his eyes.

You can go to the chameleon resource link in my sig below for info and links to the best online resources for chameleons, as well as vet links. Very best of luck to you and please keep us posted.
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Chameleon Help & Resource Info

0.1 Veiled Chameleon - Luna. She's now hanging from her big jungle gym in the sky
1.0 Beardie - Darwin
0.2 felines - Kyndra and Lita
0.1 African Clawed Frog - Skipper
0.1 Mad. Hissers and she is on the loose!
0.1 Chilean Rose Hair Tarantula - Rosa Leigh
0.1 Goliath Bird-Eater Tarantula - Natasha
?.? Pinktoe Tarantula - no name yet

Thanks Lele. I'm glad someone else was able to reply besides myself.

The Repti-Aid suppliment was a good idea. Another product that I recomend is Exo-Terra Electrolyte (With Vit D3). It comes in varying bottle sizes. I have found this to be a miracle tool and some reptiles have show active improvements a day later. The taste of this is also disirable to reptiles.

Good luck with your hard times, because as all chameleon owners nknow or will find out, when it getas a little hard, its gets really hard.
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Thanks everyone for all your helpful advice. The majority of my reptile experience is with snakes, as well as the animals which come into the rescue like iguanas, beardies, montiors, gators, sulcatas, boxies, etc, so working with a sick chameleon is a learning experience for me. I am fortunate to have some very experienced friends to call in, including a full time AZA zookeeper, but the feedback from the kingsnake crowd is greatly appreciated and being put to great use

The previous owner did not feed the chameleon for five days before it came in, which would lend to it being so thin and dehydrated. This poor guy is not very cooperative with force feeding, but we were able to get him to eat six or seven crickets (after wetting and dusting them) and also got him to drink a little bit. I guess we will continue this method until his eyes open.

I've been told by a very experienced friend that mineral oil is a great natural lubricant to help loosen up eye problems. Anyone else have any thoughts on this?

This may sound like a silly question, but when you suggested "1/2 hour long warm showers will help hydrate " were you talking about putting him in the actual shower, or just filling a spray bottle with warm water and spraying for half an hour, or using a misting system?

To answer some of your questions, the former owner told me he used to dust crickets with some suppliment until he ran out, but wasn't sure which suppliment he used. We keep several on hand and right now I'm giving him ZooMed Reptivite which is a good multivitamin and ExoTerra Electrolyte. Also I'm replacing the UVB bulb because it's about a year old. I'm moving the cham from the glass tank to a Reptarium for better airflow, and I have a warm vaporizer for added humidity. I will be spraying him down quite a bit and making sure his basking temp is in the 90s and the rest is 70-80s, with humidity and shoot for humidity around 30-50.

Admittedly Chams are not my area of expertese so please tell me if you have some more good suggestions. I really appreciate the feedback so far. More updates to follow...hopefully it will be good news
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Jesse Rothacker
Forgotten Friend Reptile Sanctuary
Find out how YOU can get involved in reptile rescue...
www.forgottenfriend.org

I would be VERY cautious using concentrated vit A on him, especially as he's dehydrated and his kidneys may not be able to handle that. An overdose could kill him. I would have a vet check for kidney and liver function to see if there are clues to the origin of the swelling. Dehydrated chams have many eye problems and it may not be a vitamin issue. Can you ask the former owner what he dusted with? If they used a dust with high vit A you might just compound the problem. I know there are a couple of other eye swelling problems out there, even a viral infection, but I have never seen it or treated it. The safest course (especially as he's willing to eat and drink with help) would be lots of rehydration, basically healthy gutloaded feeders, maybe the Repta-aid, good UV, and patience.

Hey there man.

Everything these other two cats have said is etremely true... But you should also give him some electrolites as they are a good aide to rehydration. Also, be careful not to set the mister on too high a settin where as Chams are easily sustainable to respiration infections.

Good Luck, if you have any questions let me know.

Hey guys,

I wanted to give you some updates pics after feeding and drinking. I think he already looks a little bit better but there's a long way to go. He is going to the herp vet this afternoon and hopefully he'll have something to tell me besides what all the cham experts on this forum already have.

Also, I noticed one side of him is much brighter than the other. I am guessing this just has to do with the lighting/background being different on each side of him, and is quite normal, but I thought I'd mention it anyway. Is this pretty normal to have a cham brighten himself on one side while darkening himself on the other side all at the same time? Below are the pictures of each side of him to show how much contrast there is in color.

Also, how do you feel about handling veiled chams? I've read some care sheets that advise against it, and yet the surrendering owner said he did it frequently and the cham appears to be completely unstressed by it. Any thoughts on handling veileds?

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Jesse Rothacker
Forgotten Friend Reptile Sanctuary
Find out how YOU can get involved in reptile rescue...
www.forgottenfriend.org

Jesse,

I'm glad you followed up, because many peolpe leave it at that. Kind of a dissapointment when someone does that.

I too think he looks a little better. A vet check up should, should give some good insight into how you can make correct care for him, in his condition. I'm guessing that maybe fecals, bloodwork, and possibly an Xray would be done?

The extent of the colour change of one side to the other of the body is wuite noticiable. Actually, it isn't not noticible. I have seen this when basking. Very interesting!

All chameleons should have limited handling. Even the friendliest and tamest. You stated that the previous owner saw no signs of stress from handling... Sickness is directly related to being stressed.

Good luck Jesse, I hope you took some ideas that those above posters mentioned, they seem like good advice to me. Also, I suggest feeding butterworms to it. And if you can, maybe a few hornworms.
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Hey guys,

Had a chance to take this little guy to the herp vet today. He was actually surprised that things were as good as they are, because as you know, by the time a cham gets sick it's usually too late. Anyway the vet just gave me some antibacterial eye cream to apply and said to keep going with the current treatment of suppliments, and force feeding and drinking.

Which brings up my next question - how many large crickets should a cham like this eat every day? Usually he starts out chowing down on them like he's hungry and after five or six spits them out. Is that about normal?

We're also using a syringe with water and the electrolyte solution suppliment to keep him hydrated since he can't see well enough to find water, and isn't responding to spraying or anything. Any thoughts on how much water intake is normal for a veiled? We let it go into his mouth very slowly and he usually drinks a little then after a bit lets it flow out, so I'm guessing that's his way of telling us when he's not thirsty. Is that a good way to tell?

Thanks cham fans,
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Jesse Rothacker
Forgotten Friend Reptile Sanctuary
Find out how YOU can get involved in reptile rescue...
www.forgottenfriend.org

Chams drink till there small stomach is full. Mine turns his head to say that is enough. Get a sturdy bransh or plant place it in the shower,aim the shower head at the wall and the cham will get the collected droplets. Put the water warm and keep him in there for about 30 mins to an hour. My cham loves it. good luck Matt Also try to feed him/her silkworms or hornworms the are high in calcium and nice and JUICY. They will help to get some fluids in . I get mine at mulberry farms.

Hi Jesse,

Glad you got him to a vet, but I do have wonder if he did blood work and if not, why not. There are so many things that could be out of whack that will only show up in blood levels (as Carlton pointed out). Was he able to tell just what was wrong with the eyes?

I am not a vet, nor am I there, but in my opinion I would seriously consider the Repta-Aid. If he is eating and digesting the crickets OK, then let him eat as much as he wants for now, but the repta-aid is the specifically for rehydrating (this is why the dosage is crucial). As I think I said, both my bearded dragon and chameleon loved the taste and ate it readily. It is a powder mixed with (hot) water and has the consistency of gravy (lumpy, too!) I put some on the tip of a plastic spoon and put just enough on the mouth to get them to lick it off - after that, it's easy. You might alos consider some softer feeders like silkworms (naturally high in calcium), waxworms (fatty, but OK for a while to get weight back) and even superworms (freshly molted best) as they are quite juicy. Pulling the back legs off the crickets, which are totally useless in the diet) will give him more "food."

I don't think you said what you were supplementing with. Rep-Cal brand calcium/D3 and their vitamin, Herptivite are good products.

Here is reply to some questions you had in any ealrier post:
I've been told by a very experienced friend that mineral oil is a great natural lubricant to help loosen up eye problems. Anyone else have any thoughts on this?

*** In my opinion NO. Mineral oil is, well, mineral based and can actually have a drying effect (many people do not realize this). I would use a vegetable/nut oil. Jojoba oil (my personal favorite b/c it is safe, non-drying and absorbs well), sweet almond. That said, I would only use gentle, warm water sprays rather that any oil w/o knowing what it is.

This may sound like a silly question, but when you suggested "1/2 hour long warm showers will help hydrate " were you talking about putting him in the actual shower, or just filling a spray bottle with warm water and spraying for half an hour, or using a misting system?

Luna LOVED her showers once she was in there. What I did was put a large potted plant with sturdy stems (schefflera, croton) in the tub then turn on the water and let it hit the curtain so the spray bounces off onto the plant so the spray is not too strong. I would put her on the plant and let her climb to where she was comfortable and other than checking the water temp every few minutes (I was obsessed!) I just left her for about 20 minutes (hot water ran out after that). Now, with your guy, he will likely not be able to climb without some help. I would hold him securely in your hand, if he is OK with that, or on a branch/stick. and slowly introduce him to the spray. he may flail his arms at first looking for something else to cling to so make sure he cannot fall. Oh, I would put lots of towels all around the base of the plant and in the tub, this way if he does fall it will be a soft landing. Keep him in there as long as he will stand it. He may not be too happy at first but given the chance may get used to it. He will drink what he wants with the water that drips onto his snout. A note about the water temp, whether spraying, showers, etc. Do the baby formula test by testing the water on the inside of your wrist too make sure it is not too hot (or too cold).

We keep several on hand and right now I'm giving him ZooMed Reptivite which is a good multivitamin and ExoTerra Electrolyte.

*** you need a clacium supplement. Rep-Cal brand Calcium/D3 and their vitamin, Herptivite are good products.

Also I'm replacing the UVB bulb because it's about a year old. good idea

I'm moving the cham from the glass tank to a Reptarium for better airflow, and I have a warm vaporizer for added humidity. I will be spraying him down quite a bit and making sure his basking temp is in the 90s and the rest is 70-80s, with humidity and shoot for humidity around 30-50.

I live in NH (you are in PA, right?) with the dry winter air. I hung white plastic shower curtains on back and sides of Luna's cage. At night I would cover the front, too. This helps to keep in the humidity. You just don't want it wet in the cage at lights out.

Well, I hope this helps (did I cover everything??lol!)and please keep us posted. You may be able to adopt this guy out to someone on the forum once you get him squared away

lele

Luna (gravid) loving her shower!

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Chameleon Help & Resource Info

0.1 Veiled Chameleon - Luna. She's now hanging from her big jungle gym in the sky
1.0 Beardie - Darwin
0.2 felines - Kyndra and Lita
0.1 African Clawed Frog - Skipper
0.1 Mad. Hissers and she is on the loose!
0.1 Chilean Rose Hair Tarantula - Rosa Leigh
0.1 Goliath Bird-Eater Tarantula - Natasha
?.? Pinktoe Tarantula - no name yet

quote]how many large crickets should a cham like this eat every day? Usually he starts out chowing down on them like he's hungry and after five or six spits them out. Is that about normal?[/quote]
Sure it's normal..for him! Every cham is different. If a cham in his current condition eats 4-6 crix every day, then that is truly a success, just as your vet confirmed. As his condition improves, so should his appetite. You can supplement as Lele has pointed out and the eleoctolytes surely won't hurt.
My own chams have different appetites, different schedules, different food preferences and different cranky attitudesat different times. You watch, you learn, you serve. But you already know that, Jesse.
As far as their water intake/hydration is concerned....chams drink and need copious amounts of water! I am very fortunate that my small collection is conditioned to drink from misted leaves and right from the mister nozzle so I can monitor their intake daily. My Mellerii will come right up to one particular branch in his cage to drink from the bottle. When he is full, he bobs his head rapidly and raises it upward. When the Veileds are full, they either turn away, display displeasure, stress colors/actions or retreat to thicker foliage.
Jesse...you and your team do a phenominal job. Thank God you are there.

Hey everyone,

thanks for all your help so far. I haven't had a chance to play around on kingsnake much in the last week because I've been spending a lot of time in the reptile room and a lot of time getting ready for finals week (which starts monday for me).

Anyway I wanted to let you know the chameleon is doing a little better. He is climbing around the cage a lot on his own since we took him out of his original glass tank and set him up in a reptarium, which is one improvement. We are force feeding him every day, around 4 crickets is about all he'll stand for right now. We are also gently force-hydrating him with 0.5-1.0 cc of water from a syringe with very small ammounts of electrolytes mixed in. Once the crickets/water get in his mouth he munches and swallows, but getting in there is still challenging.

I also appreciate the offer from a couple of you to adopt the little guy. I have to be careful what I say about that though, because last time I discussed adoption on kingsnake the "powers that be" removed the entire discussion thread because talking about adoption apparently violates the Terms of Service. So I'm censored from saying anything further about adoption on this discussion forum.

Happy Ending
I just talked to some friends locally who have extensive chameleon experience over the years, even treating eye infections like this one, and they are going to take the little guy in and do their best with him. I sent the new owner this link already so he may be able to send some updates on how things turn out. All in all I'd say things look pretty positive with how he has been responding to treatment, especially considering how hard chameleons can be to turn around.

Thanks again everyone for all your ideas and suggestions!
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Jesse Rothacker
Forgotten Friend Reptile Sanctuary
Find out how YOU can get involved in reptile rescue...
www.forgottenfriend.org