Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Once again I find myself telling people about the crappy year I had. I did this so much in the last 2 months that I created an extra site just to explain all of the mishaps of 2005. I lost alot of snakes. Very disappointed about the majority of animals lost, especially the ones that were more my fault than anything else.

After advice from plenty of people on the mite situation.... I managed to get rid of them. Well. Pretty much get rid of them. The no-pest strips didn't work one bit for me. I could not get my hands on ANY provent a mite, no pet store or supply store anywhere near carried it and as far as I know it is considered a terroristic act to send it through the mail. Therefore I had to come up with a different way to kill those evil SOBs off.

Every infected snake, one at a time, was placed in a rubbermaid container with paper towels moistened with baby oil. Each snake was kept in there for 1 day to 5 days. Every snake put in, was cured of mites afterwards. Not every snake wanted cured obviously, as 3 snakes escaped while being treated. 3 kingsnakes, a CB04 normal striper female cali king, a CB04 albino striped female cali king and a CB02 adult male b/w banded cali king. Which sucks. I have so many cali kings loose in my house right now I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if I found eggs next year lol.

The kings have to be difficult.... The only ones that would strike at me while being wiped down with baby oil, musk me, bite, struggle, whatever. All of the ringneck snakes went easily LOL.

Either way, just wanted to let you all know my collection is pretty much destroyed and there is a good chance you will see less and less of me around here. In the springtime on average I would have about 50 snakes. Well right now I only have 11. Extremely bad year for me, and I don't see how next year could even get better with the financial state I am in right now.

Atleast I still have one of my favorite kings... The CB03 GA female I got from Keith. The only snake in my collection feeding right now.
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Mike
KingPin Reptiles Inc.
www.freewebs.com/mikesnake
www.freewebs.com/badyear2005

No offense, but i think you're doing something terribly wrong! can't pin point what it is but "The only snake in my collection feeding right now." something if def. wrong with that 1 out of 11????

good luck

~ZF
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Bklyn's Finest Brooksi & Goini Fanatic

Maybe I should've said that the others were hibernating LOL. The eastern king has been one of the only willing eaters since the last 2 months. I'm seeing if I could get an adult GA male for next season, if not, she stays out of hibernation too.

Oh and I forgot my two adult melanistic eastern garter snakes that are feeding.
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Mike
KingPin Reptiles Inc.
www.freewebs.com/mikesnake
www.freewebs.com/badyear2005

I've had some similar problems before, but not of that magnitude. A few things I would suggest are:

1) Make sure your snakes are warm. Snakes will regurge if kept too cold, especially when being fed large or unusual food items. Regurging food items takes a lot out of a snake.
2) Deparasitize. You may be feeding your snakes wildcaught prey, but its never a bad idea to knock parasites back.
3) Lice Bedding Spray. Look for this at CVS, or elsewhere. Exact same stuff as Provent A Mite. Call around and ask for this if you have to. This is common stuff. You don't need to leave a snake in baby oil for more than a minute or so. I've used this to kill mites, and as long as they get covered with oil, it can be cleaned off after half an hour or less and all the mites will be killed.
4) Quarantine. Keep new snakes separate from established snakes for at least a couple months, ensuring they aren't showing symptoms of disease, or mites, or anything else before bringing them in with your other snakes.
5) Sterilize containers between occupants. If you're switching snakes to different containers, make sure the one they are being moved to is sterilized with bleach or whatever, even if the previous occupant seemed healthy.
6) Keep less snakes. Keep less and focus on establishing and acclimating the ones you have. I've cut down quite a bit in my collection so I could better take care of my most important animals.

This may seem annoying, ignore it if you want to, I just hate to see so many animals not make it.

I just read through your website and feel horrible.

I'm curious to know though, did you actually have necropsies done to confirm that crypto was the cause of death?

I also want to mention something to keep in mind when you sterilize cages and equipment. The egg stage of crypto is the oocyst, which is viable even after being soaked in full strength bleach. The only cleaning agent that has been proven to kill them is undiluted ammonia. Boiling is also another way to kill them but not freezing.

Probably the most important step is washing everything thoroughly with dishwasher detergent. Soap can dislodge whatever pathogenic microbes it can't kill.
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www.BugChick.com

chickabowwow

Never did 100% confirm it was crypto... But with so many snakes all catching the same disease in the same manner crypto would've been spread, and every snake showing all the symptoms of crypto. Not much else it could be.

Crypto had me wishing I'd never bought any snakes. And unfortunately probably half of the deaths were my fault due to my carelessness, and me not wanting to accept the fact there was crypto in my collection.

I got rid of the disease fully after the last snake died a couple months ago. Through out every cage that ever housed a snake with crypto or where a regurgitation took place.
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Mike
KingPin Reptiles Inc.
www.freewebs.com/mikesnake
www.freewebs.com/badyear2005

Actually there are a lot of things that it could have been besides crypto. Bacterial infections can mimic the same symptoms especially because they go undetected (therefore untreated). There are also a ton of other protozoans that wouldn't respond to Flagyl or Panacur treatments. Considering how quickly your animals died, it sounds like there was more going on than just crypto, but at any rate, I'm sorry you had to deal with such a devastating loss.
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www.BugChick.com

chickabowwow

OK, go to the food store. Many have a pet section, a common brand of pet stuff is Hartz, buy a container of flea and mite powder for cats, sprinkle in cage, and you done with mites. I have used this for about 40yrs, with no problems. About 15yrs ago, I suggested this to a big time breeder of reptiles(all types) in Cali and he now buys it from the factory, by the case, hahahahahahaha.

Also, all failures in captivity are your fault. Not some of them. The best way to prevent failures in captivity is to take ownership of them. Then you can learn. If you deny they are your fault, then how on earth are you going to learn to prevent them from happening. Besides, who cares whos fault it is, that sir is only rationalizing. If a captive fails, it fails, it surely does not care whos fault it is. It may make you a better keeper if you learn to not place blame, but except all events as learning events. As in, your put them in cages, then its always your fault. Sorry for your loses. FR

I was going to mention harts cat flea and tick poweder. Everyting i clean the cages i sprinkle a tad here and there in the cages. I also use it in new born cages and it has no ill effects. The best thing is its cheap and works good.

how long have you been keeping snakes. I noticed you oldest was an 03. Did any of the deceased snakes make it to a vet to find out 100% what the cause of death was. I can't see 1 bad shed killing a snake so i would think to look elseware. As far as a batch of bad mice , did they smell that will tell you if there bad and did you send any of those mice in for testing to see if they were contaminated with a poison or what not. After reading this post and the webpage i didn't find any answers for 100% this was the cause.

I am not sure who your directing the question to. I have bred snakes since 1964. And have used that product for nearly all that time. But I rarely get mites as I live in the desert and its to dry here. They mainly come in on new snakes and rarely can the mites go from one cage to another(to dry). But it has happened.

I have killed/murdered snakes in about a million ways, but I cannot attribute any to flea and tick powder. Some died of old age, but most from dumb things I do or don't do(husbandry mistakes). FR

it said np lol did you look

how long have you been keeping snakes. I noticed you oldest was an 03.

Actually my oldest is a CB02. Until a couple years ago, the majority of my snakes were WC. I think my longest reigning captive was a shorthead garter snake I had for 8 years. I've been keeping snakes for 15 years. Just never ran into mites.

Did any of the deceased snakes make it to a vet to find out 100% what the cause of death was.

Nope.

I can't see 1 bad shed killing a snake so i would think to look elseware.

I didn't blame any death on a bad shed.... If you are referring to the Louisiana milk snake, I am pretty sure it drowned.

As far as a batch of bad mice , did they smell that will tell you if there bad and did you send any of those mice in for testing to see if they were contaminated with a poison or what not.

No I've had a batch of bad mice, and I know the smell, these hoppers didn't smell funny at all. But I thawed a couple out. Cut the tails off of them and fed them to the corn snakes, and the next day 1 by 1, every corn died. My eastern kingsnake also ate some, and he died as well.
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Mike
KingPin Reptiles Inc.
www.freewebs.com/mikesnake
www.freewebs.com/badyear2005

new arrivals? My snakes get fresh tubs on the 1st of every month and incomings get quarantined for a min. of 2 wks.
and if you're interested i will email you instructions on how to use no-pest strips.

Hey Jet...

The only time I got new enclosures was when I was getting rid of the crypto and whenever a snake infected with mites gets cured...

I've only quarantined recently... Before then, rarely did.

You live you learn, you feel idiotic for every mistake made.

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Mike
KingPin Reptiles Inc.
www.freewebs.com/mikesnake
www.freewebs.com/badyear2005

Everybody that recommended no-pest strips gave me the same exact instructions. Didn't work at all.
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Mike
KingPin Reptiles Inc.
www.freewebs.com/mikesnake
www.freewebs.com/badyear2005

My method for using strips works great! You must have got a hold of some faulty instructions or maybe you're brainwashed into not believing they don't work. Don't think your mite problem is finished, they'll prolly return. Good-Luck anyway.

don't use strips if you have Thamnophis they get paralyzed from it.

You serious?

If so. I am really glad I took my garter snakes out of their enclosures before putting no-pest strips in there.

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Mike
KingPin Reptiles Inc.
www.freewebs.com/mikesnake
www.freewebs.com/badyear2005

Yes, garters can be messed up from "vapona" strips and so can certain pythons, to think that i used to de-tick wc lizards by the gallon with a 1" sq. chunk of this stuff, with no ill effects on them is the only reason i would still use it on kingsnakes.

Did you build that? Looks like you use the same rubbermaids that I use. From what I've seen just trying them out at the stores... The larger the rubbermaid, the easier the lid comes off..
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Mike
KingPin Reptiles Inc.
www.freewebs.com/mikesnake
www.freewebs.com/badyear2005

I use the sterilite brand, "rubber maid" likes to change it's tooling to often.

Kingpin Reptiles, Don't you think you should quarantine your collection for good period of time with all the problems you have been having. Just a thought.

But any snake I advertise is 100% clean...

The erythristic garter I am advertising was far from any mites, never caught them, never will.

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Mike
KingPin Reptiles Inc.
www.freewebs.com/mikesnake
www.freewebs.com/badyear2005

How can you expect anyone to buy a snake from a guy that has a mite infestation in his collection.

Actually I haven't sold a snake in a couple of months. I just don't have what people want anymore and I haven't made an effort to get new stuff to sell.

A couple of my snakes are hopefully going soon... Lot of interested buyers.

And not everyone knows there is a mite infestation in my collection... Besides, all of my clean snakes are a floor down from where the mites are.
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Mike
KingPin Reptiles Inc.
www.freewebs.com/mikesnake
www.freewebs.com/badyear2005

I know you have the ability to be a top-notch snakekeeper. A rack system with extra tubs will make the lives of your snakes much easier and your life too. Good-Luck again.

>>Did any of the deceased snakes make it to a vet to find out 100% what the cause of death was.
>>
>>Nope.

I know that's overly simplistic, but once, five or six or more years ago, one of my female hondos died unexpectedly at the beginning of the breeding season. Less than a week later, another died. And another. I had them tested, the pathogen was never identified. But at the suggestion of a vet, after about the 10th death--one or two were dying every week-- i administered some medication and the deaths stopped. That's not absolute proof, but it strongly supports the conclusion there was a bacteria or whatever that was killing the snakes, and that was knocked out by the meds.

Sometimes organisms are present that COULD be harmful but aren't in a rigorous, otherwise healthy animal. Weakened or stressed, the bad bugs can take over. I don't believe that was the case in my collection, it took a bunch of proven breeders, there had been no losses during brumation, perhaps it was introduced by an extra female i bought to add to the breeding groups, i don't know. But the key is to try to find the cause.

While the vet never ID'd the cause in my case (ID'ing it is important because that can point to the medication that will be most effective) I always urge people to get the first animal that dies tested, because you never know whether it's an isolated incident or the first of many. (just fyi, i always have fecals tested each spring from a random sampling of my adults, just to be safe. It's good to be proactive.)

terry

I've only heard of that happening in large collections of zoos. BUMMER!!! Time for me to buy a microscope and learn how to do fecal floats.

>>OK, go to the food store. Many have a pet section, a common brand of pet stuff is Hartz, buy a container of flea and mite powder for cats, sprinkle in cage, and you done with mites. I have used this for about 40yrs, with no problems. About 15yrs ago, I suggested this to a big time breeder of reptiles(all types) in Cali and he now buys it from the factory, by the case, hahahahahahaha.

excellent suggestion, frank.

for people using rack systems, it's worth mentioning: I sprinkle the flea and mite powder in each of the "slots" the drawers go in, all along all the edges, wherever wood joins wood and there's a crack. Then i put it in the bottom edges & corners of each tray, before adding substrate, OR after substrate i'll sprinkle the powder on the edges & corners & ruffle it slightly with my fingers so it's mixed in a little.

terry