Reptile & Amphibian Forums

how can I tell if a box turtle is dead?

Obviously I'm going to inquire why you ask?

A complete lack of movement, breathing, and righting reflex are the first signs to look for in a dead reptile. Reptiles, begin reptiles, you'll want to look for a good amount of time to be sure.

Additionally, you can then test for a pain reflex. Pinching a toe should bring a withdrawel response, as with the tail. No response should be followed with a harder, more painfull pinch. If the eyes are open, they should flinch or show response if you touch them.

All of the above should be tested on an animal at optimal temperatures to be sure that they are not slowed significantly by cooling. It will take a while for one to warm up if you've found one outside.

Final confirmation can be done at the veterinary office with a ultrasonic doppler to see if the heart is beating.

Ian

I think that your suggestions are right on. I just have something that I think is interesting that you may enjoy. It sounds like you have experience with box turtle rehab since you know about dopplers.
I was given a wild box turtle that was found with an ear abscess. I kept it and performed surgery almost immediately since it was a heavy, healthy, huge male box turtle T.c.c. I used 0.05cc propofol (a pretty small dose for this huge guy). It took about 15 minutes before I could intubate him. The surgery only took 5 minutes, and his heart rate was fine with doppler the whole time. I kept him on 02 and continued to flush the ear, waiting for him to wake up. His heart stopped! We tried Epi, and I breathed for him for about 15 more minutes...nada. This turtle had no heart beat for half an hour! To the point of tears, I brought the surgery light closer to his shell to warm him up a bit more...just to do something. I hadn't slid the doppler in to check in about 5 minutes when he took in a nice gulp of air by himself. I thought it was reflexes, but the doppler showed a steady heart rate. It was an awesome feeling! I still have gitters about sedating turtles since then, but I really don't think that I did anything wrong. I didn't even use Iso or Sevo considering how fast the surgery would be. He is now roaming back out in the woods, hopefully happy, healthy, and hibernating. Turtles are amazing creatures...even when you think they may be dead, don't give up!
Thanks, Ken

Thanks all!

That is exactly why I asked a question: knowing that a turtle can seem dead and still come back to life later on and thinking that there could be people out there that have some more information and experience with turtles. I was not present at the time of the accident otherwise I would have tried to rivive it. Unfortunately I was too late but still hoped that the worse did not happen.

Bojana

Always nice to see a DVM online from time to time I"m just an AHT myself.

0.05mls of propofol? Wow, that is a tiny amount. Anesthesia is a whole different matter in reptiles! On the far other end of the scale (pardon the pun ) are those animals that retain a heart beat way after death. I did a necropsy on a frog and found the heart still beating... over 24 hours post-mortem and even after removal!

Ian

I'm not trying to be a smarta**, but if the heart is still beating, how do you know it was dead?
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0.1.0 ornate box turtle
1.0.0 eastern box turtle
0.1.0 Australian shepard
2.2.0 chickens
3.2.0 children (do I still count the married ones?)
1.0.0 husband

That's always a tough question and unerving even to those who are used to doing necropsy's. The complete lack of responses as described above, for such a lengthy time, without the complication of anesthetics, would verify death. A scan for brain activity would be ideal, but I have yet to see a vet clinic with that at their disposal!

Even so, during the necropsy I survey for responses. No pain for initial incision, none for muscle dissection ect. It's the same done when monitoring anesthetic levels during surgery. If there is any doubt, wait longer or take your animal to the vet...

Ian

The subject of your post might suggest that you are unfamilar with turtle husbandry.... Probe the inner back thigh to observe movement...Lacking this ......

I would wait till rigormortise ( stiff almost unmoveable joints, or hardened position...similar to a piece of wood ) sets in along with no movement along the eyes when touched..whether open or closed. Give him a two day period displaying the above characteristics.

I'm sorry that you needed to ask .
Ric

My vet does a lot of reptile surgery. She recently told me a story about the very first one she did several years ago. The anesthesia can make them appear to be dead so when she thought that the one she was working with appeared to be dead on the operating table she didn't finish the surgery & left it there.
Her husband is a vet too so he was in the building an hour or so later when he came running at her yelling "You have a live one on the table!"
She said since then her experience has been that some of them don't wake up for a couple of days so she never declares one dead until it's had at least 2 days to wake up.
For those not under ansthesia, I'd go through all the steps Ian mentioned before I'd say they are dead.
I hope the person asking hasn't lost one.
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PHRatz

Yup, like I said, anesthesia is a whole different ball game, and the above suggestions, while usefull in accessing anesthetic depth, are not a hard and fast rule for diagnosing death. For non-sedated animals however, the above suggestions should prove adequate. When in doubt, wait longer

Ian

Thanks, Ric