Reptile & Amphibian Forums

what the market will bear. That is what has always happened and that is what will happen next year.

I know that Pete had Jungles on his table fo $5,000 each at the Daytona Expo. When I spoke with Pete, I got the impression that the prices on Jungles were going up because of the Super Jungles that have been produced this year as well as the designer Jungle morphs like the Hypo Jungles, Albino Jungles, and Sunglow Jungles.

A price increase in a morph can happen and is sometimes successful...other times, it is not. Take the Ball Python market for example. One of the few price increases that has actually been successful in the Ball Python market has been the Hypo/Ghost Ball Python. However, there have also been a couple of failed attempts to increase prices - Mojaves and Yellowbellies for example. Prices will fluctuate - that is a given. Whether they go up or down depends on what the market will bear - basic supply and demand.

I think a much more likely expectation is a price stabilization. Price stablizations happen all the time and for various reasons. Once again, take the Ball Python market into consideration. When the Super Pastel Ball Python was produced, prices on Pastels stabilized. This year we saw the Pastel Clown Ball Python and this not only stablized the prices of Clown Ball Pythons but their popularity soared as well. I think it is much more reasonable to expect a price stabilization after a super form is proved out or a new designer morph is introduced.

Case in point - Motley Boas. I don't know what's going to happen with Motley Boas but now that a viable Super form has been produced, I think the prices of Motleys will stop decreasing. They held steady at around $8,000 for several years. Last year Jeremy did prove out that there is in fact a Super form for the Motleys. However, those babies were premature (if I am remembering correctly). People want to see viable, healthy babies and that's what we got this year. The prices went up last year - $8,000 on males but $9,000 to $10,000 on females - but it wasn't succesful. This year, we saw prices on Motleys being around $7,000 to $8,000 on males and as low as $5,500 to $6,500 on females. Now with the production of viable Super Motleys, I think the prices will maybe stabilize at this year's values. Motleys may possibly hold their value at $5,500 to $7,500 for up to another 5 years.

Pete debuted his Jungles in Daytona at $5,000 each for both males and females. I had previously advertised my Jungles at $3,000 for males and $3,500 for females based on last year's prices. Since I had already been advertising them at these prices pre-Daytona, I did not feel it was right or fair to increase the prices after Daytona. I had a short price increase on them during the Expo but decided to stand firm at my original prices after the show. So, as a result of the way I felt, I kept my prices the same.

Now I do have a couple of female Jungle Boas that are priced higher. However, these two girls are my holdback animals. I have had people inquire about hold back animals so I figured that instead of just offering the two, I would offer all four and if someone was willing to pay more in order to get a cleaner or more aberrant patterned animal, then so be it. Basically, I want to keep a minimum of two females and it doesn't really matter to me which two I kept.

I think $6,000 is a little high for a Jungle Boa. But once again, if someone is willing to pay that much, then that's what the animal is worth. It all depends on what the market will bear. If no one is interested in the animal at that price, then the seller will know that $6,000 for a Jungle Boa is not a realistic market price.

What will happen with next year's prices? We won't know until next year. I personally think that prices will stabilize at what they have been. I don't see an increase but I may be wrong. An increased number of available babies will of course affect the price on Jungles but what's the demand like? I have people emailing me about male Jungles right now but unfortunately, I just don't have any more to offer at this time. Let's say prices drop slightly next season to $2,500 for males and $3,000 for females. At these prices, what will the demand be? More and more people are getting into Jungle Boas because of how visually pleasing they are and how awesome the designer morphs can be. If one person drops the price to $2,000 or less (as you suggest) on male Jungle Boas and they sell out immediately at those prices, well now what? They're sold out. IF the rest of the breeders do not follow suit and keep their prices firm at $3,000 what's going to happen? They will probably sell them at $3,000.

Let's also take into consideration, the supply. Yes, a lot of people now have Jungle Boas and several of those people are breeding their Jungles this season. However, how many of them will actually produce? We all know how boas can be. You may see a copulation or two, you might see (what you think) is an ovulation and you could still get nothing. That's just how boas are. They aren't Corn Snakes. So of the six breeders you know in the Bay Area alone that are working with breedable Jungle Boas, how many of those breeders will actually produce babies? Maybe all six...but also...maybe none of them...? Why do the prices on Boas seem a little more stable than the prices on Ball Pythons or Corn Snakes - the supply. Boas can be difficult to breed.

What dictates the market price on an animal? Supply and demand.

Anyways, that's a lot of rambling. I tried to organize it as best as possible but I feel that it's still kind of a jumbly mess - it may have to do with the Nyquil I'm taking for my cold so please excuse anything that doesn't make sense LOL!

Thanks for reading.
Celia
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Celia Chien
www.ExoticsByNature.com

2006 Boa Constrictor Morphs Calendar
2006 Ball Python Morphs Calendar

sorry about that...that Nyquil/Dayquil is strong stuff LOL.

Thanks,
Celia
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Celia Chien
www.ExoticsByNature.com

2006 Boa Constrictor Morphs Calendar
2006 Ball Python Morphs Calendar

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Thanks and take care - Joe Rollo
'Tis not the stongest of the species that will eventually survive, nor the most intelligent, but the one most responsive to change' Charles Darwin

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Thanks and take care - Joe Rollo
'Tis not the stongest of the species that will eventually survive, nor the most intelligent, but the one most responsive to change' Charles Darwin

I don't think the price on the jungles went up because of the super form or else we would of seen something similar with the motleys. I think the price has something to do with how many are produced, that is why I think the price of the Motley dropped this year.

with the Motleys last year. I believe Jeremy had three premature supers in a litter (please correct me if I'm wrong) and I distinctly remember the prices on female Motleys going up. I remember this because I wanted to get a female Motley LOL!

Prices definitely have to do with how many babies are produced. If there are a ton of babies and none of them are selling, it is only natural for people to drop the prices in an attempt to try and sell the babies.

I didn't really see an excess of Motleys being produced this year...? I know a few breeders have produced them but I don't think this year's production would qualify as an excessive amount by any means. So if that's true, why did the price of Motleys drop? Maybe it was just time for it. Like I mentioned, Motleys have been holding steady at $8,000 for several years.

While the price has a lot to do with how many animals are produced, that is not going to be the only factor to determine pricing. If that is the case, there were more Jungle Boas produced this year than in previous years. Why didn't the price plummet drastically then? How could it be that the prices actually went up or stayed the same?

Once again, it has to do with the demand on the animals. Breeders found a suitable market for their animals at the $2,500 to $3,500 (more or less) price range. If this is the case, then why would the price go down any further? The same will be true for next year. Let's say prices are introduced for male Jungle Boas at $2,500 each. If breeders sell them with no problems at this price, there would be no reason to drop the price to less than $2,000. If nobody is interested in them at a 2,500 price tag, then yes, I can see the prices dropping.

If you take supply into consideration, you HAVE TO take demand into the same consideration as well.

Thanks,
Celia
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Celia Chien
www.ExoticsByNature.com

2006 Boa Constrictor Morphs Calendar
2006 Ball Python Morphs Calendar

Thanks for taking your time to talk about this issue. You definitley shed some light on the subject. Hopefully, the price won't drop and I can make some money off my jungle so that I can get me a salmon jungle.

Alex also raised the price on C.A. line motleys after the Super form was produced. I think he went up to 10-12,000 per male. Take care

Paul

I could'nt have said it better and it probably would've takin me two hours to type it LoL. It's all about the supply and demand and what the animal is worth to you. With myself being so pickey about my animals and my hate for speackling and lack of color i've found myself paying much more for peoples holdbacks or pick of the litter even if it was a 1500$ difference. Some people say i'm crazy but then realize down the road that once people see the quality of my stock compaired to others they(costomers)might look more towards buying from me then others with the same thing do to the quality. I'm not saying my stock is the best in the world at all, just that most of the animals in my collection have been selectively purchesed for their superiority over their litter mates. Which I can only hope that that will mean I will have higher quality offspring but thats not a guarantee either. So, like Celia said if someone wants to pay the higher price it must be worth it to the buyer. This is just my opinion on some of the topics above.

Ruben Michel

That is exactly how we feel about it Ruben! I always try to get the absolute nicest stock that I can. That's just how I like to do it. If I'm in the market for a Motley Boa or a Sunglow Boa or whatever other morph catches my eye, I will take a look at what's available and most likely go after what I consider to be the nicest looking animal.

We do the same with our Ball Python collection or our Corn Snake collection or whatever else we are interested in. We were in the market for a Super Pastel Ball Python last year and saw two available at the time. One was priced at $10,000 and was an average looking Super. The other was priced at $15,000 but was absolutely spectacular. He was a personal holdback animal of the breeders. Well needless to say, we went with the $15,000 animal. Why? Because he was spectacular and in our eyes, worth the extra money. The price difference was realistic because you had buyers willing to pay the extra price tag.

Another case in point, our Clown Ball Python is an extremely nice looking animal. He is very reduced pattern with nice coloration. And simply because of the way he looked, we had a pretty long wait list of interested customers for his babies before he was even breeding!

You can also make the argument that regardless of what the animal looks like, it carries the genetics for the morph which is absolutely true. And that is why both the higher priced animals and the lower priced animals WILL sell!

Thanks,
Celia
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Celia Chien
www.ExoticsByNature.com

2006 Boa Constrictor Morphs Calendar
2006 Ball Python Morphs Calendar

I also really believe in buying the best animal you can afford in order to produce the best. It is not a new concept, I am impressed by several others that have done it and/or doing it. Tom Burke comes to mind, too.

Some people say they can just buy a "cheap" salmon/hypo to get the salmon/hypo gene, but then the problem is, you may only produce average salmons/hypo...and see how many are out there already.
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Dave Lee

When I am looking to get an new animal I don't simply go by its genetics. I want to get the best (strongest) bloodlines, I want a trusted breeder, and I want the prettiest animal I can afford. This year I bought my first Leopard. I asked Tracy Barker and Hans Winner (who both had babies available) for pictures of available males and females along with prices. I think I picked through over twenty Leopards before I chose mine, I even asked for the input of others. I ended up spending extra for him, but it was worth it, he has the appearance I like and will hopefully produce that caliber of offspring.

A common example this year are Albino Boas. The prices are just under $1k, and I think they will stay there. At the same time, exceptional stock (like the Burke's High Contrast) stay higher priced, and those animals sell just as quickly if not more. People are realizing the importance of selective breeding. Also, people aren't just concerend about getting the genes for as cheap as possible, they want pretty animal they will enjoy.

Another component that helps to keep Morphs at a stable price is what people are willing to pay for a pet, those not interested in breeding. I honestly feel that anything $2500 and under is in that range, and will stay where it is for a long time.

One part of value that is evident is especially strong in co-dominant and dominant mutations (selective breeding doesn't take extra generations) is simple appearance.
You can get a Salmon/Hypo for $200, but if you want the top of the line you are looking at $3000. I know the higher price is a more probable super, but I have seen F1 in the range of $200-$1500. I think Jungles and Motleys fall into this catagory as well. Jungles are rated on color, contrast, and pattern (which comes last for me). Motleys are also rated on color, contrast, and pattern, and everyone has their own tastes.

Oh well, you get going, and then you can't figure out how to conclude it, so I am done.

Thanks for your input Celia.

I think the price on Jungles can be justified if the supers are something wonderful. In the boa manual, there is a picture section that shows a Jungle from Peter K, and that is the look in my opinion that people are after. I see alot of Jungles getting stripes....or chain link pattern.... Is that what people want?? I do not know what the supers will look like, for sure,..... If anyone has pics of supers....please post. I like the high contrast sharp egded pattern...but the stripes need to stay gone.

I saw the stripe on the Suri's and ...now that is a stripe. So stripes do have a place, I just wish they were not on the Jungles.

This is just my 2 cents....Andy Federico

http://imageevent.com/killerboas/junglexjungle

Thanks, Andy

that the photo in the Boa Constrictor Manual that is labled "Jungle Boa" is actually a Super Jungle Boa. Here are some photos I took of Pete's Super Jungles at the Daytona Expo which you may have already seen...

[img]http://exoticsbynature.com/daytona05/kahl10.jpg[/img

Thanks,
Celia
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Celia Chien
www.ExoticsByNature.com

2006 Boa Constrictor Morphs Calendar
2006 Ball Python Morphs Calendar

Now those are Super jungles....That's something to have. If you look at the link that was posted above by boamorphs1 it shows the super jungles as stripes....although they are very nice, they are really no comparrison. Thanks Celia for posting. Andy Federico

I am not going to go into any long dissertation on this subject because I am now 2 days behind in my husbandry due to being preoccupied with the preparation and launch of my new website by December 15th. So much for my info-Commercial.

Prices? Just a few random teachings and things learned over the years (in no particular order):

- Basic economic principles of Supply & Demand always play a key role. However, as much as it continues to frustrate me and others, this is a hobby industry, and as such, pricing from a business perspective oftentimes gets thrown out the window. I still rely on Supply & Demand to set my prices, NOT what anyone else is doing. I make sure that I know what is going on with the morphs with which I work and freely exchange information with "friendly competition" (yes it exists).

- Price Always Sells. You want to sell something, just lower your price and it will be gone. There are many reasons to do this ... need quick cash, not enough cages, not enough time, lack of patience, and of course, panic. I DO NOT do this. I have too many operating expenses to cover, I have put in too much hard work to get where I am, and I feel I offer quality animals and an exceptional level of all-round service. But once again, this is still a hobby industry.

- Price includes much, much more than simply the cost of an animal. You are buying genetics (a whole other subject), age of animal (neonate, yearling, breeder?) quality, healthy, correctly sexed animals, limited guarantees, safe & dependable shipping, customer service, on-going support, etc. etc. I know I have lost many sales to lower prices, but I have been around a long time, and I plan on being around for years to come. And I know it's trite, but it still holds so true ... "You get what you pay for."

- Inflated Prices often driven by pure "greed". Yes, there is plenty of this going around these days ... way too much hype and way too many mutts (and no I am not referring to every kind of cross-breeding, and no I do not want to go any further with this comment). Throw out all the hype and apply some good ole common sense ... raritiy, basic eye appeal, temperment, how prolific (breedability), etc.

- Bottom Line: They are your animals. You can buy and sell them for anything you want. The market will take care of itself.

I could spend all day here on this subject, but like I started out, I am already behind.

Consider me gone.

bill@gainesreptiles.com

gainesreptiles.com

n/p

Pete Kahl had a SOLD, beautiful clean male jungle on his web-site for only $2500 for a long time (he just took it down). So this past season I figured I could find a clean male with no abberancies for that or a little more. Nope, now they are $5000 for a super clean one. It was frustrating but like Celia said it's all about the supply and demand. Same thing happened to me with the Sharp albinos. Three years ago when I first started looking for one, Brian Sharp's price was $1500 on his web-site. Three years later I paid $3000. Both of the things I have been interested in, the price has doubled before I could get one. Oh well, I just hope those six breeders in the bay area have luck on their side this season. Just a side note: Gray, I will still trade you my soul and house for that amazing amazing male jungle you produced this year. Take care.

Michael Burton
boaevolution

Here is a picture of my DH Sharp strain sunglow that I took a few months ago.